BBTv Discussion: Surprise and Innocence

[Skanky Vamp]

Ok peeps, just watched the episodes.. what did you think of them? Few things I never noticed before, in Surprise when Buffy dreams of Dru, she tells Angel and says 'It may be her, we never actually saw a body" no, of course you never saw a body as vamps turn to dust.

Then in Innocence, as many times as I watched that I never made the Judge connection to the Witch King of Lord of the Rings. There was an interesting parallel there.

And back to Buffy's dream in Surprise- anyone ever figure out why Willow was the organ grinder?

Okay, let's get the ball rolling!

 

[Kean]

I always loved how in Buffy's dream Angel whispers 'my soul' as he crumbles to dust. Just something that always stands out to me.

Two fantastic episodes by the way. Really, top notch from writers to actors.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Although David wasnt selling the move very well, you could tell at the end when Buffy kicks a field goal (so to speak) he really was enjoying his turn as Angellus. I think digging into that aspect allowed David to find the subtle parts of Angel that came in Season Three. And who wanted want to be the hot steamy leading man love interest in one scene and the archdude of bad in the next? It had to liberate him.
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Two fantastic episodes by the way. Really, top notch from writers to actors.

Yes, it really was a great one-two punch. And then considering just two episodes ago you had WML pts I & II.

 

[Kean]

BD was almost too good as Angelus. No one, Joss and writers included, expected him to pull off Angelus the way he did. He was scene stealing, such a change from what he had done as Angel.

 

[yellowcrayon]

*glowers at Sco* That was my point about the Witch King. 😛

Okay, okay, I'm gonna go on about the ring again.

Firstly, as Kali, Stuck, CF and scobro discovered, I love claddaghs, and I love the presence of the claddagh in these episodes.

When she's given the claddagh, there is the essence that in giving it to her, Angel is promising that he will return to her. She reciprocates this in the act of kissing his ring. This is such a poignant scene, considering what is going on in the grand scheme of things. Angel *is* going away, but he *does* return. A return that is also signified by the ring, for it is after she gives it to him (in a sense) that he returns.

What especially struck me as well was the meaning behind the ring. The hands, friendship, the crown, loyalty, the heart, love. Love, friendship and loyalty are the three significant things not only in Buffy's relationship with Angel, but with Giles, Willow, Xander, Cordy, etc. These three things are what set her apart from all the Slayers before her, and from everything she seeks to destroy as the Slayer. They are also what separate Angel from Angelus. The ability to love, have friends, and remain loyal is something that was torn from him when he lost his soul, and it is something that was returned to him when he had his soul thrust back.

In some ways, because of this, Angelus is a reflection of who Buffy should be (well, without the murder bit... unless you completely reflect it and where Angelus sees the need to drain whatever human crosses his path, Buffy is supposed to stake any vampire that does the same). And though I don't know if Buffy realizes this, it's one of her first tastes of what she should have been, something seen in Kendra, the First Slayer, and to an extent in Faith as well.

I think it's fascinating how the ideas that Buffy is rebelling against from Welcome to the Hellmouth to The Chosen can be summed up in one small object. A single ring contains the essence of not only Buffy and Angel's relationship, but the entire point of the show. When you think about it, in a way, it gives Surprise/Innocence a much deeper meaning.

And on the side... is it just me, or was Joyce drinking blood out of that huge tea cup in the Bronze in the dream? Never noticed that before.

 

[Kean]

*glowers at Sco* That was my point about the Witch King. 😛

Okay, okay, I'm gonna go on about the ring again.

Firstly, as Kali, Stuck, CF and scobro discovered, I love claddaghs, and I love the presence of the claddagh in these episodes.

When she's given the claddagh, there is the essence that in giving it to her, Angel is promising that he will return to her. She reciprocates this in the act of kissing his ring. This is such a poignant scene, considering what is going on in the grand scheme of things. Angel *is* going away, but he *does* return. A return that is also signified by the ring, for it is after she gives it to him (in a sense) that he returns.

What especially struck me as well was the meaning behind the ring. The hands, friendship, the crown, loyalty, the heart, love. Love, friendship and loyalty are the three significant things not only in Buffy's relationship with Angel, but with Giles, Willow, Xander, Cordy, etc. These three things are what set her apart from all the Slayers before her, and from everything she seeks to destroy as the Slayer. They are also what separate Angel from Angelus. The ability to love, have friends, and remain loyal is something that was torn from him when he lost his soul, and it is something that was returned to him when he had his soul thrust back.

In some ways, because of this, Angelus is a reflection of who Buffy should be (well, without the murder bit... unless you completely reflect it and where Angelus sees the need to drain whatever human crosses his path, Buffy is supposed to stake any vampire that does the same). And though I don't know if Buffy realizes this, it's one of her first tastes of what she should have been, something seen in Kendra, the First Slayer, and to an extent in Faith as well.

I think it's fascinating how the ideas that Buffy is rebelling against from Welcome to the Hellmouth to The Chosen can be summed up in one small object. A single ring contains the essence of not only Buffy and Angel's relationship, but the entire point of the show. When you think about it, in a way, it gives Surprise/Innocence a much deeper meaning.

And on the side... is it just me, or was Joyce drinking blood out of that huge tea cup in the Bronze in the dream? Never noticed that before.

A girl after my own heart!

I don't do jewellery but I always always wear my claddagh ring, I feel kinda naked without it.

Being Irish I just love what it represents and means and I love that they brought that to the show. Especially since Angel is from Galway (home of the Claddagh) It just makes it that much richer a methaphor.

A lot of people (ahem...Bangels) say that Angel giving Buffy the ring and them consumating their relationship that night was in essence their wedding night. The Claddagh was initially intended as a wedding ring, when Angel says it means you belong to someone, you really do.

I don't know if I buy into that but do you think the writers knew the backround (all of it) of the Claddagh when they decided to use it?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

do you think the writers knew the backround (all of it) of the Claddagh when they decided to use it?

I would imagine so. I cant believe they would randomly draw something so meaningful without doing research. I am sure they have tons of little Gileses whose noses are at an eternal scruntch from being buried in books..

I never noticed Joyce drinking blood.
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Firstly, as Kali, Stuck, CF and scobro discovered, I love claddaghs

I didn't.. all I really heard from you was 'nerd talk, nerd talk, nerd tal- witch king, nerd talk'

 

[yellowcrayon]

A girl after my own heart!

I don't do jewellery but I always always wear my claddagh ring, I feel kinda naked without it.

Being Irish I just love what it represents and means and I love that they brought that to the show. Especially since Angel is from Galway (home of the Claddagh) It just makes it that much richer a methaphor.

A lot of people (ahem...Bangels) say that Angel giving Buffy the ring and them consumating their relationship that night was in essence their wedding night. The Claddagh was initially intended as a wedding ring, when Angel says it means you belong to someone, you really do.

I don't know if I buy into that but do you think the writers knew the backround (all of it) of the Claddagh when they decided to use it?

Hehe, yes, I love my claddagh. I had a plain one, and then Seraphim gave me one with a sapphire heart as my engagement ring. 😉

Hmm... I never thought of it like that. But yes, there is definitely that idea present. I wonder if her wearing the white gown that she did in one dream is also a way of echoing that. She wore a lot of pale pinks, creams and whites during Surprise. Then, when Angel left, she was still wearing light colours, save for the black mesh shirt, but it was still mesh and as such had an element of light present. Only after she realized that Angel wasn't the same did she turn to wearing dark colours... ones present for the rest of Innocence.

I don't know for certain, but it always seemed to me that with the amount of symbolism inherent surrounding the claddagh and the entirety of the two episodes that it'd just be too impossible of a coincidence for Joss Whedon to not have known at the very least a great deal of the background surrounding the claddagh.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I meant all the OTHER nerd talk! and i know you were engaged before you knew Buffy because DH is the one with taste enough to introduce you.

 

[Kean]

Hehe, yes, I love my claddagh. I had a plain one, and then Seraphim gave me one with a sapphire heart as my engagement ring. 😉

Hmm... I never thought of it like that. But yes, there is definitely that idea present. I wonder if her wearing the white gown that she did in one dream is also a way of echoing that. She wore a lot of pale pinks, creams and whites during Surprise. Then, when Angel left, she was still wearing light colours, save for the black mesh shirt, but it was still mesh and as such had an element of light present. Only after she realized that Angel wasn't the same did she turn to wearing dark colours... ones present for the rest of Innocence.

I don't know for certain, but it always seemed to me that with the amount of symbolism inherent surrounding the claddagh and the entirety of the two episodes that it'd just be too impossible of a coincidence for Joss Whedon to not have known at the very least a great deal of the background surrounding the claddagh.

That is a very good observation about her clothing, especially the white dress. Once Angel is gone she reverts to very dark colours, sombre...like a widow in mourning almost.

I have to agree about Joss and the writers too, they must of known which makes me wonder about the 'marriage night' theory that has been thrown up.
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Also, just to clarify...my Claddagh obsession has nothing to do with Bangel. I was given my first Claddagh by my aunt for my First Holy Communion, when I was seven! I've loved them ever since.

I'm an insane Bangel freak...but I am not THAT insane Bangel freak!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I just watched them tonight! Two of my favourites episode from season 2 plus Becoming Part II. I can say my favourite episodes ever 🙂
Surprise - I love line "Then I like seeing you at bedtime" 🙂 Surprise party for Buffy was really nice, and this episode is big turning point for Bangel and for show itself.
Innocence - I thing Bangel sex scene is fascinating. It's not sexy, it's full of love.. and this episode is on of the sadest in whole show, well for me 🙂
And seeing Angel that way, it was weird, but David did that very well.