BBTV Discussion Thread: Passion and Killed by Death

Skanky Vamp

Skanky Vamp

Sniffin' the Slayer
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
26,460
Black Thorn
Ok peeps, just watched the episodes.. what did you think of them?

Okay, let's get the ball rolling!
 
Y
yellowcrayon
I like your sig. I think that's the booze. Going to bed now. ;)
Passion's really heartbreaking - it's so painful watching Jenny dying like that. Oh, I hate Angelus for that! And it was pleasantly interesting to see Jenny at her gypsy witchy form. Too bad such potentially cool arc had never gotten chance to develop.

Killed by Death - now, I can't really explain why I rewatch it quite often. I have hospitals, it wasn't way too interesting, but there was bunch of cool one-liners. Whatever. : erm :
 
I have numerous issues with Jennys death in Passion.
Let's first start with Jennys death itself. I feel it was well deserved. If Jenny had been more open and honest about her background and the curse put on Angel then Angelus would have never been let loose. In theory she is responsible for freeing Angelus, thus, brought her death upon herself. It is the whole Frankenstienian effect.

Second we can discuss the showing of her death. I have always thought it should not have been shown. You should leave her at the high school and nothing else is shown. The impact of seeing her dead body and understating the pain Giles felt would have been far greater. But by showing her death the fan was prepared and was, more or less, already grieving. To feel what Giles felt at the exact moment would have been far more powerful. The events of Jennys death could have easily been revealed in a flashback fashion when Giles confronts Angelus in the warehouse. Besides a bragging Angelus describing in a voice over the details of what he did and watching them onfold on the screen would have just been.. masterful.

Third, if you were going to show her die, have Angel do it. Joss originally wrote that Angelus kill her wearing his 'Angel' face but felt that would be too much for the fan to forgive, thus, Angelus killed her. I disagree, if it was Angel's face, the same Angel that people trusted and thought they understood, to see that face kill her would again have had a far bigger impact. You would know that not only was Buffy going to have to kill Angelus but Angel as well.
 
GrrrRruff said:
I have numerous issues with Jennys death in Passion.
Let's first start with Jennys death itself. I feel it was well deserved. If Jenny had been more open and honest about her background and the curse put on Angel then Angelus would have never been let loose. In theory she is responsible for freeing Angelus, thus, brought her death upon herself. It is the whole Frankenstienian effect.

Second we can discuss the showing of her death. I have always thought it should not have been shown. You should leave her at the high school and nothing else is shown. The impact of seeing her dead body and understating the pain Giles felt would have been far greater. But by showing her death the fan was prepared and was, more or less, already grieving. To feel what Giles felt at the exact moment would have been far more powerful. The events of Jennys death could have easily been revealed in a flashback fashion when Giles confronts Angelus in the warehouse. Besides a bragging Angelus describing in a voice over the details of what he did and watching them onfold on the screen would have just been.. masterful.

Third, if you were going to show her die, have Angel do it. Joss originally wrote that Angelus kill her wearing his 'Angel' face but felt that would be too much for the fan to forgive, thus, Angelus killed her. I disagree, if it was Angel's face, the same Angel that people trusted and thought they understood, to see that face kill her would again have had a far bigger impact. You would know that not only was Buffy going to have to kill Angelus but Angel as well.
Click to expand...

You made some very interesting points and I can definitely see your reasons, but I have to disagree.
Firstly, Joss has often said the reason he made us watch Angelus kill Jenny was because he wanted us to realize that Angel was gone, and a monster was left in his place. He wanted us to realize that Angelus was a killer and he would show no mercy. I can't remember if it was in the commentary or if I heard it in an interview, but he said that was one reason Angelus snapped her neck instead of draining her; he wanted the fans to know that Angelus was so evil he just reveled in murdering her; he wanted the violence of it, not the lifeforce of her blood.
I think we had to see the death, to make Giles' pain all the more agonizing. We knew the moment he walked up to his door to hear the opera music playing that it was not the scene he was expecting walking through that door, and it was heartbreaking from the very start of the scene. That was exactly the gutwrenching agony Joss liked to inflict on us as fans in order to make us feel what the characters felt in the moment. 🙂
 
I'll have to do this in two parts as I have an appointment at the jobcentre in a bit!

Passion is one of my favourite episodes.

Although it's so sad you still have the "buffy-esque" moments in it - such as Cordelia asking Willow if she knew she had no fish in her tank, or our favourite little slayer's one-liners. Without bits such as this I don't feel it would have been such a powerful episode, as they reinforce the fact that it is our favourite characters this is happening too. When an episode gets all wrapped up in the dark and gloomy sometimes it can feel a little surreal, or like it's not really happening, so keeping in stuff like that really enhanced it, I felt. Although, I could be completely alone in that and talking absolute crap!

I love Angelus' soliloquy throughout the episode - although I haven't met many people that don't. I think it's really well done and the writers did an excellent job of not making it feel cheesy or distract from what's going on in the episode too much.

Jenny's death, being the main "thing" in the episode, obviously needs to be touched on. I feel for her in the fact that she obviously felt truly remorseful about what happened to/with Angel, but like people have said before me, she kinda bought it on herself. I don't think Joss could've got away with killing any of the other characters (well, aside from the core four + Cordelia, the only other one that would've made such a big impact was Joyce), although it would have been interesting if that'd've happened. But if it was one of them, then I don't think Buffy would have found it in her heart to forgive Angel later through the series', and I doubt we'd've had our favourite spin-off as not many viewers would either!
 
I liked "passion" a lot and it is one of my favorite episodes in the second season. My favorite part of the episode is Angelus's narration about passion. In an odd way I thought it allowed me to feel a little bit of sympathy for him despite what he does. He seems enslaved by his passion just like, one could argue, he was enslaved by his soul. Almost like he has no contorl over the things he does. For me it worked as away to make feel a little bit of sympathy for him. Not a lot of sympathy, but some. Most if it taken away when he killed Jenny Calender.

I was sad when Jenny Calender died because I wanted to know how her and Giles where going to end up, but I think she was the only one who could die. Other than the fact that she lied about who she was, she seemed the only person that Angelus could kill and still let the we, the fans, welcome Angel back when his soul is returned. We weren't really attached to her as much as the rest of the group. Since we weren't really attached, I don't think it matters what "face" he wore when he killed her. I think we still would have accpted Angel back even if he had worn his "angel face" when he killed her.
 
One part in me hates that Jenny dies in passion.
I would have liked to see the relationship between her and Giles develop more.
Maybe it's too easy to say that, but I think it's also too easy to kill her off. However I do understand what effect Joss would have wanted to reach with it.
There was more for her in this story.
I would also have liked to see what roll she could fullfil to Buffy later. Would there still be conflict, wouldn't there be?
And as one of you said: the gypsy role is quite interesting.
 
i hate the that jenny got killed and that he didnt drain her he snaped her neck that was just sick and trully evil but thats angelus for you.I also hated that he left her in giles bed so that he could find her there. he was so sick doing that.

killed by death!
I loved this in some ways there was a bit in buffys past that you got to see and you got to see her scared and that is just something you almost never see is heer scared i love how the monster looked too it was great!
 
Passion is one of my favourite episodes of s2. I absolutely love it. Especially those speeches of Angel. When Willow hears Jenny's dead... that was heartbreaking
I love Killed By Death too, but I can't really remember that episode. I have to rewatch it.

My 1000th post!
 
I
InsaneMystic
four digits karma! :)
i thought it was really disturbing to see jenny get killed like that, but I thought it was really necessary to show how ruthless angelus was. didn't really care much about the romantic build up between giles and jenny but it was cool to see giles step up and do something for her.

I don't really like hospitals and this episode reminded me of freddy krueger from ANIES, without the claws. The episode was alright.
 
Passion- I never had problem with Jenny's death, yeah it was sad, but I was mad because she never said anything, and I don't know why. I can't see any good reason why she was keeping that a secret, because she knew if Angelus came back a lot of people would be killed. But this episode itself is beautiful, one of my favourite, and I love Angel's Passion speech, I have it in my memory 🙂
Killed by Death - When I was little I loved that episode, because it was scary. Der Kinderstod was every day monster.
 
I think the Passion episode is one of the best in S2 as well. I had forgot Angel's speech about passion, and when I watched it yesterday I couldn't help but think how nice that thing was included! But actually Jenny's death wasn't really bothering me, because I never really cared about her as an important character - she always seemed so cold to me. But it was Giles' reaction when he found her dead that was so heartbreaking and I felt so sorry for him the moment he found the note "upstairs" and he looks so happy, but you know that his joy will turn into misery in just seconds. That scene truly shows Angelus' cruelty to perfection.

The episode Killed By Death always seemed SO frightening to me when I was younger, but when I watched again now I'm older it wasn't really scary, maybe because I could still remember all the scary scenes, like when the little boy walks past Buffy's room and the monster walks after him. My sister had forgot that scene and got scared, haha. But I think it's a nice episode because we get to see a different side of Buffy and the whole set for the events is in a hospital, which is kind of new too.
Btw, do anyone know why Angel brings Buffy white roses in the hospital? I just thought it might mean something.
 
I love Passions but it was really one of the hardest deaths to watch (Jenny) because there was such a chase before and then Giles finding her in the end, one of the best written eps IMO.

And Killed By Death is one of my fave episodes ever and I have no idea why! I have just always loved it!
 
Reviving this thread, cause I can.

I watched Passion today and it's just so sad, I don't know. I loved Jenny and even if the Jana storyline was stupid, it was able to just say to me, "Jenny's dead. Angelus killed her. This is where the Angelus arc REALLY starts." Buffy has said previously to this that Angelus WILL die, but she's never shown the ability to do it until now, and I feel she would've done it if Giles didn't go ahead of her. Drusilla is great in this ep aswell. (Cordy is hilarious. 😀) Also, the breakdown scene with Will and Buffy is just unbelievably gorgeous and well acted. The two girls loved Jenny and Angelus killed her, Buffy falling down the wall and Willow going into tears is just ugh, so sad.

Killed By Death pales in absolute comparison to Passion. I love it as an ep and the Angelus vs. Xander in this episode. Willow is again awesome. I love Cordy and Giles in this episode and I don't know, it was just a great episode, but like I said. Pales in comparison to Passion.

The season didn't reach Passion level until Becoming Part 1 & 2. I think they meant to do this aswell. It makes you think though. It gives you four main episodes where Angelus is shown. Of course, he shows largely in this episode, I Only Have Eyes For You and Phases are also important Angelus episodes. However, the episodes that focus on the key arc of the season, which involves Angel, his turn into Angelus, and Buffy's realization about him. The episodes which completely revolve around that are only Surprise, Passion, Becoming Part 1 and Becoming Part 2. I think it makes the season better and it shocks me that people rate the season so well knowing this, but it definitely is understandable it being rated so well because these episodes are great.

Yes, this post was longer than how long I expected it to be, meh. I had stuff to say! 😀
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom