"Because I'm Not Ready..."

[Robb Stark]

There is no way anyone, from a narrative perspective, could have worn that amulet but Spike by that point in the series. Could Angel or Faith have done it from a purely in-story perspective? I believe so, but that wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying from a viewing perspective.

I really agree with [MENTION=8314]Silverspike[/MENTION]. Faith is a great character, but she was hardly relevant to the plot and hadn't been for four seasons. Angel, aside from being the lead on another show, hadn't been Buffy's primary love interest for some time (even if they always made a point of keeping it alive). While Angel is my favorite character and I root for Bangel more than any other ship', it had to be Spike.

 

[thetopher]

It was purely a 'what if' people, calm down. 🙂

I was saying what would've happened if Spike had done the decent thing and left. From a narrative stand-point Faith could've easily taken his place.
But from a character stand-point it would've have had half the same impact or emotive sense, I agree with that.

Plus, @Robb Stark is right, is was very satisfying to watch Spike getting incinerated at the end of 'Chosen'

 

[Kean]

There is no way anyone, from a narrative perspective, could have worn that amulet but Spike by that point in the series. Could Angel or Faith have done it from a purely in-story perspective? I believe so, but that wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying from a viewing perspective.

I really agree with [MENTION=8314]Silverspike[/MENTION]. Faith is a great character, but she was hardly relevant to the plot and hadn't been for four seasons. Angel, aside from being the lead on another show, hadn't been Buffy's primary love interest for some time (even if they always made a point of keeping it alive). While Angel is my favorite character and I root for Bangel more than any other ship', it had to be Spike.

Angel or Faith wearing the amulet still makes for a compelling story. They are too big and important as characters with too much influence for it to not count. Under the terms of who wears the amulet, there are still huge character and verse moments possible if either one of them wears it.

Angel wears it and there is the potential for fantastic scenes between him, Buffy, Faith and maybe Giles too. Not to mention what it would have meant for the 5th season of ATS. I always looked at it as W&H sending him to Sunnydale with the intent that he would stay and fight with Buffy, that he would wear it. Thus, rendering him totally under their control come S5.

With Faith, it would be even more satisfying to see Buffy acknowledge her as a champion and trust her with that role, especially after what had happened in the previous episodes. Faith making that sacrifice would have worked so well. Faith had already made the call to atone for her crimes by staying in jail, not to mention her realisation of what being The Slayer really felt like when they kicked Buffy out. Going out to save everyone would have been a natural progression of her redemptive arc.

Even Buffy wearing the amulet works wonderfully. She sacrifices herself, shares (as she believes) her power and so no longer has to be The Slayer, and she finally, once and for all, closes the Hellmouth.

Either one of the options would have supplied a very satisfying story that can either work as a stand alone end to a character narrative, or as the basis of the next chapter on AtS.

 

[white avenger]

From a narrative stand-point Faith could've easily taken his place.

Except for four little words:

Buffy didn't trust Faith.

Faith was still the girl who sided with the Mayor, who stole her body, who bedded her boyfriend, and who planned to kill her mother. She could be forgiving of Spike because, with a soul, she didn't see him as the same person who tried to rape her, but, as much as I would like to see Buffy and Faith as real, true friends, it just hasn't happened yet. Hopefully someday, but not yet.

Even if Spike had done what some consider "the decent thing," and left town, or if he had never returned from Africa at all, Buffy wouldn't trust Faith to wear the amulet.

Angel is a different story entirely. Him, she trusted. She would have given him the amulet (I know, he had it already, but I'm being rhetorical here) kissed him on the cheek, whispered into his ear, "With your shield or on it," rhetorically speaking again, walked into the hellmouth by his side, and smiled proudly as she ran across the rooftops and he crumbled to ashes.

But not Faith, no matter who else was or wasn't there to do the honors.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Angel or Faith wearing the amulet still makes for a compelling story. They are too big and important as characters with too much influence for it to not count. Under the terms of who wears the amulet, there are still huge character and verse moments possible if either one of them wears it.

Completely agree, I'm not mad on the idea of Angel wearing the amulet, I think it's a little messy bring him back to die and go back to his own show where he's the hero.

But other characters actually cared about Faith, which could have given the death at the end more weight, plus it would have been great to see that moment between Faith and Buffy, since they are both Slayers and it's something Buffy had done before, there was potential for a real moment between them.
Plus Faith had actually proven herself a champion, she turned her life around and took responsibility for what she'd done.

Buffy didn't trust Faith.

I dont agree with that at all.

She didn't LIKE Faith, liking her and trusting her are two different things.

I dont think Buffy would have chose to leave in Empty Places if she didn't trust Faith. I also dont think she would have let her handle the Scythe if she didn't trust her.

I think the little bits between them in the last few episodes set up that there is a base line trust/respect there between them, she may not like Faith, so may enjoy seeing her her punched, but that doesn't mean she doesn't trust her.

 

[Kean]

I don't think trust had very much to do with Buffy's stance on Faith, not in S7. I think she knew that she could trust Faith to fight, trust her to play her part. I think it had everything to do with forgiveness. I don't think Buffy was ready to offer that to Faith, and that is what giving the amulet to Faith would have meant to Buffy. I think she still needed to hold on to that righteous indignation, that victimised feeling gnawing at her gut, because I think it fit in with how she was feeling about just all of her friendships at the time. Not that she'd admit it.

S10 Spoilers

Spoiler

I think we finally see Buffy extend the olive branch to Faith in S10 because she finally owed Faith as much (if not mored) than Faith owed her. They were even.

 

[janas]

Buffy trusts enough to Faith, so that at the end of season eight, Buffy asks her to do something that, at that time, she can't do or she fails to do. There is more nothing ancient jealousy or resentment, I really loved that moment between Buffy and Faith.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think trust had very much to do with Buffy's stance on Faith, not in S7. I think she knew that she could trust Faith to fight, trust her to play her part. I think it had everything to do with forgiveness. I don't think Buffy was ready to offer that to Faith, and that is what giving the amulet to Faith would have meant to Buffy. I think she still needed to hold on to that righteous indignation, that victimised feeling gnawing at her gut, because I think it fit in with how she was feeling about just all of her friendships at the time. Not that she'd admit it.

S10 Spoilers

Spoiler

I think we finally see Buffy extend the olive branch to Faith in S10 because she finally owed Faith as much (if not more) than Faith owed her. They were even.

You may be right, and actually I sincerely hope that you are. As I said, I want a strong friendship bond between Buffy and Faith. They should share a bond as the last two Slayers Called in the traditional way. But, given the short time that Faith was back in Sunnydale in Season 7, I just can't see Buffy believing that Faith is all that dependable. Maybe if she had returned at the beginning of the Season, maybe injured and in need of care the way that Spike was, she and Buffy might have had time to bond more, though her showing up that soon would have screwed up the Season 4 story line on "Angel."

But for me, Buffy simply knowing that Faith will fight when it becomes necessary isn't the same as real trust.

 

[Lyri]

Buffy knows that Angel trust Faith. That right there is enough for Buffy to know that Faith will do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's why she gives the Scythe to Faith when she thinks she can't go on.

I think Faith wearing the amulet would have been the perfect end to a four year long redemption arc for Faith. I think it would have been beautiful.

 

[janas]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION], It's true what you say, but the fact is, that at that moment, that to which you refer in the first post, Buffy needed exactly that kind of trust. She needed to know that Faith will fight when it becomes necessary.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy knows that Angel trust Faith. That right there is enough for Buffy to know that Faith will do whatever it takes to get the job done. It's why she gives the Scythe to Faith when she thinks she can't go on.

I think Faith wearing the amulet would have been the perfect end to a four year long redemption arc for Faith. I think it would have been beautiful.

Knowing that Faith will fight doesn't require trust, it only requires a knowledge of her personality. he only time that Buffy spent with Faith when they weren't fighting each other was at the beginning of Season 3, when Faith was a dive in blindly, fists swinging, kind of character who never considered the consequences of her actions and rarely followed instructions. Yes, we know that she had changed by Season 7, but Buffy does not, and she can only act on what she knows.

Angel trusts Faith and has little or no doubt that she will remain loyal to him and always have his back when he needs it (kind of like Buffy trusts Spike in Season 7) But Faith's loyalty to Angel doesn't automatically transfer over to Buffy, or at least Faith hasn't had the opportunity to prove to Buffy that it does, and, without that kind of assurance, Buffy isn't going to trust her with something that might prove very important in her fight. Certainly, Buffy knows that Faith will fight. What she DOESN'T know is, will Faith follow her orders in a fight, or will she go off on her own tangent again.

And, by the way, Buffy gave Faith the Scythe mainly because Faith was the nearest one to her at the time. It might just as easily been Rona, Kennedy, or even Spike, for that matter. The important thing was to not let so powerful a weapon become lost or, worse yet, used by the enemy against them.

 

[Robb Stark]

Angel or Faith wearing the amulet still makes for a compelling story. They are too big and important as characters with too much influence for it to not count. Under the terms of who wears the amulet, there are still huge character and verse moments possible if either one of them wears it.

Angel wears it and there is the potential for fantastic scenes between him, Buffy, Faith and maybe Giles too. Not to mention what it would have meant for the 5th season of ATS. I always looked at it as W&H sending him to Sunnydale with the intent that he would stay and fight with Buffy, that he would wear it. Thus, rendering him totally under their control come S5.

With Faith, it would be even more satisfying to see Buffy acknowledge her as a champion and trust her with that role, especially after what had happened in the previous episodes. Faith making that sacrifice would have worked so well. Faith had already made the call to atone for her crimes by staying in jail, not to mention her realisation of what being The Slayer really felt like when they kicked Buffy out. Going out to save everyone would have been a natural progression of her redemptive arc.

Even Buffy wearing the amulet works wonderfully. She sacrifices herself, shares (as she believes) her power and so no longer has to be The Slayer, and she finally, once and for all, closes the Hellmouth.

Either one of the options would have supplied a very satisfying story that can either work as a stand alone end to a character narrative, or as the basis of the next chapter on AtS.

Faith and Angel are amazing characters, agreed, but that doesn't mean that the narrative of the seasons finale should be shifted completely to two characters who have barely appeared since the show's third season. We can (and probably will) debate the quality of Spike's arc and story, but he'd been set up as the show's male lead for two years, and Buffy was very interwoven into that.

You have to remember, the show was not written for the hardest of hardcore fans. It was written for the average viewer. Not every viewer who watched BTVS watched AtS as well. Therefore importing Angel back in to save the day, when many fans had either never seen him or hadn't seen him for years, wouldn't have worked. The same applies to Faith. Quality of the characters has nothing to do with it. Bringing them back in supporting roles was a great touch, and Angel's scene with Buffy in "Chosen" is one of my all time favorites, but impartially, I wouldn't have wanted either to just swoop in from nowhere and save the day in the last episode. "Chosen" is poorly written enough, I still have issues with the show's second lead resolving the central plot (seriously, you could take Buffy almost entirely out of "Chosen" and have virtually the same episode), having guest stars reappear and solve everything was not the way to go.

Now, if they had structured the season differently earlier on, if they had brought Angel or Faith back in far earlier and built them up differently, then I'd think differently. But S7 is, for better or worse, largely built around Spike. That's the direction they chose to go, so having that arc progress for an entire season and then have no satisfying conclusion to it would have been horrible storytelling.

Buffy wearing the amulet I completely disagree with. She'd already died twice. Having her die again, in an epic-save-the-world scenario would have been ridiculously derivative and anti-climactic.

 

[thetopher]

Knowing that Faith will fight doesn't require trust, it only requires a knowledge of her personality. he only time that Buffy spent with Faith when they weren't fighting each other was at the beginning of Season 3, when Faith was a dive in blindly, fists swinging, kind of character who never considered the consequences of her actions and rarely followed instructions. Yes, we know that she had changed by Season 7, but Buffy does not, and she can only act on what she knows.

Angel trusts Faith and has little or no doubt that she will remain loyal to him and always have his back when he needs it (kind of like Buffy trusts Spike in Season 7) But Faith's loyalty to Angel doesn't automatically transfer over to Buffy, or at least Faith hasn't had the opportunity to prove to Buffy that it does, and, without that kind of assurance, Buffy isn't going to trust her with something that might prove very important in her fight. Certainly, Buffy knows that Faith will fight. What she DOESN'T know is, will Faith follow her orders in a fight, or will she go off on her own tangent again.

And, by the way, Buffy gave Faith the Scythe mainly because Faith was the nearest one to her at the time. It might just as easily been Rona, Kennedy, or even Spike, for that matter. The important thing was to not let so powerful a weapon become lost or, worse yet, used by the enemy against them.

First off, I said that Faith could've replaced from a narrative stand-point, as in plot, not as a character, but after listening to the other arguements I've changed my mind.
It could've worked. Buffy didn't like Faith, but I think she trusted her because Angel did.

And please, the whole point of the Buffy/Faith conversation in Buffy's room was meant to show an understanding, they are Slayers, a bond that goes deeper than whatever Buffy/Spike had. Faith understands Buffy in a way Spike only wishes he could.

And saying that the only reason Buffy gave Faith the scythe in the end fight is because she was closer is nonsense. Faith ran over to Buffy to help her, Buffy passes her the scythe. It's a 'passing of the torch' moment, as in 'I trust you to hold the line, take my place'. It's a clear symbolic moment.

Also, comparing the connection between Angel and Faith to Buffy and Spike is also bull, Angel has supported Faith for years, made her face her own darkness, never gave up on her even when everybody else had, including herself. In turn Faith would've given her life for Angel several times over (and almost did) trying to take down Angelus and capture him to bring Angel back.

I don't think anybody here would argue that their relationship is an extremely close one.

However, a lot of people argue about the closeness of the Spike/Buffy relationship in S7, that's what this thread is about, more or less.
You could see it as genuine closeness, manipulation, or a crutch for writers who clearly have an end in sight and wish to force it.
Bottom line, Buffy has known Spike, this Spike, for less than a year. Her complete trust in him comes fairly late on in the day. ('Touched')

 

[Black Eye Guy]

And, by the way, Buffy gave Faith the Scythe mainly because Faith was the nearest one to her at the time. It might just as easily been Rona, Kennedy, or even Spike, for that matter. The important thing was to not let so powerful a weapon become lost or, worse yet, used by the enemy against them.

I meant when she first got the scythe, to feel it's power. Buffy fewlt that power within it, if she didn't trust Faith why would she let her see it and talk to her about it.
No one would have gotten the Scythe but a slayer, the entire point of it was it was a slayer weapon.


People seem to be making out it had to be Spike for a big narrative moment, seeing how Faith had been there since season 3 and we'd followed her across both shows and on an actual redemption arc, it absolutely would have worked.
Plus not everyone is a Spike fan, so it wouldn't have been as splitting, half the people out there didn't care that he died, Faith would have had a more unifying feeling among fans. Plus if you watched at the time, the narrative was already ruined, everyone knew Spike was gonna be on Angel making the death irrelevant as a big twist.

 

[Silverspike]

People seem to be making out it had to be Spike for a big narrative moment, seeing how Faith had been there since season 3 and we'd followed her across both shows and on an actual redemption arc, it absolutely would have worked.

Yes but not as consistently as Spike had been.

Faith would have had a more unifying feeling among fans

Really?

At least the feedback had been so strong for Spikes character at the time that he was the one the WB wanted/demanded Joss let them have for AtS.

Bottom line, Buffy has known Spike, this Spike, for less than a year. Her complete trust in him comes fairly late on in the day. ('Touched')

I'd disagree. Complete trust when he gained his soul yes, but there were instances of her trusting him before then.

 

[Robb Stark]

People seem to be making out it had to be Spike for a big narrative moment, seeing how Faith had been there since season 3 and we'd followed her across both shows and on an actual redemption arc, it absolutely would have worked.
Plus not everyone is a Spike fan, so it wouldn't have been as splitting, half the people out there didn't care that he died, Faith would have had a more unifying feeling among fans. Plus if you watched at the time, the narrative was already ruined, everyone knew Spike was gonna be on Angel making the death irrelevant as a big twist.

Lol dude there is no way Faith could have worked in that same role with the way the season was built. No way. Faith had not "been there since season 3". Since S3 she had been in exactly two episodes. She didn't even return in S7 until episode 18. She was not in anyway a main character by the time of her return. She'd been in two episodes of another show's first season, and one other four-episode arc, on another show.

No, not everyone is a Spike fan, but he is consistently voted as the most popular character in the Buffyverse after Buffy. He's not my favorite, and I know you hate him, but that's just what the results show, again and again. And equating advertising errors at the time with a good story is not sound arguing. A network miscalculation isn't something that can be pragmatically taken into account when writing the story.

You also didn't touch on the arguments made of having a de facto guest star swoop in and save the day, and how that isn't a very well-told story. Regardless of you're feelings about Spike, the season was largely built around him, and to have him finish without a conclusion would have been ridiculous.

 

[white avenger]

Also, comparing the connection between Angel and Faith to Buffy and Spike is also bull, Angel has supported Faith for years, made her face her own darkness, never gave up on her even when everybody else had, including herself. In turn Faith would've given her life for Angel several times over (and almost did) trying to take down Angelus and capture him to bring Angel back.

I don't think anybody here would argue that their relationship is an extremely close one.

However, a lot of people argue about the closeness of the Spike/Buffy relationship in S7, that's what this thread is about, more or less.
You could see it as genuine closeness, manipulation, or a crutch for writers who clearly have an end in sight and wish to force it.
Bottom line, Buffy has known Spike, this Spike, for less than a year. Her complete trust in him comes fairly late on in the day. ('Touched')

I think that the parallel between Angel's trust in Faith, and Buffy's in Spike is very valid. Buffy was the first, in fact the only, one in Season 7 who saw Spike as anything more than a killer and attempted rapist. She defended him even though her closest friends didn't, she saw him as "the only one watching her back," whether that is true or not, and I think that she had little doubt of his loyalty to her, even to the point of death. In turn, Spike had absolute faith in Buffy, even to the point of berating her friends for betraying her. And I would argue that Buffy's trust in Spike goes back further that "Touched," almost to the beginning of the season. She saw the better man that he could be, and was, when no one else did. She trusted him even to the point of allowing him to stay in her house after she knew that he was killing again. She trusted him enough to have his chip removed when having it repaired was also an option.

Substitute Angel and Faith in the same situations and I have no doubt that the results would have been the same, even to the point of Angel defending Faith when none of his other friends would.

Either Buffy or Angel could have been wrong in their trust and loyalty. Either Spike or Faith could have gone evil again, betraying that trust and loyalty. Fortunately, both Buffy and Angel were right.

On the other hand, Buffy didn't trust Faith just because Angel did, and Angel didn't trust Spike as much as Buffy did, at least until he got a chance to know the "new" Spike for himself in Season 5 of his own show. Buffy and Faith haven't, as yet, had that period of re-acquaintance, so the trust still isn't there. Hopefully, it will be someday.

 

[Kean]

but he'd been set up as the show's male lead for two years, and Buffy was very interwoven into that.

I'm not being funny here but I honestly never, not once, considered him the male lead. In my head Giles was the male lead, with Xander stepping into the role in the last 2 seasons. Maybe that is why I find the resolution of S7 so unsatisfying. Who and what I perceive the important characters and arcs get sidelined.

You have to remember, the show was not written for the hardest of hardcore fans. It was written for the average viewer.

Have to disagree with you here. The hardcore fan is exactly who Buffy (and Angel) were written for. Joss has said it himself, "I'd rather make a show a 100 people need to see, than a 1000 people want to see." Not to mention that the show is a minefield of foreshadowing, with so many of the arcs or character moments involving payoff years later. The show was written for a close reading and serious investment, not casual viewing.

Not every viewer who watched BTVS watched AtS as well. Therefore importing Angel back in to save the day, when many fans had either never seen him or hadn't seen him for years, wouldn't have worked.

I didn't actually want Angel to come in a save the day, I was really happy that wasn't what happened. But, I do think he had enough story and importance that if the writers did choose to go that way, it would have made sense. That's the entire point I'm arguing. No matter who wore the amulet out of the people mentioned and eligible, it would have made sense. It didn't have to go the way it did.

For me, Buffy and Faith reaching a resolution was a much more important conclusion to a more important story.

Ultimately, this is down to investment, and the Spike arc in back end of the series got in the way of stories and characters I wanted to see. So, the way S7 ended, in terms of him, meant nothing to me. I wanted to know how the Scoobies really were, I wanted to know what Faith and Buffy intended to do, I wanted issues from 4 seasons ago that were left hanging to be addressed.

Now, if they had structured the season differently earlier on.

Now this I can agree. Restructuring the season to make it reflect and focus on the key relationship i.e. The Scoobies, that would have been great.

Buffy wearing the amulet I completely disagree with. She'd already died twice. Having her die again, in an epic-save-the-world scenario would have been ridiculously derivative and anti-climactic.

Well, I'm of the opinion that further Buffy's story carries on the more they ruin what came before. So, I have no issue with Buffy going out doing exactly what she was supposed to do. I mean, how else is she going to die? Getting hit by a bus? When she goes, she is going to go down in a blaze of glory saving the world. To me it doesn't matter if it happened in S7, or ten years from now. It's the same ending to the same story. Truth be told, if I had my way, The Gift would have been the series ending.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

Truth be told, if I had my way, The Gift would have been the series ending.

I've come to the same conclusion recently. I'd miss a few things from seasons six and seven but ending after season 5 would have been more satisfying. I'm glad for all the awesome actors and writers that they all got to keep their jobs for a couple more years but beyond that I've fallen so out of love with the last two seasons that they might as well not exist.

 

[Kean]

I've come to the same conclusion recently. I'd miss a few things from seasons six and seven but ending after season 5 would have been more satisfying. I'm glad for all the awesome actors and writers that they all got to keep their jobs for a couple more years but beyond that I've fallen so out of love with the last two seasons that they might as well not exist.

Completely. For me, it is the only ending that leaves the best legacy for the show and the characters. 99% of my dissatisfaction with the verse and its characters comes from what they become in season 6 & 7. There are a few moments I loved, but nothing worth losing that love for the show.