"Because I'm Not Ready..."

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12655]Still a Scoobie[/MENTION] [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

"The Gift" is written like a proper ending, it offers actual resolutions. Buffy dies like a real slayer. Willow and Tara menage to pull it through. Xander and Anya are about to get married. Without a slayer Giles goes back to Old Blighty, he wanted to do just that since season 4 after all. Spike goes back to the cycle of obsession -> heartbreak -> depression -> obsession and so on. Dawn lives, Glory and Ben die.

Roll the credits, there's nothing left to be said. Most importantly, the arcs of the core four characters are resolved. In "Chosen" the only characters that get a resolution are...(ex) love interests?! Spike and Anya, basically. 'Scuse me, whose show is this? Whose story?

Man...

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=12655]Still a Scoobie[/MENTION] [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

"The Gift" is written like a proper ending, it offers actual resolutions. Buffy dies like a real slayer. Willow and Tara menage to pull it through. Xander and Anya are about to get married. Without a slayer Giles goes back to Old Blighty, he wanted to do just that since season 4 after all. Spike goes back to the cycle of obsession -> heartbreak -> depression -> obsession and so on. Dawn lives, Glory and Ben die.

Roll the credits, there's nothing left to be said. Most importantly, the arcs of the core four characters are resolved. In "Chosen" the only characters that get a resolution are...(ex) love interests?! Spike and Anya, basically. 'Scuse me, whose show is this? Whose story?

Man...

Totally agree. It also makes Buffy an overall better show, going out with its heart and message intact.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Lol dude there is no way Faith could have worked in that same role with the way the season was built. No way. Faith had not "been there since season 3". Since S3 she had been in exactly two episodes. She didn't even return in S7 until episode 18. She was not in anyway a main character by the time of her return.

It didn't matter she wasn't there the whole time, she was a character with enough history for it to mean something.

No, not everyone is a Spike fan, but he is consistently voted as the most popular character in the Buffyverse after Buffy.

No he often places high in opinion ranking by one person, if you look at fan voted polls I think Willow often ranks higher, but there isn't a consistent top 3.

And equating advertising errors at the time with a good story is not sound arguing. A network miscalculation isn't something that can be pragmatically taken into account when writing the story.

I didn't mean cuz it leaked but because the writers knew they were going to bring him back, they have him a redemptive moment cuz they knew there was no risk and he's be back in September.

and to have him finish without a conclusion would have been ridiculous.

But that's my point it wasn't a conclusion, they knew he's be back and they'd have I explain why he wasn't going after Buffy, and they knew they'd eventually see each other again. There is no conclusion, especially since in Angel, he continues much along the same way, very little (but at least some in Angel) character growth and no consequences or resolution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Silverspike]

Roll the credits, there's nothing left to be said. Most importantly, the arcs of the core four characters are resolved. In "Chosen" the only characters that get a resolution are...(ex) love interests?! Spike and Anya, basically. 'Scuse me, whose show is this? Whose story?

Thing is in many peoples eyes the 'core four' had expanded and such characters as Tara, Spike and Anya had risen up through the ranks to become fan favorites. Spike and Anya for example and had been in the show for years and the stories reflected this. Buffy as a show was never set in amber, thank god, or it would have stagnated very quickly imo.

As to The WB announcing before hand that they had Spike for Angel and thus ruining the ending of Buffy, well If you remember Whedon didn't do that on purpose. It was just WB being overly impatient to announce their new addition.

 

[thetopher]

No, not everyone is a Spike fan, but he is consistently voted as the most popular character in the Buffyverse after Buffy. He's not my favorite, and I know you hate him, but that's just what the results show, again and again. And equating advertising errors at the time with a good story is not sound arguing. A network miscalculation isn't something that can be pragmatically taken into account when writing the story.

So Spike is voted ahead of characters like Angel (who has his own show), Giles, Willow, Xander (the other core four), Wesley or Faith?

I seriously doubt it, not consistantly he isn't. Spike is a very divisive character, there is plenty of fan support for him but also plenty of people who dislike him. He's one of the key reasons a lot of people dislike S6/S7.

My intial reasoning for this line of arguement is that if Spike had left when he 'wanted' to Faith could've replaced him, it could've been her redemption arc. Sure the writing was structered around Spike's arc, but from a story perspective there's not a single reason why it couldn't of happened the other and been resolved just the same, hell even better than it was. The same with Angel being involved.

I mean, aren't Faith and Angel are more important characters in Buffy's story anyway?. Angel was her first true love and Faith is 'the other slayer', Buffy's former nemesis. Both these characters are more key to Buffy's story than Spike and either of them could've been part of the end story arc, with very little rewriting.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=8314]Silverspike[/MENTION]
No.

BtVS is about Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles. Every other character on the show is either their family member, a (ex)lover or an (ex) enemy. Anya and Spike are love interests who are not even present in every season, they are cool but it's not their show. You know what, just check the screen time and line count of every major character, it will become clear to you who is and who is not a core character.

Buffy as a show was never set in amber, thank god, or it would have stagnated very quickly imo.

Buffy as a show stagnated in season 2, every storyline is pretty much already done by the time this season ends, hell, they already rehashed plots in season 2.

 

[Silverspike]

Well why on earth were you still watching it If thats the case.

As to the rest, nah. 🙂

My intial reasoning for this line of arguement is that if Spike had left when he 'wanted' to Faith could've replaced him, it could've been her redemption arc.

As others have said it would have jarred horribly as we'd seen very little of her uptil then. Also one of that seasons main themes was about bonding Spike with Buffy and as well as Spike dying a heroes death.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I find it impossible to believe he's an actual top character across all the fans since he has the least selling comic books and didn't have a spin off even though he was willing to do it? Where as Sarah and David said they have no interest

As to the rest, nah. 🙂

No he's correct, it's the core four, it's still called the core four. It's still referenced in season 9. That number doesn't, everyone else is a supporting character.

As others have said it would have jarred horribly as we'd seen very little of her uptil then. Also one of that seasons main themes was about bonding Spike with Buffy and as well as Spike dying a heroes death.

But thetophers point was that story could have been replaced, it wasn't essential to the actual story, everything with the first could have gone down exactly the same with a different story for Faith.




Spike was also never the male lead, Buffy only had a male with Angel, the promotional material for the show is proof of that.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kean]

Spike was also never the male lead, Buffy only had a male with Angel, the promotional material for the show is proof of that.

I agree with everything you said except this part. I don't think BTVS ever had a traditional male lead. The closest we had was Giles, and Xander later on, but even then it was still a world with Buffy at its centre and all stories tied to her. Angel was Buffy's partner, but I never felt he was a lead on BTVS. I think you have to be a Core Four for that. However, once he gets his own show he shares lead duties with Buffy in terms of their place in the verse. They become to two characters on which the stories spin from.

 

[Silverspike]

Yes I agree imo there were no 'real' male leads in Buffy and imo thats how it should be.

No he's correct, it's the core four, it's still called the core four. It's still referenced in season 9.

Nah as I said canon or not I don't take a blind bit of notice of that joke they laughingly call season 9. 'Season' huh thats a laugh for a start. :lol

 

[Robb Stark]

It didn't matter she wasn't there the whole time, she was a character with enough history for it to mean something.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I just disagree.

But that's my point it wasn't a conclusion, they knew he's be back and they'd have I explain why he wasn't going after Buffy, and they knew they'd eventually see each other again. There is no conclusion, especially since in Angel, he continues much along the same way, very little (but at least some in Angel) character growth and no consequences or resolution.

Spike's story still needed closure within the context of the show. Like I said, not everyone watched AtS. And I don't know how you're interpreting the writing decisions the way you are. Within the show, they never see each other again, and the comics were hardly a creative force at the time. And the notion of no consequences or resolution is just flatly in the face of what I felt the show was trying to convey. How can you say that after watching "Damage"?

And really, Joss has killed off and brought back half the cast. Are their arcs at the time ruined? When Buffy is killed in "The Gift" or when Angel is killed in S2? Buffy sacrifices herself in S1 to The Master, and is brought back after a commercial break. Does that cheapen her as a character?

So Spike is voted ahead of characters like Angel (who has his own show), Giles, Willow, Xander (the other core four), Wesley or Faith?

I seriously doubt it, not consistantly he isn't. Spike is a very divisive character, there is plenty of fan support for him but also plenty of people who dislike him. He's one of the key reasons a lot of people dislike S6/S7.

From what I have seen, yes he is. Casual fans of the show, for the most part, love Spike. That is an observation I have made from seeing numerous polls online (which granted, have their flaws) and just discussion about the show. He's divisive online, but to fans I've spoken to who watched the series and then that was it, he's a massively popular character.

My intial reasoning for this line of arguement is that if Spike had left when he 'wanted' to Faith could've replaced him, it could've been her redemption arc. Sure the writing was structered around Spike's arc, but from a story perspective there's not a single reason why it couldn't of happened the other and been resolved just the same, hell even better than it was. The same with Angel being involved.

I completely agree with this.

I mean, aren't Faith and Angel are more important characters in Buffy's story anyway?. Angel was her first true love and Faith is 'the other slayer', Buffy's former nemesis. Both these characters are more key to Buffy's story than Spike and either of them could've been part of the end story arc, with very little rewriting.

By the end of S7, no, at the time I don't think they were more important. On the whole, yes I do, but at the that time in the series the show had made a commitment to push Spike hard. I don't see how you can objectively say that Faith is more key to Buffy's arc than Spike by S7. Earlier, yes, but by that point, as I've said time and again, she had not appeared in the show for years. That does matter.

Bring Faith back in the S7 opener and go that way? Then I'd see things differently.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

While Angel is my favorite character and I root for Bangel more than any other ship', it had to be Spike.

You're right, it had to be Spike. Why? For the reasons you stated above, but ultimately because only in death could be be redeemed and absolved from his sins.

Spike had hurt Buffy, left to fight for his soul, and came back to prove his worth to her. Yet it couldn't stop there. Only in death is there true redemption. Spike had to die to prove he was truly redeemed.

I can't help but wonder how it would have changed the story if it had been Faith who wore the amulet. We wouldn't have had the "I love you" "No you don't, but thanks for saying it" (which honestly, somethings I think we'd be better off without) but I wouldn't trade anything for that last beautiful image of Buffy intertwining her fingers with Spike, and the two of them exploding in fire. That's this couple's image, of fire, of passion that burns and consumes, that remains the primary motif for these two.

What do you think Buffy would have said to Faith if she had worn the amulet? What would Buffy's last words to Faith have been?

 

[janas]

What do you think Buffy would have said to Faith if she had worn the amulet? What would Buffy's last words to Faith have been?

Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree with everything you said except this part. I don't think BTVS ever had a traditional male lead. The closest we had was Giles, and Xander later on, but even then it was still a world with Buffy at its centre and all stories tied to her. Angel was Buffy's partner, but I never felt he was a lead on BTVS. I think you have to be a Core Four for that. However, once he gets his own show he shares lead duties with Buffy in terms of their place in the verse. They become to two characters on which the stories spin from.

Yeah true, I guess I agree.
I totally agree that there isn't a clear male lead, which is a point of the show. You're right in that Giles was more the closest male lead in season 1 and 2, but I think in season 3, Angel starts to take over.

Spike's story still needed closure within the context of the show. Like I said, not everyone watched AtS. And I don't know how you're interpreting the writing decisions the way you are. Within the show, they never see each other again, and the comics were hardly a creative force at the time.

But the show is bigger than just BtVS, if people just watched BtVS and not Angel there are loads of instances of them only getting half the story, this is just another example of that.
The ring of Amara had no conclusion, Faith randomly showing up, pretty much completely forgiven, isn't explained. If things had to happen with the 7 series of just BtVS fans never got the full story.

And the notion of no consequences or resolution is just flatly in the face of what I felt the show was trying to convey. How can you say that after watching "Damage"?

I've always said Spikes character development on Angel was 150% better than on BtVS, but if your saying the show needed to kill Spike off to give closure to his story and the fact he comes back on Angel doesn't matter, then there is no conclusion on BtVS.

And really, Joss has killed off and brought back half the cast. Are their arcs at the time ruined? When Buffy is killed in "The Gift" or when Angel is killed in S2? Buffy sacrifices herself in S1 to The Master, and is brought back after a commercial break. Does that cheapen her as a character?

But death wasn't given to those characters as a get out of jail free card to absolve past crimes. In this case, and people have said it in this thread, Spike got to die, apparently that means complete forgiveness, when they never intended to keep him dead?

From what I have seen, yes he is. Casual fans of the show, for the most part, love Spike. That is an observation I have made from seeing numerous polls online (which granted, have their flaws) and just discussion about the show. He's divisive online, but to fans I've spoken to who watched the series and then that was it, he's a massively popular character.

Funnily, and I'm not even kidding, I've seen the exact opposite. Casual fans didn't care for Spike, and it's only the hardcore fans that did.

Nah as I said canon or not I don't take a blind bit of notice of that joke they laughingly call season 9. 'Season' huh thats a laugh for a start. :lol

Thats nice.

 

[Silverspike]

But death wasn't given to those characters as a get out of jail free card to absolve past crimes. In this case, and people have said it in this thread, Spike got to die, apparently that means complete forgiveness, when they never intended to keep him dead?

Well as the hardcore fans know Whedon wanted to keep Spike dead, and it was WB that pushed for him to come over onto AtS. Even when Whedon relented he intended for him to only appear in flashbacks. It was JM/WB who pushed for him to become part of the main cast.

But the show is bigger than just BtVS, if people just watched BtVS and not Angel there are loads of instances of them only getting half the story, this is just another example of that.

I hang a lot on Tumblr and many, many new fans just don't seem to be interested in watching Angel at all. A shame I know, but thats how It appears to be. Many casual fans love Buffy, but just not AtS for some reason.

Funnily, and I'm not even kidding, I've seen the exact opposite. Casual fans didn't care for Spike, and it's only the hardcore fans that did.

Well I can only go by what I see on Tumblr but the most popular character seems to be Buffy, followed by Willow and Tara, and then Spike. So out of the male characters he's very popular indeed.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Well as the hardcore fans know Whedon wanted to keep Spike dead, and it was WB that pushed for him to come over onto AtS. Even when Whedon relented he intended for him to only appear in flashbacks. It was JM/WB who pushed for him to become part of the main cast.

Do you have a source for that? I'm a hardcore fan and I dont believe that.

Firstly there was talks of spin offs after Buffy ended, and Spike was one of the names tossed around.
Secondly the WB never demanded Spike move from Buffy to Angel, they agreed to bring Angel back if they brought over a character from Buffy, Willow and Spike were the two considered, and Alyson had publicly said she had no interest.
And there is no way Spike would have appeared in flashbacks, what would be the point?

Well I can only go by what I see on Tumblr but the most popular character seems to be Buffy, followed by Willow and Tara, and then Spike. So out of the male characters he's very popular indeed.

But thats irrelevant, if someone is taking the time to Tumblr about Buffy, they are included in "hardcore fan" in some capacity. You wont know the casual fans opinion cuz they are CASUAL.
If you want to see what the general fanbase thinks of something look at the actual facts and figures, not your tumblr feed were you, as a spike fan, choose who to follow.
Fact is, between Buffy, Angel, Willow and Spike comics, Spike is the least selling comic. That is the proper indicator of a characters popularity.

 

[Silverspike]

o you have a source for that? I'm a hardcore fan and I dont believe that.

I was very involved in fandom back then and part of the whole spoiler network. We heard blow by blow what was going on.

And there is no way Spike would have appeared in flashbacks, what would be the point?

He would have been in flashbacks that covered Angels past. God only knows what that would have involved.

Fact is, between Buffy, Angel, Willow and Spike comics, Spike is the least selling comic.

Well It might have helped If they had been well written and actually had a story and felt true to his character, then maybe more people would have liked them.

I adore Spike and I thought they were crap.

But thats irrelevant, if someone is taking the time to Tumblr about Buffy, they are included in "hardcore fan" in some capacity.

Most are posting reactions to viewing the series on Netflix and yes, are very much casual fans compared to the folks you'd find arguing the toss on forums. 😀

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I was very involved in fandom back then and part of the whole spoiler network. We heard blow by blow what was going on.

Great, so was I, but any point I make I can find an article with a quote from someone who said exactly that.
Taking your word for it isn't a source. I meant an actual source where Whedon says he intended to keep Spike dead, and then decided to bring him back in flashbacks?

Well It might have helped If they had been well written and actually had a story and felt true to his character, then maybe more people would have liked them.

I adore Spike and I thought they were crap.

But you read the Spike comics?
That puts you in the group I'm talking about, his fans did turn out to read the comics, but it still sold less than Willow, Angel and Buffy.

Most are posting reactions to viewing the series on Netflix and yes, are very much casual fans compared to the folks you'd find arguing the toss on forums. 😀

I agree they are more casual than some of us, but that still doesn't make them a casual fan. Someone who watched the show but doesn't go online to talk/tumblr/tweet about it is more casual.

 

[Robb Stark]

What do you think Buffy would have said to Faith if she had worn the amulet? What would Buffy's last words to Faith have been?

"Kiss me"

😀

(Why hasn't this happened yet?)

 

[Silverspike]

Taking your word for it isn't a source. I meant an actual source where Whedon says he intended to keep Spike dead, and then decided to bring him back in flashbacks?

Dear god love how long ago was it?? I haven't got time for that. Also that was the point of spoiler boards. They were secret place that had links within organizations etc. I know the JM fandom did. 🙂

But you read the Spike comics?
That puts you in the group I'm talking about, his fans did turn out to read the comics, but it still sold less than Willow, Angel and Buffy.

I was in the minority. My friends all gave up on them pretty damn quickly.

And have you been on Tumblr? They post about every damn thing from their Cats to what they've eaten for dinner, so brief posts about watching Buffy is nothing special to this crowd.