Becoming: Really Buffy?

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

(sorry for bumping this thread)

Maybe it needed Angel`s blood INSIDE of the statue. Not just smered on the outside. If this is the case, I don`t see her having any other options.

That could be the case; Or it could be what Icarium quoted. Some things in the Buffyverse CAN be taken at face value. LOL.

Off-topic:

It`s kinda the same as in The Gift, isn`t it. Why did Buffy feel like she had to actually jump in to the light? It only needed a few drops of Dawns blood to open. Wouldn`t it have been enough for Buffy to just cut herself and share a few drops of her blood to end that light thingy? Or did I miss something...?

But anyways, both SUPER EPIC scenes in tv history! 😉

As for the portal in The Gift, SOMEONE had to die to stop it. Either Dawn or Buffy, someone had to die.

"Blood starts it, and until the blood stops flowing, it'll never stop." - Dawn

So it certainly wouldn't have been enough for her just to let a few drops of her blood drip into the portal; When The Key was turned human, the energy became blood, Dawn's blood, Summers blood. In order to close the portal, The Key had to be destroyed within it.

 

[white avenger]

She pulls a sword from her bag.
KENDRA: Blessed by the knight who first slew the demon. If all else fails, this might stop it. ...I think.

And there you have it straight from the Slayer's mouth. The sword that Kendra brought was, she believed, BLESSED BY the knight who first slew the demon. Therefore it WASN'T the actual sword that did the slaying, since that sword was left in his stony ol' heart to insure his dormant state. So that brings us back to my theory about sending Angel to hell with a usable, even blessed, weapon, or, as an alternative, the writers either ignored canon and went for dramatic effect, hoping that the fans' eyes would be so blurred by tears that they would miss it, or they just plain screwed up.

What still bugs me about this episode is that, every time that Buffy mentions it from then through Season 7, she refers to what she did as "killing" Angel. Not only would a sword through the chest NOT kill Angel, she saw him perfectly well for several seconds after she did it, and he never showed any sign whatsoever of crumbling to dust. She sent him to hell, undead and fully conscious of the entire process. All that I can conclude from that is that she wanted so badly to believe that he was not suffering in some hell dimension was to go into total denial of the actual facts. It was easier for Buffy to believe that Angel was dead, then resurrected, than for her to believe that he had had to somehow survive a century in hell before being brought back, with full memory of the ordeal unimpaired. Either that, or the writers, in an effort to cover up their original screw up, just had to keep reinforcing the "Buffy Killed Angel" myth in the hopes that the fans would remain so overwhelmed by the whole thing that they would never question it.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

What still bugs me about this episode is that, every time that Buffy mentions it from then through Season 7, she refers to what she did as "killing" Angel. Not only would a sword through the chest NOT kill Angel, she saw him perfectly well for several seconds after she did it, and he never showed any sign whatsoever of crumbling to dust. She sent him to hell, undead and fully conscious of the entire process. All that I can conclude from that is that she wanted so badly to believe that he was not suffering in some hell dimension was to go into total denial of the actual facts. It was easier for Buffy to believe that Angel was dead, then resurrected, than for her to believe that he had had to somehow survive a century in hell before being brought back, with full memory of the ordeal unimpaired. Either that, or the writers, in an effort to cover up their original screw up, just had to keep reinforcing the "Buffy Killed Angel" myth in the hopes that the fans would remain so overwhelmed by the whole thing that they would never question it.

I think you are just nitpicking now, dude. Buffy MAY AS WELL HAVE killed Angel. She didn't have to say "I sent Angel to hell!" We got the point. "I killed Angel" was just as effective. You're making an issue where there isn't one.

 

[white avenger]

I think you are just nitpicking now, dude.

I also count the number of times that someone fires a gun before reloading, notice the sound effects for what is obviously a car with a stick shift running through the gears on acceleration when the actual car in question is shown as having an automatic transmission, and can tell when a martial art technique described as "karate" is, in fact, tae kwon do. I noticed when Brandon Lee's split lip shifted from the left side to the right side and back again in "Rapid Fire," When John Wayne's hat changed from tan to gray in "War Wagon." and the fact that Clint Eastwood used a rifle in "The Outlaw Josey Wales" that wasn't in production until at least 10 years AFTER the end of the Civil War. Indiana Jones' handgun was a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock .44 Special in "Raiders Of The Lost Arc," a Colt Police Positive .38 special in "Temple Of Doom," and a Webley Third Model .455 in "Last Crusade" and "Crystal Skull."
Dirty Harry's "world's most powerful handgun in the original movie was, in fact, not a Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum, but a Model 57 .41 Magnum, because the 6 inch barrel 29 wasn't available at the time of filming. The 1965 Mustang that Jill Masterson's sister drove in "Goldfinger" was a pre-production model loaned to the producers of the movie in order to introduce the public to the new model. Should I go on?

Finding indiscrepancies, flubs, and foul ups in movies and TV shows is a hobby with me, and I've been doing it for a long time. Some folks call it being observant, and some people just tell me that I need to get a life. Whatever it is, I simply can't help it, so I've learned to live with and enjoy it.

 

[Willow My Love]

Pretty sure the sword through the heart thing had to do with how the demon itself died.

 

[Fenrik]

As for the portal in The Gift, SOMEONE had to die to stop it. Either Dawn or Buffy, someone had to die.

"Blood starts it, and until the blood stops flowing, it'll never stop." - Dawn

So it certainly wouldn't have been enough for her just to let a few drops of her blood drip into the portal; When The Key was turned human, the energy became blood, Dawn's blood, Summers blood. In order to close the portal, The Key had to be destroyed within it.

Ah, offcourse!! How could I forget that! lol! 😱

What still bugs me about this episode is that, every time that Buffy mentions it from then through Season 7, she refers to what she did as "killing" Angel. Not only would a sword through the chest NOT kill Angel, she saw him perfectly well for several seconds after she did it, and he never showed any sign whatsoever of crumbling to dust. She sent him to hell, undead and fully conscious of the entire process. All that I can conclude from that is that she wanted so badly to believe that he was not suffering in some hell dimension was to go into total denial of the actual facts. It was easier for Buffy to believe that Angel was dead, then resurrected, than for her to believe that he had had to somehow survive a century in hell before being brought back, with full memory of the ordeal unimpaired. Either that, or the writers, in an effort to cover up their original screw up, just had to keep reinforcing the "Buffy Killed Angel" myth in the hopes that the fans would remain so overwhelmed by the whole thing that they would never question it.

I think when Buffy said that (at least in "The Gift" and "Selfless") she said it to demonstrate the strenght and the feelings she had WHEN she pulled a sword through his heart. Because WHEN she did that she actually DID believe she killed him. She thought he was dead. She needed to let them know what she was able to do despite of what she actually wanted. That she was able to kill someone she loved more than anything because she knew it was the right thing to do.

"I sacrificed Angel to save to the world. I loved him so much. But I knew what was right."

"I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with...I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

Did this make any sense at all? lol!

 

[Willow My Love]

I think also, she wanted to demonstrate that she had given the Anya thing more than "just a few seconds" thought. Like since she had done that to Angel, it had truly crossed her mind what she may have to do to Anya, and how much she knew it would hurt.

That being said, I really think she underestimated Anya in that fight. She didn't even research how to kill a vengance demon, or how to stop her. Giles knew how to stop Anya. He did it once before.

 

[Nikita]

No, Kendra gave Buffy the sword.

WILLOW: I don't wanna be our only hope! Uh, I crumble under pressure! Let's have another hope.
KENDRA: We have.
She pulls a sword from her bag.
KENDRA: Blessed by the knight who first slew the demon. If all else fails, this might stop it. ...I think.

Anyway, yeah. I think she had to run Angel through with the sword into Acathla to keep him dormant.

*I tink. Sorry, it had to be done.

But I think it makes sense for her to use a sword, for all reasons listed.

 

[buffyprops]

Giles knew how to stop Anya. He did it once before.

Not from Giles perspective...remember, that was in an alternate "Wish" reality.

As was stated in the episodes "Becoming 1&2", Angels blood would allow him to draw the sword from Acathla's Chest and open the vortex, it just makes sense that a combination of the two would be required to close it again.
No one seems to take notice of the fact that after Angel disappears through the vortex the sword is left embedded in Acathla's Chest once again, albeit...in a different place.
Now really, would it been as time effective or dramatic if Buffy had pushed Angel into the vortex and then shoved the sword into Acathla's Chest? I don't think so.

 

[PDH5204]

D'Hoffryn in Selfless: Isn't that just like a slayer. Solving all her problems by sticking things with sharp objects.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Though I would add, re "blood", that Buffy wasn't bleeding in The Gift, so she could have simply pushed Angel into the vortex, assuming things worked the same.

Lastly, for the soul who commented on that one other thread re the questionable moral choices made by Angel at the tail end of season 5, kindly compare those with Buffy killing Angel here. Note that Angel does not expect to survive his effort. We can't say that about Buffy here. Note also season 7 of BTVS. None of the Potentials could possibly exercise what we would call an "informed consent", nor were they asked to. Here, hearken back to the convo between Lorne and Wes in Orpheus:

Lorne: And speaking of sense, have you gone on permanent sabbatical from yours? Tell me you did not shoot that girl full of junk, and then feed her to Angelus.
Wes: It was her choice. Faith knew the risks.
Lorne: Aw, she couldn't! Wesley, I know what that drug does to people. Especially when they super-size the dose to make sure they really get the job done. And you damn well know it too.

Now for the conversation that Buffy never had with the Potentials:

Angel: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.
Gunn: We know the drill.
Angel: No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give.

Lastly, there was no diff between Buffy in Becoming and Buffy at end of season 7. In both instances, she took away the power of choice. Didn't give Angel the chance to choose and didn't give the Potentials the chance to choose either. For another comparison, the vamps who sire others don't have a soul and so aren't inclined at all towards "good", whereas Buffy is supposed to be, so what is worse, the vamp without free will who sires another or the Buffy who makes others' choices for them?

 

[Fenrik]

Now for the conversation that Buffy never had with the Potentials:

Angel: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.
Gunn: We know the drill.
Angel: No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give.

I love this scene!
Gives me the chills everytime I watch it. Specially when the Doyle Theme from "Hero" starts playing as they raise their hands. So powerful! Do you think they used that theme music because they all were hero enough to sacrifice themselves like Doyle did?

 

[kndizzle]

I also count the number of times that someone fires a gun before reloading, notice the sound effects for what is obviously a car with a stick shift running through the gears on acceleration when the actual car in question is shown as having an automatic transmission, and can tell when a martial art technique described as "karate" is, in fact, tae kwon do. I noticed when Brandon Lee's split lip shifted from the left side to the right side and back again in "Rapid Fire," When John Wayne's hat changed from tan to gray in "War Wagon." and the fact that Clint Eastwood used a rifle in "The Outlaw Josey Wales" that wasn't in production until at least 10 years AFTER the end of the Civil War. Indiana Jones' handgun was a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock .44 Special in "Raiders Of The Lost Arc," a Colt Police Positive .38 special in "Temple Of Doom," and a Webley Third Model .455 in "Last Crusade" and "Crystal Skull."
Dirty Harry's "world's most powerful handgun in the original movie was, in fact, not a Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum, but a Model 57 .41 Magnum, because the 6 inch barrel 29 wasn't available at the time of filming. The 1965 Mustang that Jill Masterson's sister drove in "Goldfinger" was a pre-production model loaned to the producers of the movie in order to introduce the public to the new model. Should I go on?

Finding indiscrepancies, flubs, and foul ups in movies and TV shows is a hobby with me, and I've been doing it for a long time. Some folks call it being observant, and some people just tell me that I need to get a life. Whatever it is, I simply can't help it, so I've learned to live with and enjoy it.

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

The diehard Bangel in me would love to believe that subconsciously Buffy was doing something to aide him while in Hell. But the look of devastation on her face tells me she did all she believed possible in that moment: mortally wound the man she loves and watch him be pulled into hell, powerless to do anything but watch. She did what she thought she had to do, even though it tore her apart in the process. What was her other option, cut off his arm and throw it in? (Sadly I've wondered this very scenario.) His blood opened it, his blood closed it. The small amount to get the process going wasn't going to be enough to reverse it, unfortunately. She did what she could do in the tiny window of time she had.