Being a sire.

[WillowHands]

I think this is the appropriate spot for the subject because in thsi season, we saw the past sirings of Angel, Darla, Druscilla, and Spike. All happened onscreen.

We know vampires and their sires are connected. Angel sensed Darla and vice versa.

Them why couldn't Angel sense Druscilla the same way when she came to town, since he sired her?

The chain is interesting and specific.

The Master sired Darla.
Darla sired Angel.
Angel sired Druscilla.
Druscilla sired Spike.

And then you have Harmony. One of the most compelling parts of the character for me is that she was sired namelessly and randomly. With the others, there seemed to be some, I don't know - destiny - to it. A plan, if you will. But with Harmony, it just seems like random act of violence.

I'm just opening up the discussion because I find the dichotomy of being a sire and also siree a fascinating one the show should have delved into much more.

In the voice of VampWillow:
Questions? Comments?

Hopefully I'll get some good discussion going!

 

[Kana]

I think this is the appropriate spot for the subject because in thsi season, we saw the past sirings of Angel, Darla, Druscilla, and Spike. All happened onscreen.

We know vampires and their sires are connected. Angel sensed Darla and vice versa.

Them why couldn't Angel sense Druscilla the same way when she came to town, since he sired her?

I cannot not even fanwank this. Darla could sense Angel, apparently even when she was human but perhaps that was more to do with emotional connections. Based upon the whole Penn thing, I agree, he should have been dreaming about Dru.

The chain is interesting and specific.

The Master sired Darla.
Darla sired Angel.
Angel sired Druscilla.
Druscilla sired Spike.

And then you have Harmony. One of the most compelling parts of the character for me is that she was sired namelessly and randomly. With the others, there seemed to be some, I don't know - destiny - to it. A plan, if you will. But with Harmony, it just seems like random act of violence

.

Well, if I understand it, I think the act of siring is pleasurable in itself to the sire, much like sex. So it makes sense that many baby vamps are being left to be staked without a watchful sire as a result of 'one-bite stand'. The fanged four were more purposeful in their siring.

I'm just opening up the discussion because I find the dichotomy of being a sire and also siree a fascinating one the show should have delved into much more.

'Tis indeed. I think there are many reasons for siring. Sharing destruction and to corrupt (like Darla) or for possible companionship or love (like Dru) or for the sake of sadism (Angelus), or of course for practical purposes of having lackies. I would be great have look at it by case by case examples and looking at the unique sire/child relationships and how they transcend human relationships. Gtg.

 

[AgentX7k]

I think siring has the same connotations as sex. Some see it as a big deal, a connecting, spiritual thing. Others see it as just a physical act that doesn't mean much. Which is why some of them stick together and others just leave. Also I thought about why Angel didn't sense Drusilla:

1) Maybe she just came into town
2) He was going through a huge amount of emotional baggage so his mind was preoccupied
3) He only sensed that other guy when he started killing.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

Angel also said that he "sometimes" had connections with those he'd sired, so maybe it was just pot luck. Or maybe the writers hadn't thought of that during Buffy (or are we talking about when she came to go mental on LA with Darla? that he didn't sense her?).

 

[white avenger]

But, then, if vampires can sense their sires and their..what? Fledgelings? Chicks? Babies? Minions? Whatever, why was Darla so surprised to see Angel in "The Harvest?" (I know, they weren't sure that Angel was going to be a vampire in those early episodes, but once they had decided, they could have just mentioned something like "Darla managed to escape detection from Angel because she was wearing a magic amulet or something. God knows the two series had amulets for everything else, why not for masking your presence from your immediate vampire family?)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

But, then, if vampires can sense their sires and their..what? Fledgelings? Chicks? Babies? Minions? Whatever, why was Darla so surprised to see Angel in "The Harvest?" (I know, they weren't sure that Angel was going to be a vampire in those early episodes, but once they had decided, they could have just mentioned something like "Darla managed to escape detection from Angel because she was wearing a magic amulet or something. God knows the two series had amulets for everything else, why not for masking your presence from your immediate vampire family?)

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It varies by situation. I see no inconsistency, because when are anyone's various skills 100% the same day-to-day?

 

[Flannen]

Well, if I understand it, I think the act of siring is pleasurable in itself to the sire, much like sex. So it makes sense that many baby vamps are being left to be staked without a watchful sire as a result of 'one-bite stand'. The fanged four were more purposeful in their siring.

Haha, I love that "one bit stand" comment - awesome.

I think that the "sensing" may have also had something to do with their past relationship. Buffy senses when Angel is around (Pangs, Graduation Day Pt II etc) - although just thought - he did drink from her so maybe that theory just goes out of the window....

 

[definition of insane]

I think it may also have something to do with a sense of "pining" or expectation.

Darla and Angel really only sensed each after they knew they were bound to cross paths at some stage. In Darla's she's trying to sense a connection with her ex-lover, whereas Angel might be use those sames senses to try and avoid her. Angel doesn't sense Drucilla because her pressence is unexpected.

In the same vein you can group Buffy and Angel sensing each other. It's because they want to for whatever reason (heal, hide, etc). They are more finely tuned to each other.

Just a random musing anyway. I don't even know if what I said makes sense (it does to me! 😉)

 

[grrarg]

I'm just opening up the discussion because I find the dichotomy of being a sire and also siree a fascinating one the show should have delved into much more.

In the voice of VampWillow:
Questions? Comments?

This made me think of Dopplegangland because I watched it last night. It appeared that Willow's plan to make things in this new sucky world more like the world she knew and loved, was to turn all of the humans she had collected in the Bronze, thus gaining strength and numbers, and creating the Bronze scene that she was familiar with.

Which lead me to wonder why no other vampires (except for that motivational speaker dude in Angel) expressed these intentions. Is it just because if they turned too many humans to vamps, it would disrupt the balance, creating less food with more vamps to feed? Do most vampires share Spike's appreciation for the world the way it is? It just seems like it was bound to come up more with some greedy, power hungry vamps.

 

[IDoDoodle]

Well what about the vampire Lawson from "Why We Fight" that Angel sired when he had a soul? I know he had to out of necessity, but still sired nonetheless. There was an obviously connection between them with him being vampire made by a souled vampire and enduring the same pain and remorse as the Angel, his sire, by giving him a little bit of his soul. I thought it was worth mentioning since this is the only occurrence of something like this happening.

 

[white avenger]

This made me think of Dopplegangland because I watched it last night. It appeared that Willow's plan to make things in this new sucky world more like the world she knew and loved, was to turn all of the humans she had collected in the Bronze, thus gaining strength and numbers, and creating the Bronze scene that she was familiar with.

Which lead me to wonder why no other vampires (except for that motivational speaker dude in Angel) expressed these intentions. Is it just because if they turned too many humans to vamps, it would disrupt the balance, creating less food with more vamps to feed? Do most vampires share Spike's appreciation for the world the way it is? It just seems like it was bound to come up more with some greedy, power hungry vamps.

Most likely vampires further away from the hellmouth tended to keep their siring to a minimum in order to avoid detection, otherwise some vamp with a Genghis Khan complex would have come up with the idea of creating an army and conquering the world. The primary sire/fledgling relationships that we see on "Buffy" and "Angel" seem to be more for the purpose of creating a mate or hunting partner than a whole gang. One or two vampires, or even three or four, staying on the move, being fairly discrete with their feeding (remember Angel , Darla, and Dru having to hide in the mine because Spike was apparently too discriminant with his feeding?) could avoid detection much more easily than a whole gang.