Believability

[arabella]

A group of teenagers living in California and none of them owning cell phones.

They really weren't common place among middle to upper middle class people until around the 4th season of Buffy...the show does reference pagers ("if the apocalypse comes, beep me.") in the early seasons, which were very common place. It is odd that by season 6 and 7 they hadn't been incorporated at all.

Overall, I guess I am pretty good at blindly suspending reality for the sake of entertainment since nothing really bothered me too much. Unfortunately a lot of TV shows require us to just go with the idea that people can live better than middle class lifestyles on less than middle class wages.
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[thevikingsgirl]

Seeing Red all the way around. Buffy and her injured back from fighting a vamp when she's hardly ever had an injury like that the entire series, the attempted rape, the stray bullet. The whole thing was stupid.

 

[Fusions2]

Willow and Tara never getting jobs through season 6 to season 7 (Willow mainly of course) to help Buffy out financially. Using up Joyce's will money too, who does that?! That bugs the crap out of me because Willow could have got a decent job with her intelligence and could have helped Buffy out a lot.

Why did it take 7 seasons to find out about Potential Slayers? I had always assumed that, that wasn't even a possibility. In some way it cheapened the whole one and only part of being a Slayer as there were suddenly hundreds of Potentials and Watchers training them throughout the world.

Sunnydale having a train station, bus station, docks and airport! I thought it was a town, although it started to look like a small city by season 6. Far too many to make it feel like a town that was believable.

Oz's werewolf change from season 2 to season 4. I actually liked the first werewolf look in season 2, in season 3-4 though it was horrible. Oz looked like a giant hamster with fangs, why change it?

 

[InsaneMystic]

Sunnydale having a train station, bus station, docks and airport! I thought it was a town, although it started to look like a small city by season 6. Far too many to make it feel like a town that was believable.

Train and bus station never seemed odd to me at all... enough specks around where I live that have those and would definitely be smaller than HS-Era Sunnydale so I never once wondered about that. But the docks, international airport, university? Hell yes that's weird.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Though I agree with all the above posts, I personally don't like to dwell on this stuff too much because without quite a lot of suspension of disbelief, it would become difficult to enjoy the show--let alone fall in love with it.
So while I acknowledge that there are tons of "unbelievable" things that occur, there's just one thing that really bothers me:

The fact that there are "demon bars," Buffy knows about them and basically pretends they don't exist unless she wants "information." I'm not saying it'd be wise for her to go in on a given night and take 20 out herself, but there are quite a few times when we see that there are like 2 demons in there-- who are drunk on yak urine--and she could easily take them on. On nights when there were more, she could have taken Riley, Faith, Spike--anyone who was fighting by her side on that given day--and done some serious damage. And why not? She goes into the cemetery every night to grab vamps and stake them before then can harm anyone; how does that same concept not apply to demon bars? 🙄
I guess one could argue that she needs to have a place to go to get information about the goings on in the demon world, but I'd argue that if she keeps taking out lots of demons there will ultimately be less need to find out about them, no? LOL. And it's not like they're all that helpful. Only one I can think of that they got any real use out of, (besides Willie the bartender of course) was that guy Anya slept with who opened the portal to the Baljoxa's eye or whatever.

*****OH, and of course, the infamously weak Turok Han(s?) in Chosen. Joss wants us to just get over it since it was a symbolic gesture and I'm fine with that, but I really think that more creativity could have lead to a more believable fight.

 

[LadyLavinia]

In any case, I never thought Michael's monomania about his son was convincing.

Why do fans of science-fiction and fantasy find it so difficult to deal with or accept fictional parents with children . . . unless those characters are portrayed as "ideal" or perfect parents? Is this some kind of fantasy or adolescent wishful thinking on their part?

The fact that there are "demon bars," Buffy knows about them and basically pretends they don't exist unless she wants "information." I'm not saying it'd be wise for her to go in on a given night and take 20 out herself, but there are quite a few times when we see that there are like 2 demons in there-- who are drunk on yak urine--and she could easily take them on

That sounds like murder to me. I don't care if the "victims" in question are humans, demons or vampires. It's murder. Which is why I have trouble with Buffy killing vampires who haven't killed or fed off from anyone. It's killing someone because that being is deemed "an Other" and encourages bigotry on a subtle level to those watching shows such as "BUFFY".

 

[Hale Caesar]

The fact that there are "demon bars," Buffy knows about them and basically pretends they don't exist unless she wants "information." I'm not saying it'd be wise for her to go in on a given night and take 20 out herself, but there are quite a few times when we see that there are like 2 demons in there-- who are drunk on yak urine--and she could easily take them on.

Do I need to remind you that Lorne ran a Demon bar? Not all demons in the Buffverse are bad

 

[Gum Gnome33]

That sounds like murder to me. I don't care if the "victims" in question are humans, demons or vampires. It's murder. Which is why I have trouble with Buffy killing vampires who haven't killed or fed off from anyone. It's killing someone because that being is deemed "an Other" and encourages bigotry on a subtle level to those watching shows such as "BUFFY".

Well, you can call it murder. But then why watch the show? Buffy's job as the slayer is to kill demons and vampires. Joss sets up a world in which some demons and some vampires are good, or can be, in order to create an interesting story. I started a thread a while back about what it must be like for a Slayer to have a relationship with a vampire who found a way to be good even without a soul, and asked people if they thought that maybe she should reconsider whom she was killing during her nightly patrols (given that they could have the potential to be good just as Spike could), or at least feel torn up about it.
It's an incredibly interesting concept to me, and if I was the slayer I honestly don't know what I would do. I might not go to demon bars and kill as many as I could. I might not go on nightly patrols either. But that's what Buffy does; going into the demon bars would be consistent with what her character (and watcher, and all the other scoobies) believe is the best way to fight evil. They don't sit and wait around for someone to be killed before attacking the soulless "forces of darkness" in the world. Like or dislike this, it's how the show runs. Ergo, my issue with the demon bars; it's about consistency.

Calling the killing of demons and vampires before they have hurt anyone bigotry, (even subtle), is very extreme. If Joss hadn't created a couple of demons who are good, naturally, (Lorne and Clem), and a couple of vampires who come to be good in one way or another, his original premise of "forces of darkness must be stopped" and "Buffy alone must do it" would make this all very simple. But bigotry--"killing something deemed as "an other"--is not what is going on here. Buffy does not kill beings because they are different from her; I think that is an extremely radical interpretation of the show--of her nightly patrols, etc. I understand taking issue with the killing of random vampires and demons, as I stated above. Especially when you've seen firsthand that some can be good it really becomes a problem--I agree with that. I see the gravity in it. But to call it bigotry? I think that's unfair.

 

[BuffyElevated]

There are a lot of moments on BtVS when I went "Yeah right! That could never happen!". But the fact that I was watching a show about a vampire slayer who kills demons stopped me from every seriously arguing over it. LOL

 

[Icarium]

That sounds like murder to me. I don't care if the "victims" in question are humans, demons or vampires. It's murder. Which is why I have trouble with Buffy killing vampires who haven't killed or fed off from anyone. It's killing someone because that being is deemed "an Other" and encourages bigotry on a subtle level to those watching shows such as "BUFFY".

Bigotry? Don't make me laugh. If the idea was to encourage bigotry, they did a really piss-poor job considering most BtVS fans love Spike, Angel, Anya, etc. Killing demons and vampires for what they are, instead of making sure to witness them do something evil makes complete sense in the world the characters inhabit. There is a reason why those creatures are called demons and vampires - and not Star Trek aliens. AtS tried to change that but by doing it completely pissed all over continuity. And funnily enough, in doing so they made the characters look more bigoted - in BtVS demons are killed because everyone thinks all of them are evil, with possibly one or two exceptions. Okay, maybe that concept is wrong but as far as the characters know humans have a possibility of reforming their behaviour and getting redeemed while demons are pretty much the equivalent of rabid animals who would always go for killing and destruction. On AtS everybody knows there are whole species of demons who are just as capable of moral behaviour and guilt as humans, yet they kill them nevertheless if they have a reason for that, while giving endless chances to the vilest of humans.

And yes, the demon bar was a freaking stupid idea. Especially with the Initiative looking all around for demons and somehow managing to miss it, while Riley randomly came across it when he was having doubts about the whole Initiative thing. Ditto for the vamp hos. Especially the bit about the Council tolerating them. Since when was the Council all about live and let live?!?

 

[VisionGirl]

There are a lot of moments on BtVS when I went "Yeah right! That could never happen!". But the fact that I was watching a show about a vampire slayer who kills demons stopped me from every seriously arguing over it. LOL

This. None of this stuff really bothers me that much, and I was about to think "I can't think of anything" until I came across the following quotes.

How the clause of Angel's curse was never even researched. Even a little bit.

I can't imagine Willow not looking into it.

This, totally. This is the one thing that drove me crazy. But maybe that's because we're Bangelites! Maybe no one else (i.e. Spuffies) cares. 😀

Why did it take 7 seasons to find out about Potential Slayers? I had always assumed that, that wasn't even a possibility. In some way it cheapened the whole one and only part of being a Slayer as there were suddenly hundreds of Potentials and Watchers training them throughout the world.

Especially since it was pretty clear that Kendra had been raised & trained by a Watcher almost her entire life. She & he(?) knew who she was, and her family accepted it.

And yes, the demon bar was a freaking stupid idea. Especially with the Initiative looking all around for demons and somehow managing to miss it, while Riley randomly came across it when he was having doubts about the whole Initiative thing. Ditto for the vamp hos. Especially the bit about the Council tolerating them. Since when was the Council all about live and let live?!?

Hmm, I don't know, the Council strikes me like politicians, they'll tolerate something as long as it's profitable for them or doesn't get in their way.

 

[The Unspoken]

Bigotry? Don't make me laugh. If the idea was to encourage bigotry, they did a really piss-poor job considering most BtVS fans love Spike, Angel, Anya, etc. Killing demons and vampires for what they are, instead of making sure to witness them do something evil makes complete sense in the world the characters inhabit. There is a reason why those creatures are called demons and vampires - and not Star Trek aliens. AtS tried to change that but by doing it completely pissed all over continuity. And funnily enough, in doing so they made the characters look more bigoted - in BtVS demons are killed because everyone thinks all of them are evil, with possibly one or two exceptions. Okay, maybe that concept is wrong but as far as the characters know humans have a possibility of reforming their behaviour and getting redeemed while demons are pretty much the equivalent of rabid animals who would always go for killing and destruction. On AtS everybody knows there are whole species of demons who are just as capable of moral behaviour and guilt as humans, yet they kill them nevertheless if they have a reason for that, while giving endless chances to the vilest of humans.

I don't agree about it breaking continuity, but it is cause for great pragmatic concern, though it depends just on how rare friendly demonic races are. You could argue that even demons of the friendly races are likely to associate with the 'bad' element simply by virtue of their demonic nature, since most demonic races are naturally evil (the friendly races are the exception). They would have to research whether a certain demon is of a friendly race - and such information might not be always present. It's been a while since I watched 'Angel', but I don't think this is how Angel Investigations typically did business. They do frequently research the demons they're facing and in other instances I guess you could call it collateral damage, if it is indeed a demon of a friendly race. Oh well...

As for vampires, I don't think there's ever been a soulless one that's been shown to not enjoy killing and eating people, so I wouldn't regard that as an issue to begin with.

And on an on-topic note, Sunnydale has 2 universities: Crestwood College and Sunnydale UC.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Bigotry? Don't make me laugh. If the idea was to encourage bigotry, they did a really piss-poor job considering most BtVS fans love Spike, Angel, Anya, etc.

I disagree. I believe that the series did a very good job in supporting the idea of extreme prejudice against what any social group would consider to be an "Other".

As for vampires, I don't think there's ever been a soulless one that's been shown to not enjoy killing and eating people, so I wouldn't regard that as an issue to begin with.

The difference between us and vampires is that we have slaughterhouses and farmers to do the job for us. But we sure don't mind eating other beings. Or using other beings for reasons other than food. And let's be frank. Humans are basically aggressive beings who are quick to use an excuse to indulge in violence or support a violent action against someone or a group we don't view as one of "us".

 

[caitaintdead]

The number one thing that bothers me is probably the typical 'television land' stuff. Why does Buffy wear dangly earrings and boots and her hair down when on patrol? Why doesn't she wear sneakers and tracksuits on patrol? Wouldn't that be more efficient? I know they show this in the earlier seasons but in Chosen (and much of season 7) does she really expect the potentials to take her seriously when she goes into battle wearing healed boots?

 

[Kean]

This, totally. This is the one thing that drove me crazy. But maybe that's because we're Bangelites! Maybe no one else (i.e. Spuffies) cares.

Perhaps. But even if we take our Bangel bias out of it, I still think researching the curse further would be something Willow would do. She's too inquisitive not to. In fact, it was that inquisitiveness that got her into magic in the first place.

 

[The Unspoken]

Perhaps. But even if we take our Bangel bias out of it, I still think researching the curse further would be something Willow would do. She's too inquisitive not to. In fact, it was that inquisitiveness that got her into magic in the first place.

To quote Jenny Calendar herself: 'those magicks are long lost even to my people'.

The difference between us and vampires is that we have slaughterhouses and farmers to do the job for us. But we sure don't mind eating other beings. Or using other beings for reasons other than food. And let's be frank. Humans are basically aggressive beings who are quick to use an excuse to indulge in violence or support a violent action against someone or a group we don't view as one of "us".

Uhm...no. Morality issues aside, vampires don't need to eat humans, they can survive on animal blood or they can rob the blood bank. Vampires eat humans because they enjoy it.

Now to tackle those morality issues: humans are morally superior to both animals and vampires. Animals aren't able to make moral judgments (for example, animals like lions and sharks will eat a human simply because one is in their vicinity and they're hungry). Something similar applies to vampires, who simply think the nutritious value of a human life outweighs its intrinsic value.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

The difference between us and vampires is that we have slaughterhouses and farmers to do the job for us. But we sure don't mind eating other beings. Or using other beings for reasons other than food. And let's be frank. Humans are basically aggressive beings who are quick to use an excuse to indulge in violence or support a violent action against someone or a group we don't view as one of "us".

I don't disagree with this at all on a basic level. But if what you're saying is true--if most vampires are essentially like lions or other predators found in nature who simply kill to eat-- then Buffy could just as easily be killing all the predators in the animal kingdom to prevent them from killing humans and other animals, to keep consistent. But then we'd be arguing about the morality of letting Buffy kill predators since they *are* animals after all, too. For the same reason, as I think you're implying, she obviously can't just go around killing humans just in case there is a murderer in the bunch. So if we agree that both are ridiculous ideas, the line has to be drawn somewhere for Joss to make a solid, believable show with some sort of upstanding message. That's where the whole "evil creatures" bit comes in.

Now I will say that as a former vegetarian, (I had to incorporate some chicken into my diet for health reasons but still do not eat mammals), I've always had a bit of an issue with the show when "reformed" vampires still drink animal's blood--as if to say either that vampires eating animals is akin to humans being vegetarian (which is ridiculous) or neither humans nor vampires should care about eating animals as long as they don't eat humans. This is a topic for another thread of course--sorry!--one which I always wanted to start but was afraid might be way too messy of an issue to tackle.

 

[Ollehh]

Zoe mentioned the other day, and I agree with it completely, that Kendra becomes a weak fighter against Dru towards the end of Becoming Part 1. I know Kendra is supposed to be beaten so it allows to Giles get kidnapped and create a plot, but still, compared to What's My Line, she's terrible.

 

[The Unspoken]

Kean agrees: Until Jenny found them and translated the curse.

She translated the spell to restore Angel's soul. Information about the true happiness clause however doesn't seem to exist: it may very well be an improvised gypsy spell or an unintended magic fluke. Though the Willow of the later seasons could arguably create a new spell to remove the true happiness clause, or at least try. Of course, she spent most of the UPN years going cold turkey...

Zoe mentioned the other day, and I agree with it completely, that Kendra becomes a weak fighter against Dru towards the end of Becoming Part 1. I know Kendra is supposed to be beaten so it allows to Giles get kidnapped and create a plot, but still, compared to What's My Line, she's terrible.

Are you talking about the hypnosis part? Because I recall a certain other Slayer also dying as soon as she faced a vampire who had hypnotic powers. Unfortunately, Xander was knocked unconscious this time around. 🙂

 

[Ollehh]

Are you talking about the hypnosis part? Because I recall a certain other Slayer also dying as soon as she faced a vampire who had hypnotic powers. Unfortunately, Xander was knocked unconscious this time around. 🙂

I see your point, and I agree. But if you look at WML Pt 1, Kendra manages to rough Buffy up quite a bit, then in Pt 2, she and Buffy make a good tag-team. However, once we get to Becoming Pt 1, just before Dru arrives, Kendra ends up being surrounded by three vampires, even though earlier in the season we were shown that she was an able fighter, and probably equal to Buffy, and yet she can't take down three vampires? Yes, she was surrounded, but Buffy would've found a way out of it easily.
I know it's necessary for the plot; Giles getting kidnapped and leading to Buffy getting kicked out and eventually leaving town, but they could've made the Kendra/Dru fight slightly longer, as all she does is shove Dru around a bit, which makes her look as strong as Willow or Cordelia (in the early seasons, anyway). You could put it down to Dru being stronger due to the ritual in WML?, but Spike manages to overpower her in Becoming Pt 2.
I think I'm more bothered by the fight scene rather than the hypnosis part, Kendra really doesn't show that she has slayer powers during the fight. As I said, she just shoves Dru a few feet back and that's about it, no more than what other, human character's could do (without magic or slayer strength.)