Better comic continuations: After the Fall vs. Buffy Season 8
- Thread starter Joshua
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white avenger
white avenger
Though I wasn't particularly happy with the way that they survived the battle in the alley, I have to say that "After The Fall" was better than Season 8, simply because it directly followed up on how "Angel" Season 5ended.
Season 8 for some unknown reason jumps ahead for 18 months or 2 years, with little or no real explanation as to how and why Buffy and her new team ended up where they were. We last saw Buffy, Faith, and the others standing beside a crater that used to be Sunnydale, then, suddenly, we're in a castle in Scotland with a small army of new Slayers, and are told that there are several hundred active Slayers in at least 2 more teams elsewhere. A far cry from the "handful" that Giles talked about in Season 7. Sure, there is some back story tossed in occasionally, but way too meager, in my opinion, and the whole story as revealed in "The Girl In Question" was a hoax set up by Giles on some lame excuse (but almost certainly, in my opinion, to block any actual communication between Angel and the real Buffy) The time between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8 was potentially the most important and innovative periods in the entire history of the Slayer line, and it's just breezed over as though it never happened. It was a storyteller's gold mine, and Joss just tossed it away.
Season 8 for some unknown reason jumps ahead for 18 months or 2 years, with little or no real explanation as to how and why Buffy and her new team ended up where they were. We last saw Buffy, Faith, and the others standing beside a crater that used to be Sunnydale, then, suddenly, we're in a castle in Scotland with a small army of new Slayers, and are told that there are several hundred active Slayers in at least 2 more teams elsewhere. A far cry from the "handful" that Giles talked about in Season 7. Sure, there is some back story tossed in occasionally, but way too meager, in my opinion, and the whole story as revealed in "The Girl In Question" was a hoax set up by Giles on some lame excuse (but almost certainly, in my opinion, to block any actual communication between Angel and the real Buffy) The time between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8 was potentially the most important and innovative periods in the entire history of the Slayer line, and it's just breezed over as though it never happened. It was a storyteller's gold mine, and Joss just tossed it away.
Silverspike
Scooby
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That was the thing I had the biggest issues with. I think Whedons misjudged his readership very badly with that one, not realsing that many would actually want to know what brought Buffy and her friends to that point.
But then judging by how this cracktastic tale unfolded he misjudged lots of things. 🙁
Taake
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
AtF no question.
I actually enjoyed S8 more as a comic, but the continuatuion in AtF was flawless. The characters, twists and turns.
Some inspired stuff- like Vampire Gunn, ghost Wesley, human Angel, and Fred/Illyria.
Also it was nice to see Conner, Nina, Kate and Gwen (plus Lorne and Grue) fighting the good fight.
The only part I didn't particularly like was Spike's arc. He seemed to take a step back characteristic wise. 🙁
My main problem with the comics at the moment is the 18 month gap between Season 7 and 8- they really do something with it to answer all those nagging questions. 🙂
I actually enjoyed S8 more as a comic, but the continuatuion in AtF was flawless. The characters, twists and turns.
Some inspired stuff- like Vampire Gunn, ghost Wesley, human Angel, and Fred/Illyria.
Also it was nice to see Conner, Nina, Kate and Gwen (plus Lorne and Grue) fighting the good fight.
The only part I didn't particularly like was Spike's arc. He seemed to take a step back characteristic wise. 🙁
My main problem with the comics at the moment is the 18 month gap between Season 7 and 8- they really do something with it to answer all those nagging questions. 🙂
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
Hmmm I would say After The Fall was a smoother transition from the show into comics. I'm actually looking forward to re reading both now that I'm a bit more used to the format.
I think Season 8 suffers from scaling up the location and threat while having to cut back on the dialogue. It was just quite difficult to follow at times and didn't always feel like the show.
After The Fall kept everything much tighter and confined to LA. Although I still think with the back drop of fire and brimstone it felt significantly different to the series.
I think Season 8 suffers from scaling up the location and threat while having to cut back on the dialogue. It was just quite difficult to follow at times and didn't always feel like the show.
After The Fall kept everything much tighter and confined to LA. Although I still think with the back drop of fire and brimstone it felt significantly different to the series.
It's interesting to see everyone's opinion. For me, I didn't have much of a problem with the time jump in s8. It leaves to option to explore that later in a new comic anyway, it's not like TV where those years were thrown away. And one thing I do like about the time jump is that they connected Fray's storyline (which I didn't even know was cannon). I thought that was really well done. What I didn't like about the comic is that they kept the one thing that made s7 sort of annoying, being all the other slayers. I would have preferred if they had gone back to the core group. You can keep much of the storyline intact even if you don't have a huge army of slayer.
Silverspike
Scooby
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Yeah Th Slayers really do get me down. Couldn't stand them and for me they never changed in my eyes to being anything more then cannon fodder.
I also vastly prefer After the Fall. Imo it's the comic that came nearest to capturing the spirit of the parent show.
I also vastly prefer After the Fall. Imo it's the comic that came nearest to capturing the spirit of the parent show.
I never managed to get into AtF.
Not even sure if I ever bought all the issues and I have absolutely no recollection what the story was about. It just didn't stick.
Had problems with season 8 too at first.
For some reason I had a hard time to follow what happened in them, just like I did with AtF.
But season 8 did manage to get me interested enough so I've read them again once or twice which made me enjoy them lots more.
/SK
Not even sure if I ever bought all the issues and I have absolutely no recollection what the story was about. It just didn't stick.
Had problems with season 8 too at first.
For some reason I had a hard time to follow what happened in them, just like I did with AtF.
But season 8 did manage to get me interested enough so I've read them again once or twice which made me enjoy them lots more.
/SK
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Definitely season 8 for me. I though AtF was awful.
I didn't like the story, or the writing, didn't like the new characters and absolutely HATED the art.
Season 8 made sense, it might have gotten too big for itself as it went on, but the first half of the season was a great continuation of the story. I have no interest in the initial period after season 7, since so long had passed since the show was on the air I think it would have felt disingenuous to continue from that point straight away.
Jumping ahead made sense, in the same way we dont see the clean up after the fight with Glory, the gang burying Buffy etc - it's stagnant to pick up straight away, you have to move the characters forward to move the story forward and fill us in on the back story.
I didn't like the story, or the writing, didn't like the new characters and absolutely HATED the art.
Season 8 made sense, it might have gotten too big for itself as it went on, but the first half of the season was a great continuation of the story. I have no interest in the initial period after season 7, since so long had passed since the show was on the air I think it would have felt disingenuous to continue from that point straight away.
Jumping ahead made sense, in the same way we dont see the clean up after the fight with Glory, the gang burying Buffy etc - it's stagnant to pick up straight away, you have to move the characters forward to move the story forward and fill us in on the back story.
If I'm being honest, I don't love either comic. I think ATF is better than S8 on a whole but I don't love either story and some of the dialogue in ATF felt foreign, lacking the rhythms of the show. Meanwhile, I think S8 on the whole turned into a disaster but within that there is some brilliance, Faith's Brian K. Vaughan arc was perfect, as was Whedon's The Chain. But the whole thing falls apart and does a lot of damage to a lot of characters.
Robb Stark
King in the North
"After the Fall", hands down.
In all honesty, S8 is a jumbled mess. It's way, WAY to big, the characters make crazy decisions that are never followed up on (Buffy robs banks now?), shock value is used to cover thin storylines (look, Dawn's a giant! Now she's a centaur!) and not many of them make much sense in a linear fashion. I can't remember the name of the arc, but Buffy in Nepal and the subsequent invasion are some of the most eye-roll worthy comics I've ever read. They make zero sense, and make Buffy seem like a crazy person. Spike had virtually no role; he just shows up late in the game, somehow knows absolutely everything and then smokes a lot of cigarettes. It's never explained (that I can remember) how Angel suddenly has all these extensive contacts in the American military who trust him so much they're ready and willing to invade other countries and just hope no one notices. It's never explained why Buffy and Angel need Superman powers. There's just so, SO much of S8 that's just garbage.
And Twilight? Aside from simply not enjoying it character wise, is ridiculous. It shouldn't take me coming on here and reading extensive explanations of just what the hell Twilight was and what it was doing to follow the story. That's stupid.
By contrast, I thought AtF felt like the show. It was big too, yeah, but the size of it didn't subjugate the plot or the characters, which happened badly in S8. I thought all the characters fit, and the dialogue worked. Spike had a great niche for most of the run, there were awesome twists (Angel's humanity, Spike secretly helping L.A. citizens when you think he's not), Connor was excellent. Yeah, I thought AtF was great.
S8 just makes no sense.
In all honesty, S8 is a jumbled mess. It's way, WAY to big, the characters make crazy decisions that are never followed up on (Buffy robs banks now?), shock value is used to cover thin storylines (look, Dawn's a giant! Now she's a centaur!) and not many of them make much sense in a linear fashion. I can't remember the name of the arc, but Buffy in Nepal and the subsequent invasion are some of the most eye-roll worthy comics I've ever read. They make zero sense, and make Buffy seem like a crazy person. Spike had virtually no role; he just shows up late in the game, somehow knows absolutely everything and then smokes a lot of cigarettes. It's never explained (that I can remember) how Angel suddenly has all these extensive contacts in the American military who trust him so much they're ready and willing to invade other countries and just hope no one notices. It's never explained why Buffy and Angel need Superman powers. There's just so, SO much of S8 that's just garbage.
And Twilight? Aside from simply not enjoying it character wise, is ridiculous. It shouldn't take me coming on here and reading extensive explanations of just what the hell Twilight was and what it was doing to follow the story. That's stupid.
By contrast, I thought AtF felt like the show. It was big too, yeah, but the size of it didn't subjugate the plot or the characters, which happened badly in S8. I thought all the characters fit, and the dialogue worked. Spike had a great niche for most of the run, there were awesome twists (Angel's humanity, Spike secretly helping L.A. citizens when you think he's not), Connor was excellent. Yeah, I thought AtF was great.
S8 just makes no sense.
Silverspike
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EVIL UU
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
After reading them both again I have to say that S8 is more true to the main characters than AtF and therefore a better follow-up.
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles are mostly true to character, we have a strong first half of the season (that, admittedly, starts to fall apart round about 'Retreat' and the trip to Nepal- but Yay to Oz returning. 🙂)
The first arc, the Faith arc, the Dracula/japanese vamps arc are all really good, solidily plotted character stuff.
AtF has a lot more holes than I remember and some of the character stuff doesn't make sense (Conner/Gwen? Why? Wesley working for W&H because he signed a contract- apparently. Spike going back to being more style than substance, and Vamp-Gunn is interesting up to a point, but the pay off is rather weak, imo.)
The only things I really enjoyed were Angel's stuff and the Fred/Illyria complications.
Plus the whole thing gets ret-conned at the end, which is kinda annoying.
And then we had the terrible follow-up IDW run...🙁 (Angels? Really boring were-people, Illyria getting horny and wanting to jump Conner? Spike hooking up with random 'bad girl' characters. Although I did like the telepathic fish.)
Buffy S9 may have been dull, but it wasn't that bad (plus A&F was great.)
Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles are mostly true to character, we have a strong first half of the season (that, admittedly, starts to fall apart round about 'Retreat' and the trip to Nepal- but Yay to Oz returning. 🙂)
The first arc, the Faith arc, the Dracula/japanese vamps arc are all really good, solidily plotted character stuff.
AtF has a lot more holes than I remember and some of the character stuff doesn't make sense (Conner/Gwen? Why? Wesley working for W&H because he signed a contract- apparently. Spike going back to being more style than substance, and Vamp-Gunn is interesting up to a point, but the pay off is rather weak, imo.)
The only things I really enjoyed were Angel's stuff and the Fred/Illyria complications.
Plus the whole thing gets ret-conned at the end, which is kinda annoying.
And then we had the terrible follow-up IDW run...🙁 (Angels? Really boring were-people, Illyria getting horny and wanting to jump Conner? Spike hooking up with random 'bad girl' characters. Although I did like the telepathic fish.)
Buffy S9 may have been dull, but it wasn't that bad (plus A&F was great.)
Robb Stark
King in the North
I thought the Dracula arc was good up to a point, but it completely jumps the shark. Why do ninja vampires need to create a gigantic dinosaur robot? To give Dawn something to do?
white avenger
white avenger
Robb Stark
King in the North
Yeah, I figured as much, but that doesn't really have a place in BTVS. It just came across as ridiculously silly.
Apparently mecca!Dawn was something Joss wanted to do in the show but they never would have had the budget for it so it was something he really wanted to do in S8. To me it sounds like he engineered a story in which he could use the idea, rather than having an organic story in which it actually makes sense.
R
Robb Stark
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ladydorotea
Scooby
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Honestly, as far as I am concerned, at least giant Dawn and Mecha Dawn were (over the top and crazy) metaphors of problems that grow out of hand while you are not watching, as well as children - who tend to grow and their problem to grow in size with them. It could have been more subtly executed, but it did not deter me from the comic, or that particular arc, since it went along with Dawn's personal history not at all badly. There were worse moments than that and much much worse metaphorical blunders.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
For me, the 'robots in Buffy' shark was already jumped waaaay back in S2 'Ted', where we're all supposed to believe that a guy from the 1950's managed to build a life-model decoy of himself over and over again? Using 1960's tech?
Okay, Joss, I'll buy it. 🙂
We'd already seen Moloch's efforts in 'I Robot, You Jane.' and it was pretty laughable considering he had a tech company at his command.
And then we had Warren ( a grad student) who builds April and the Buffy-Bot and so on...so giant mecha Dawn built by evil Japananese vampires I can just about accept. (I mean, at least it looked like a frikkin robot.)
Also, as its been pointed out, what happens to Dawn in S8 works as a nice metaphor for what her character is going through, so it fits. 🙂
Plot contrivances I can stand as long as the characters remain consistant and recognisable in regards to the story, and in S8 they mostly do, up until that final arc at least.
Oh, and to me, I like the fact that Angel and Spike aren't in the season that much, we got to see Buffy as a character without any of the shipping stuff weighing her down, at least not until the end.