Better Ultimate Bangel episode? I Will Remember You or Becoming, Part 2

If we are talking purely about the B/A relationship and leave everything else aside, then IWRY.

The episode is all B/A episodes in one, plus one we have never seen. 'Heartbreaking sewer talk' is The Prom, sacrificing your live for the other person is Graduation Day, choosing the world and the people in it over your own happiness is Becoming Part 2, going to kill a demon while things are awkward is both pre-dating and post-Angelus. There is more but that's just off the top of my head.

The new factor is them being able to enjoy each other free of the constraints of the curse. And do human things together like eating in bed.

So yeah, IWRY is we are stricktly talking only about B/A.
 
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Yeah I think Becoming is the better episode of television full stop. I think its one of the best episodes of either show. But purely as a Bangel episode IWY gets it.
For me Becoming P2 is the best episode of either show. In terms of BtVS it's also IMO the most defining one of the entire run. Nothing shows who Buffy is as a person in the face of dire circumstances and what she is willing to sacrifice for the greater good better than this episode. I know plenty of people see 'The Gift' as that but not me. Suicidal resignation does not a hero make.

Becoming P2 is the only BtVS episode that made me cry, ever. That's how powerful that final moment was for me. Not because of Bangel but because of Buffy.
 
Great episode but this is Bangelus - ish.... or Grace/James. Although metaphorically - clearly this is all about Buffy and Angel only its not really them, right?
It is about Buffy's love for Angel and the trauma of losing him and her irrational shame about how it happened. As Buffy is my main POV in the relationship, I guess I don't strictly need Angel to be present. Does that make sense? I would say The Killer in Me is a good Tillow episode, even if Amber left the show the year before. At least Angel is sorta present in the flesh in IOHEFY and he gets to forgive Buffy.
 
As much as I love IWRY, it pisses me off that after a few weeks Angel acted like he was the one who forgot and 6 months later he uses Buffy's words---needed more time before she could see him for cases because she was still in love with him and it hurt too much to be around him---as an excuse for not informing her of the fate of the only other person of her species (Slayers are just as much a species as vampires). "I was trying to save someone's soul. That's what I do here and you're not a part of that. And that's your choice, remember?" Sanctuary and later Cangel take away some of my enjoyment of IWRY. Buffy deserves better than the happiest day of her life being with a man who went on to side with her rapist against her and then got obsessed with one of Xander's ex girlfriends.

Becoming #2 works as a Buffy as Slayer episode as much as it does a Bangel one.

* Whistler.
Buffy correctly guessed that he was an immortal demon sent down to Earth to even the score between Good & Evil. In the comics it is revealed Whistler was the offspring of an Old One (pure blood demon) & a Power That Be and has precognitive abilities. In Intervention, Giles told Buffy the desert location she would embark on her spirit quest was "a sacred place near the Hellmouth." She wondered how something holy could reside near so much evil. He said there is "sort of an equalization of forces." Angel & Buffy have always represented balance. Vampire & Slayer, male & female, tall & short, broad & petite, brunet & blonde, rain & sunshine, darkness & light, sinner searching for salvation & suffering saint, months in Hell & months in Heaven, son (Connor) & daughter (Dawn), tai chi & yoga, First Evil & PTB, WC & WR&H, masculine AtS & feminine BtVS. Every way they differ complements each other. It's like how on Xena Warrior Princess there were two complete chakrams, one dark/one light, and when Xena merged them it created an even better chakram that could be split in half but still work. It represented Xena & Gabrielle (yin yang) and their relationship (soulmates).

* Buffy sending Angel to Hell.
She looks back at it as a defining moment of her life. Their love for each other both saved and damned him. Her first death was about the Way of the Warrior and proved she could sacrifice herself to fight evil, her second death was about the Way of Love and proved she could sacrifice herself not as a casualty of war but symbol ala Jesus, a gift to mankind. Buffy sacrificing Angel was the turning point. She chose what she thought would be an eternity of suffering, destroying the soul of the person she loved most, and it was the right thing to do. It was the most evil thing she ever did and one of the hardest experiences of her life and yet it was for the greater good. She needed to find that third solution in The Gift because she needed to believe in something better, you do not win against the Darkness by killing the Dawn (pun intended). She said as much in First Date, "You can't beat evil by doing evil." It only pushes it back underground for a little while. Evil needed to be cleansed, cured. She told her Spirit Guide, "Death is not a gift. If I have to kill demons to make the world a better place, then I kill demons. But it is not a gift to anyone." She was talking about violence and hate and despair. It is all Evil knows and she is on the same page as Gabrielle that "Peace is worth fighting for" but also like her, she gets that the opposite is forgiveness and love and joy and those do more than protect the world, they save it. If she hadn't of killed Angel she might not have reached the state of This Cycle Has To Stop and maybe would've let Dawn die and that would've reshaped the story too much. I love that she has the memory of being in Heaven for five months, that she became Queen of the Slayers, that the Hellmouth was closed, that she has the Scythe, that her journey as a hero got so epic and far reaching and affected entire universes and she became a major player instead of just a formidable warrior.
 
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EarthLogic
EarthLogic
Wow ,you condensed so many connections and parallels in that post. Bravo!
As much as I love IWRY, it pisses me off that after a few weeks Angel acted like he was the one who forgot and 6 months later he uses Buffy's words---needed more time before she could see him for cases because she was still in love with him and it hurt too much to be around him---as an excuse for not informing her of the fate of the only other person of her species (Slayers are just as much a species as vampires). "I was trying to save someone's soul. That's what I do here and you're not a part of that. And that's your choice, remember?" Sanctuary and later Cangel take away some of my enjoyment of IWRY. Buffy deserves better than the happiest day of her life being with a man who went on to side with her rapist against her and then got obsessed with one of Xander's ex girlfriends.
Communication is a two-way street. Buffy didn't have the decency to inform Angel that Faith was out of her coma, still as murderous as ever and escaped Sunnydale. Angel contacted Sunnydale after Faith almost killed him and that's how Buffy heard. If Buffy had actually told Angel before, Angel and crew might have been more prepared for the possibility of Faith crossing paths with them. And Cordelia might have been spared getting socked in the face and Wesley wouldn't have been tortured.

As for Angel's 'excuses'. Perfectly valid so I don't get the problem. It was Buffy who declared that each have their town and neither can do whatever they want in the others town. Granted, she made that rule for him only but that rule for me is a two-way street also. They are not part of each others lives anymore so neither owes the other constant updates. I don't see how anyone can be angry at Angel for simply abiding by Buffy's rules. It's like teaching a child that hitting people is wrong by hitting the child.
 
Communication is a two-way street. Buffy didn't have the decency to inform Angel that Faith was out of her coma, still as murderous as ever and escaped Sunnydale. Angel contacted Sunnydale after Faith almost killed him and that's how Buffy heard. If Buffy had actually told Angel before, Angel and crew might have been more prepared for the possibility of Faith crossing paths with them. And Cordelia might have been spared getting socked in the face and Wesley wouldn't have been tortured.

As for Angel's 'excuses'. Perfectly valid so I don't get the problem. It was Buffy who declared that each have their town and neither can do whatever they want in the others town. Granted, she made that rule for him only but that rule for me is a two-way street also. They are not part of each others lives anymore so neither owes the other constant updates. I don't see how anyone can be angry at Angel for simply abiding by Buffy's rules. It's like teaching a child that hitting people is wrong by hitting the child.

Faith didn't know Angel was living in LA until Wolfram & Hart hired her. Since it is only 2 hours from Sunnydale, it makes sense Buffy would think Faith wouldn't be anywhere near it. It's like storming out of the house but only going as far as the backyard. In Anne, Buffy was living in LA because it is where she was born & raised and lived for 16 years. It made sense she assumed Faith would return to Boston or at least the East coast. When Faith stole Buffy's body she bought a plane ticket for out of the country.

Buffy did not tell Angel they had to stay out of each other's lives forever. He made the rules when he DUMPED her and left town. In the script for Harsh Light of Day (which took place in early October) she told Willow she slept with Parker because she couldn't stop thinking about Angel. So to have him in late November stalk her in the shadows for three days and talking to all of her friends while not informing her he was there, of course she would say it's not okay. The issue was that she sensed him the whole time without knowing why. She described it as a "torment" to feel his presence but not see or hear him. Even Cordelia, longtime member of the insensitivity brigade, thought it was effed up. And once again in IWRY, Angel made the rules about when they could see each other since Buffy fell asleep thinking she was going to see & make love with him every day and they'd spend their entire lives together only for Angel the very next morning to change things so they're back to separate towns and journeys.
 
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Faith didn't know Angel was living in LA until Wolfram & Hart hired her. Since it is only 2 hours from Sunnydale, it makes sense Buffy would think Faith wouldn't be anywhere near it.
It doesn't matter that Faith doesn't know that Angel lives in L.A.. The fact that Faith was on the lose should be made known to all parties. After all Buffy's excuse for storming in was that she 'thought he was in danger'. If she thought that then she should have let him know about Faith in the first place.

Buffy did not tell Angel they had to stay out of each other's lives forever. He made the rules when he DUMPED her and left town. In the script for Harsh Light of Day (which took place in early October) she told Willow she slept with Parker because she couldn't stop thinking about Angel. So to have him in late November stalk her in the shadows for three days and talking to all of her friends while not informing her he was there, of course she would say it's not okay. The issue was that she sensed him the whole time without knowing why. She described it as a "torment" to feel his presence but not see or hear him. Even Cordelia, longtime member of the insensitivity brigade, thought it was effed up. And once again in IWRY, Angel made the rules about when they could see each other since Buffy fell asleep thinking she was going to see & make love with him every day and they'd spend their entire lives together only for Angel the very next morning to change things so they're back to separate towns and journeys.
Don't really know how to respond to that. It's a bit all over the place and a lot of it has nothing to do with Sanctuary.

Buffy did not tell Angel they had to stay out of each other's lives forever.
'I can't have you in my life while I'm trying to move on.' Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

He made the rules when he DUMPED her and left town.
I don't remember him laying down any rules when he broke up with her and left town, considering no one even knew where he was going. Can you give me a quote from S3 where Angel laid down any rules in regards to post-leaving conduct?

In the script for Harsh Light of Day (which took place in early October) she told Willow she slept with Parker because she couldn't stop thinking about Angel. So to have him in late November stalk her in the shadows for three days and talking to all of her friends while not informing her he was there, of course she would say it's not okay.
What does Parker have to do with anything? What's in the shooting script isn't canon. Only what's on screen is canon. Seems weird to me to use non-canon to condemn Angel for anything. I don't agree with Angel talking to anyone but her but that has nothing to do with Parker because it's about Buffy/Angel.

And once again in IWRY, Angel made the rules about when they could see each other since Buffy fell asleep thinking she was going to see & make love with him every day and they'd spend their entire lives together only for Angel the very next morning to change things so they're back to separate towns and journeys.
That just makes no sense to me. So Buffy made the rules then when she send Angel to hell? When she forced him to drink her? Which means Buffy made the rules first and Angel is just following her rules. So what's the problem?
 
thetopher
thetopher
Good post; Buffy makes mistakes too!
And once again in IWRY, Angel made the rules about when they could see each other since Buffy fell asleep thinking she was going to see & make love with him every day and they'd spend their entire lives together only for Angel the very next morning to change things so they're back to separate towns and journeys.

What would you have him do? When the oracles told him that Buffy would die sooner because he was human can you fault him for begging for her life? He doesn’t know when he leaves her in bed that it will be the last night they spend together. Honestly, once the oracles tell him Buffy will die sooner I want to know what people would have Angel do? He can’t just let that be. This is her life - not just the life of the woman he loves but the life of the Slayer, a warrior for good. He isn’t making the rules here destiny is and he is trying to change destiny in a way that will give Buffy the chance to live.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
I understand his decision. I brought it up because Romantic Soul said it was Buffy's fault that they weren't in each other's lives.
I'm not sure why anyone would see Becoming Part 2 as a Bangel episode. Part 1 I can see more. Then again I tend to think of them as a whole episode that just happen to be divided in two parts.

Pretty much my feel on this. Becoming part 2 has one amazing Bangel moment but the rest is more about Buffy's journey. So I vote IWRY because it is what almost Bangel shippers wants!
 
I know most people here prefer IWRY as the ultimate Bangel episode, I love IWRY but I choose Becoming part 2, the scene before Buffy leaves Sunnydale, it's just an ICONIC scene of Bangel for me.
 
I also like I will remember you. This is by far one of my favorite episodes of them.
 
It goes without saying that I'm gonna pick 'I will remember you' as the ultimate BAngel episode.

When it first aired, at the end of the episode I was damning all those involved to hell for the heart crushing final scene because damn it, I want back my BAngel even knowing they were on different shows.

It's years later and some perspective that I'm very grateful for this episode. Yet again it end in heartbreak for Angel and Buffy but at least it wasn't as soul destroying as Innocence and Surprise.
At the moment in time in IWRY Buffy and Angel got to experience that wonderful afterglow and fulfilment in just being with each other in the way they wanted it to be when they first 'made love' (sorry if that sounds soppy!) but instead had in their memory the horror of what did happen. Watching them so happy and giddy and contented was joyous to see and as a major BAngel fan this is why it's my favourite ATS episode (not that ATS was really about Buffy as a whole).

I like to think that they gave that to the BAngel fans to let us have them being together physically not end up potentially being the end of the world. Of course with them there still had to be consequences for wanting and believing in a happy ending for themselves.

Becoming 2 is my favourite series/season finale along with The Gift. I'd say that Becoming 1&2 are my favourite 2 parters in BVTS if I haven't mention this already. (which I probably have!)
 
Becoming part 2.

I compared the ‘ending’ scenes of both episodes and the acting in becoming part 2 works so much better for me on both Sarah and David’s part. There’s something too frantic and fast paced about Sarah’s crying in IWRY that kind of takes me out of the scene, in comparison Sarah’s acting is phenomenal in Becoming part 2, makes me cry every time.
 
I'm going to go with IWRY as the better Bangel episode. I feel like it perfectly sums up their relationship:
Dramatic and heartbreaking, yes, but there's also the happiness that comes from the two of them just being together. Their relationship always had those little domestic moments sprinkled in, and the episode shows that.

If the question was which of the two episodes was better, I would probably chose 'Becoming', but I feel like 'I Will Remember You' is just more... Bangel. (I hope this makes sense)
 
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