kittenpoker
Raising penguins in Guam
Both episodes are on the surface in your face examples if sexism. Joss isn't always so blatant.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Billy" and "Family"
- Thread starter kittenpoker
- Start date
Robb Stark
King in the North
Yes, there are a few instances where Joss...annoys me in that regard. There's almost always an underlying message to his works, but the way he gets at times is pretty anti-male, and I'm not really sure why. "Billy", "Family", "Beauty and the Beasts" and "Wild at Heart" all contain barely concealed messages that, essentially, all men are assholes, and that does get tiring, and more than a little insulting, to see.
You want to see blatant? Watch Joss' commentary on "Wild at Heart". That's not empowering, it's sexist. To be honest, it's a little disgusting, some of the things he and Jane Espenson say. To quote Xander: "On behalf of my gender, hey!". To me, if those episodes messages had the genders revered, they would have been, rightly, universally slammed.
You want to see blatant? Watch Joss' commentary on "Wild at Heart". That's not empowering, it's sexist. To be honest, it's a little disgusting, some of the things he and Jane Espenson say. To quote Xander: "On behalf of my gender, hey!". To me, if those episodes messages had the genders revered, they would have been, rightly, universally slammed.
K
kittenpoker
I didn't mean to come off as judgy....but I'll def watch that commentary. Thanks!
SinisterPledge
Why am I not surprised Jane Espenson is behind this?.. :P
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
kittenpoker
Raising penguins in Guam
Sure! And I'm not necessarily judging it, more just noticing. Often there's an undercurrent of, lets say - discontent at the patriarical system we live in.... But a few episodes are really "men suck" in your face.... and like, I said, I'm not judging.....
It's just that watching family last night, I found myself really really HATING tara's dad! Much as I absolutely HATE Billy and his "power
And it just made me think about the connection between the two episodes.
Hope that was a little clearer. 🙂
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
I understand your point! 🙂 I don't think Joss point was to say men suck though. 🙂 The problematic behavoir do exist, so I think it was great that he was showing it. Both episodes also has characters that are men who doesn't suck, like Xander. 🙂
Robb Stark
King in the North
But it's the way it's portrayed. Having a villain whose power is to bring out the "beast" (and Joss LOVES that theme) inside every guy IS insulting. To say that every guy has that inside him is sexist. Saying that every guy in the world has it in him to want to dominate and subjugate women is pretty horrible. Just because he has strong male characters like Angel or Xander doesn't really matter. It doesn't affect the message he's sending. I mean, if he's played on a rude female stereotype, how do you think it would have been received?
BuffyElevated
[No message]
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
I didn't see it like he was saying that every man has a beast inside of him. It was a long time ago since I saw the episode though, so I might be forgetting things. But I think it's obvious that Jw doesn't send a message that men suck. He's a feminist and therefore for equality, so why would he do that? In my opinion he just lifted an important issue - domestic violence.
Robb Stark
King in the North
Oh, I have no problem with him handling tough issues, and you're right, I should probably go back and re-watch it too, but I'm thinking in more of a larger sense as well. I don't think he's always in-your-face about it, his views on men, but from time to time they really do come through. In the director's commentary for "Wild at Heart" he out and out says that he believes every guy has a roaring beast inside of him just waiting to break through, and Jane Espenson (who's also on the commentary) said exactly the same thing. I found that really rude.
But don't get me wrong. The vast majority of the time I find BTVS to be a very strong, inspiring and empowering show, regardless of sex. It's just a few select instances that really bother me.
I never really understand this so forgive me if I come across like a total tool here, I'm not really big into the sexism debates or anything but when I watch things I never really assume things about gender. Meaning like, if the controlling bad guy happens to be a guy I don't see it as sexism, 'cause there's plenty of bad or controlling ladies too. I just see it as a villain character, whether it's male or female is irrelevant. For that story there had to be a nasty figure head of the family and I imagine it could quite have easily been a mother if some things had been different. There's only two genders to chose from so it had to be one of them being the baddie and both could come with complaints of sexism. I mean I'm not meaning to say you guys are wrong or anything, I don't look into this enough to really be qualified to argue but just when I'm watching episodes like that I don't really see the gender as a problem, I just don't really think about it like that? If that makes any sense at all 😛
Blaze
Completely agree!
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
Robb Stark
King in the North
Nothing wrong with that at all. Hell, it's probably more enjoyable to watch it that way. I don't think it's just a male or a female being the bad guy. Obviously most stories require an antagonist, and that means a girl or a guy.
Like I said, it's the way it's portrayed, and most of the time, I watch the show, and most shows, exactly like you described. But there are a few instances where I found it pretty glaring.
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
Oh, I didn't know about the commentary! I've never watched those. Sounds strange that they would say that, I agree that it is a sexist statement. I have to take a look now! 🙂
Aimee
Scooby
This is interesting! I had an annoying conversation with a friend who has never watched BTVS before where she said (in summary):
"Joss is anti-feminist. He puts all his female characters through hell and his female characters are only driven by the men in their lives."
I had to suppress my desire to yell "What a pile of rubbish! What have you been reading???" Instead I said that he was proving how strong women are by putting them through hell and that his male characters suffer just as much.
So is Joss anti-feminist? Or does he think all men are swine?
Personally, I think both accusations are a bit unfair. The arguments for Joss being a feminist are way stronger than those against and he has certainly shown more examples of men being selfless and compassionate than he has of the reverse.
"Joss is anti-feminist. He puts all his female characters through hell and his female characters are only driven by the men in their lives."
I had to suppress my desire to yell "What a pile of rubbish! What have you been reading???" Instead I said that he was proving how strong women are by putting them through hell and that his male characters suffer just as much.
So is Joss anti-feminist? Or does he think all men are swine?
Personally, I think both accusations are a bit unfair. The arguments for Joss being a feminist are way stronger than those against and he has certainly shown more examples of men being selfless and compassionate than he has of the reverse.
T
This Year's Girl
[No message]
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
I have seen men like the father in "Family" a lot of times, particularly associated with churches. There was one person in one church (who was also on many church committees, so his viewpoint was endorsed) who had three daughters and said that he took one of his daughters' driver's license away as punishment for something. I told him that that was against the law and he did not own it. He said, "But I own her." Joss is not inventing this character out of his fertile imagination and that wasn't the only instance of this happening in a church (which is why I will never again be a church member). I have met quite a few "Mr. Maclay's" in real life. I have also met the Donnie and Sandy characters who endorse this kind of oppression.
Billy is a much different character with the ability to bring out misogyny magically by a touch. This does not correspond to anyone I know and the magic element makes it impossible in real life, but unlike a few posters here, I believe our veneer of civilization is not that thick and there is a part of the psyche that wants what it wants when it wants it and is not subject to social inhibitions. There are diseases like Tourette's Syndrome which usually manifest as inability to stop swearing (and this is cited in one episode of Angel), but this goes beyond that into speculative abnormal psychology and is purely an figment of the writer's imagination.
Sexism exists and its representation should not be considered a taboo subject because, as with all taboos, once you terminate discussion, you end the possibility of improvement.
Billy is a much different character with the ability to bring out misogyny magically by a touch. This does not correspond to anyone I know and the magic element makes it impossible in real life, but unlike a few posters here, I believe our veneer of civilization is not that thick and there is a part of the psyche that wants what it wants when it wants it and is not subject to social inhibitions. There are diseases like Tourette's Syndrome which usually manifest as inability to stop swearing (and this is cited in one episode of Angel), but this goes beyond that into speculative abnormal psychology and is purely an figment of the writer's imagination.
Sexism exists and its representation should not be considered a taboo subject because, as with all taboos, once you terminate discussion, you end the possibility of improvement.
kittenpoker
Raising penguins in Guam
I think there is a valid debate about whether or not Billy did expose the primordial mysoginy inherent in all males.... or if he put it into them - as Fred says.
On a side note, in regards to Tourette's.... actually, for people who do shout out words (which is rare.... more often it's vocalizations - like cough like sounds - and facial and bodily ticks) the most common words are racial slurs. Which, I think is interesting.
I usually agree with you on stuff, but here I think you're a bit overreacting. Joss and Jane are obviously generalizing, but so what? That shit is done all the time on every show, and about both genders. It happened plenty of times on BtVS and Angel for women too. It's usually dumb, but oh well.
Also, who's to say that Billy's powers would have really worked on every man? That is just something Lilah claimed. It's not like he has tried it on everyone. 😛 As for Wild at Heart, what about it made you think that the episode message was that ''men suck''? Because Oz, one of the, apparently few, decent guys was shown in a bad light?
Robb Stark
King in the North
for the "Wild at Heart" part, to be totally honest I didn't really realize the intent until I watched the commentary. I don't know. Joss is pretty degrading in some of the stuff he says. That Oz, the ultimate nice guy, is the example that all men have a monster inside them. Seems pretty blatant to me. And it isn't ambiguous or really open to interpretation. He straight up says it. Generalizing? Yeah, that's the problem. Normally, it wouldn't bother me on most shows, but when a series tries to establish role model characters, and sets itself as a constant ground for metaphor (which most of the time I agree with) then they should be called to task when they get insulting.
And like I said above, it's not all the time. And sure, both men and women have their stereotypes played on in fun ways (Buffy and Cordy worrying about their hair or whatnot) but rarely is the message that intense or prejudiced. I mean, "Billy" essentially says that every guy (and from what we saw, except Angel I think, it was "every guy"), somewhere deep down, has a misogynist inside him bursting to get out, and only the very best of us (Gunn) can keep it contained. I may be overreacting like you said (it's been known to happen 🙂) but this ticked me off. I mean, how do you think most people would feel if Joss produced an episode where the metaphor was that that all that women really want is a guy to marry? Totally false stereotype, but it's out there.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
In addition to "Billy" and "Family", you could add "Ted" to the episodes where a male control freak attempted to dominate Buffy. The fact that he turned out to be a robot and could be killed legally does not detract from the realism of the story, and Ted does represent a type of person that I have met before. He will do all the thinking for all members of his family and gets violent if opposed in any way, as evidenced by the bodies of four wives in a 1950's style basement suited to a 1950's attitude that has not gone away. Psychopathic dominance and submission is the lifeblood of these people and it is unlikely the wives were ever allowed out of the basement. Four wives in fifty years suggests that they tried to oppose him and were terminated with extreme prejudice.
I don't think Joss should be blamed for exposing what is out there - no part of human nature should be taboo, expecially if it is that common. Ted's comment to Joyce:
"Haven't I always told you what to do?"
should be taken as a useful warning and not an endorsement of psychopathy.
I don't think Joss should be blamed for exposing what is out there - no part of human nature should be taboo, expecially if it is that common. Ted's comment to Joyce:
"Haven't I always told you what to do?"
should be taken as a useful warning and not an endorsement of psychopathy.
I'll agree to disagree on this subject. I feel like in a lot of instance, people overreact a bit to those things. I've heard people say Joss was homophone for killing Tara and stuff like that (apparently some people don't seem to realize Joss' love for killing fan favourites and having 3 gay female characters + Andrew lol on his show).
Now that was a pretty extreme example but I think it's similar to this discussion. I will agree that in some instances Joss paints men not exactly in their brightness color but for the case of family, what was he suppose to show. We know Tara's mom is dead, and the point of the ep is to show that real family is whoever cares about you, not blood (and I'll add that the cousin was equally bad and a female, it wasn't about males!!) Now, some other episode I can understand but family was not about sexism at all!
Now that was a pretty extreme example but I think it's similar to this discussion. I will agree that in some instances Joss paints men not exactly in their brightness color but for the case of family, what was he suppose to show. We know Tara's mom is dead, and the point of the ep is to show that real family is whoever cares about you, not blood (and I'll add that the cousin was equally bad and a female, it wasn't about males!!) Now, some other episode I can understand but family was not about sexism at all!
R
Robb Stark
I was speaking more about "Billy"
With "Family", I'd argue it's more about hating the patriarchy than all men in general. Amy Adams in Family (is her name Cousin Beth? I forget) is just as much of an arse as the rest of the family because she's been taken up by the patriarchal system. That's not sexist as it suggests anybody, man or woman, can be corrupted.
What I have more of a problem with is Joss' message in "Billy", where his touch only applies to men. Regardless of whether Billy brings it out of men or puts the savagery into men, either way this suggests an inherent problem in men. This totally undermines his portrayal of gender neutrality and equality in Buffy, and I don't really get why Joss did this. It'd be more ok, if it applied only to *some* men.
Plus, "Billy" very much sent the message that in order to be a powerful woman you have to be a heartless, tough bitch. Which I don't think it right. Two unhealthy views on gender and very unlike Joss.
Very much agree.
What I have more of a problem with is Joss' message in "Billy", where his touch only applies to men. Regardless of whether Billy brings it out of men or puts the savagery into men, either way this suggests an inherent problem in men. This totally undermines his portrayal of gender neutrality and equality in Buffy, and I don't really get why Joss did this. It'd be more ok, if it applied only to *some* men.
Plus, "Billy" very much sent the message that in order to be a powerful woman you have to be a heartless, tough bitch. Which I don't think it right. Two unhealthy views on gender and very unlike Joss.
Very much agree.
I
itssmiletime
[No message]
Wesley Pryce
Angel Investigations
I think that "Billy" is a great ep. It shows how all men,and all women by the way,have a dark side. It doesn't necessarily have to be misogyny,although that's what they went with in Billy,it can be any number of things that show our veneer as humans to be just that. Most people,men and women, have a lot of evil inside them and its civilization and social strictures that keep most of us from acting out on these dark impulses. I know its a dark and a cynical view but i think a lot of people,myself included,feel that way about humans.