'Billy' and misogyny

[Bite-me]

@Grace, @EarthLogic "Lilah takes it as a point of pride that she refuses to see herself as a victim -- when it comes to W&H she knew what she was signing up for and accepts that. Lilah doesn't do things just because they are right and from what I remember, has always been willing to do whatever it takes to keep her job."

I think there were elements of this they were aiming for, which could have been better explored in a episode all its own. It is a point of contention with Lilah that she is proud of who she is and satisfied with what she has accomplished. The insinuation being that it could have been much worse for her but why? I would like to know what lead her to this path, the what and why behind the pride of sacrifice, what is she sacrificing exactly?

I get this morally ambiguous feeling behind this character much more than say Lindsey, who I think is portrayed more as a ambitious amoral opportunist, what Lilah wants people to think of her as but doesn't fit quite right. There could have been a explicitly feminist/gender message behind it as well if they were wanting to play with that.

What makes some women culpable in oppression of others, what does one do when they have no good choice, etc right up their alley.

 

[thrasherpix]

Whether you think Cordelia was blaming Lilah in the scene or not, I still think this line is problematic. Because the implication is that no strong women could ever find themselves in a cycle of abuse, only weak women worthy of scorn.

The only ones to believe that are those who need to believe they live in a just universe (God, Karma, etc), and explain away why this could never happen to them personally (as it's too frightening to deal with otherwise), and will thus believe it regardless, while the rest probably won't even catch that interpretation (I sure didn't).

Of course when bad things do happen to people who belief in a just cosmos then it's seen as a grave injustice. Everyone deserves what they get save the person who holds that belief, and most are strangely blind to the hypocritical standard.
 
In contrast, those who overcome adversity (including abuse and violence) are generally admired, while those who cry over their life while doing nothing to change it are generally pitied, sometimes to be encouraged to better themselves, or writing them off as a lost cause.

 

[thrasherpix]

I'm more curious what the Senior Partners had in mind. As Mesektet (aka Evil Red Riding Hood) said, "I like trouble, but I hate chaos." Billy was chaos. Having thought about it, I think it was just Billy's family paid to have Billy freed. Technically the Blims don't know Lilah gunned him down. It would've been nice to show a little "behind the scenes" with Lilah (perhaps Mesektet calls her up later, Lilah terrified but hiding it, to find herself being congratulated for her "initiative" and "smiting the right cheek of the one who slapped your cheek" and such since it served Mesektet's own purpose, but warning that Mesektet will exercise her own vengeance on Lilah if she crosses her, and it could set up for later "tips with office furniture" with Lilah being very careful with her initiative in contacting the Senior Partners, but emboldened by this summons and personal congratulations).

I'm curious what happened to Congressman Blim as well. Angel was able to walk into his home without an invite so I'd think he was dead (in which case Lilah has little to worry about), but if dead then why did Billy need the police to take him from the home? Unless there were minders to worry about with instructions to keep him home (but then why didn't Angel run into them?).
 

What makes some women culpable in oppression of others, what does one do when they have no good choice, etc right up their alley.

If She were more symbolically relevant then it would've been females ripping the spinal ridges or whatever out of women, like how women tend to dominate in genital mutilation of girls where that happens (example, a father tried to forbid it but her grandmother carried her to the females to cut her, described herre). And looking at bestselling female authors and their supportive female audience, it's going to take more just getting more women into writing rather than the right person. And I could go on...I think all female judges in Dallas are misogynist as even their male colleagues call them out for their rulings and such (from blaming a 14-year-old for her own rape after an adult rapist confessed, and then even giving the confessed rapist "community service" which included him being a counselor at a rape crisis center, though no crisis center would accept him for what should be obvious reasons so that the judge had to come up with something else) to when a female judge tried to bully a jury in declaring her nephew innocent of rape. That's just one example why I reject the confusion of gender and ideology.

 

[Bite-me]

@thrasherpix, so the last part touches on what I mean about personal culpability, yes we are all capable of doing wrong but the other part is, in the case of somebody from a oppressed group of people, what might make them work for the oppressors, there is of course personal gain but say if there is and often times there is, a systemic mechanism in place that would make them culpable in their own oppression, then it is the perfect structure of oppression, worse of all it offers deniability to the senior partners so to speak, shifting the worth of blame onto the victims. It is incredibly evil and what comes to my mind like the examples you offered is a woman working not just against another woman but against the best interests of all women.

I think the sexism theme they were going for in "Billy" could shift to a broader, yet more specific example in the form Lilah, you know finding the universal in the particular
the "What makes men hate women" demon metaphor was broad, clumsy and on the nose. A exploration of Lilah's character examining how sexism played out in the life of this specific woman could live more comfortably in the subtext, opposed to being so comparatively preachy and on the nose. Having thought about it, something has always told me that this character has children. I noticed this show and others tend to favor this thing where as shorthand to humanize the big bad business man they will give him a wife and kid, which he may or may not care about but this seems wrong to me because I do not believe evil violent men are good or nice to their families.. it can be a fact about them but it rings false as humanizing (well it may work as glamorizing male violence)

The other trope is the women with the big important career who has to choose between it or family, the message being supposedly that she is a horrible bitch because she doesn't have kids but will mellow when she realizes what is important and puts family first, I think it works in reverse, not all mothers are cuddly, a ferocious mother bear works perfectly as raison d'etre for moral ambiguity.

 

[Grace]

I'm curious what happened to Congressman Blim as well. Angel was able to walk into his home without an invite so I'd think he was dead (in which case Lilah has little to worry about), but if dead then why did Billy need the police to take him from the home? Unless there were minders to worry about with instructions to keep him home (but then why didn't Angel run into them?).

I think the lack of invitation was explained by Billy being part demon, not that Congressman Blim was dead. The body Billy reported to the cops was a woman's. And when Angel talked to Billy's cousin, there wasn't any mention of his dad (uncle?) being killed.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

I really love this episode and even if it the metaphor was too on the nose I preferred the fact that they went there at all. Yes it was male writers trying to imagine what violence and male domination made women feel but at least they tried to talk about it. It's not perfect but it is necessary to keep the conversaton going on this topic! As for the all male have agreesive feelings toward women I find it hard to argue about it because I am not a man and honestly have no real idea what they feel. It's impossible for me to imagine what it feels like growing up as male because well I've never been one!

 

[PaulParmar1]

I really love this episode and even if it the metaphor was too on the nose I preferred the fact that they went there at all. Yes it was male writers trying to imagine what violence and male domination made women feel but at least they tried to talk about it. It's not perfect but it is necessary to keep the conversaton going on this topic! As for the all male have agreesive feelings toward women I find it hard to argue about it because I am not a man and honestly have no real idea what they feel. It's impossible for me to imagine what it feels like growing up as male because well I've never been one!

I'm a male growing up and I don't have any aggressive feelings towards women.
And I agree with you!
Great episode & it was at least talked about which was important .
And imo showed off the women of the show as all strong and independent

 

[thetopher]

In the context of the episode Cordelia is being her usual blunt, imperfect self and needling Lilah's pride/self-identity to get her to act/take responsibility for herself. Really I find her role and view here more sympathetic than in say, S2 'Untouched'.

As to what the episode says about men, I find it disturbing in its sweeping misandry. This is one of the AtS episodes I'd happily liked to see overhauled and completely re-written, even if I like some aspects.

 

[thrasherpix]

As to what the episode says about men, I find it disturbing in its sweeping misandry. This is one of the AtS episodes I'd happily liked to see overhauled and completely re-written, even if I like some aspects.

I'd personally have felt better if it was explained that it was Billy's misandry that was mind controlling the others. That is, Billy's specific hatred of women infected the male victim like a type of mind control, but the brain had to somehow justify the blind hatred to itself that they suddenly powerless to resist (as it was Billy's will, but their rationalizations) in terms that they could personally understand, and hence why the mind controlling misogyny took different forms. This could also explain why it didn't effect vampires, because they presumably lack blood flow (and thus the blood can't flow into the brain enough to effect it).

They could make it even more interesting if Billy's blood could cause women to hate themselves, and it could be symbolically powerful. Alternately, it could drive women into paranoid rages against men (as they feel Billy's misogyny and project the perception of it into all the men around her which has a similar effect, since fear creates hate and rage). But Fred would have to be very careful not to touch it directly (as surely she wouldn't since she surely has experience with both chemical analysis as well as basic safety protocols) so that she could still play the role that she did.

I believe I did read (or at least hear of) that the episode was intended to be a statement about how all men carry some innate hateful misogyny, which was much more disturbing to me than the episode itself. That's just not something I will believe about men until I see real evidence of it.

Of course there are men who are downright toxic and obsessive in their hate for women and/or feminism, they seem relatively rare (though all too easy to run into online), just as there are women and/or feminists who are just as obsessively hateful to men (also relatively rare, but all too easy to find online)--I see both toxic types as like wings on the same bird, myself, infected with the same sickness (the sickness that I see as represented by Billy's demon blood). Likewise, I've noticed that some men and women loathe their own gender while placing the other gender on a pedestal, which strikes me as very similar in a way, in addition to seeming to refute that things like misandry and/or misogyny are hardwired. Thankfully, they're relatively rare as well.

Of course the key word is "relatively" with room for many of these people to exist. The use of hard drugs is relatively rare, but will appear very common if you go looking for it. Just because there are bad apples (maybe even several bad apples stinking up the whole cart), universal statements about a gender can't be reasonable made anymore than they can about other demographic details as race. Even acknowledging the role of culture should assume variables and exceptions in individuals, because if culture was static than ever-changing then we'd live in a much more horrible world than we do. Culture itself changes because there are those raised within it who oppose the currently prevailing standards, because we can't be primarily defined by our accidents of birth.

 

[thetopher]

I believe I did read (or at least hear of) that the episode was intended to be a statement about how all men carry some innate hateful misogyny, which was much more disturbing to me than the episode itself. That's just not something I will believe about men until I see real evidence of it.

Yeah, I kinda hate the execution but the 'all men are like that' is so insulting. It's like if somebody said 'oh, the entire point of BB&B is to show that all women have to potential to turn into violent bunny boilers when in love, because let's face it, women are more emotional than men!'
No, this is crap and its a silly generalization, as silly as the one that 'Billy' is implying.
In that episode the violence seems excessive to paint men in the worst possible light. And Wesley- poor Wesley- his 'hatred' manifests itself in a very disturbing way.
I mean, I guess it foreshadows how dark his character will become (his treatment of Justine for example) but the episode still paints all the men as three steps away from being horrible abusers.

I agree with your suggestion about re-tweeked Billy's power, and it would fit with how other demon's influences work; like the Gingerbread demon messing with Joyce or the paranoia demon in the Hyperion.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I don't think it is misandry at all. I think Minear is just really into this idea of men hiding a beast inside themselves. It is like we should be congratulated and pitied for working so hard to keep from being abusive monsters.

 

[thetopher]

It is like we should be congratulated and pitied for working so hard to keep from being abusive monsters.

I'd think that would be a pretty low bar to clear actually, not hard at all for most.

Still think if the show had made a sweeping generalization about how all women are- deep down- toxic in some way then more people would strongly object.
Come to think of it its like how almost all the main male characters exhibit strong jealousy at some point, like its a universal character flaw.