Billy: Something in them or something that was done to them?

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I watched this episode earlier tonight, and now I think back on it Im starting to think it was brought out in them. Maybe from something thats so primordial from like caveman era and stuff that when Billy touches them brings it out. It obviously takes different times to truly show its affect, thats why with Wesley it sort of built up and then exploded. With some men it was pretty much instant. Its so hard to say really but it seems like that that force thats deep inside guys is just magnified by Billy's touch.

It makes sense that Angel isn't affect by it even though he said he lost all anger and hatred like that years ago its still there. I took it that because Angel is also demon technically that anger and hatred is already at the surface but shown in a different way. But then maybe because Angel has a soul it just doesn't do anything to him and maybe on vampires without a soul it makes them 10 times worse.

Gosh this is hard to pin point or come to some kind of logical conclusion. I guess its one of those things where you just have to take it as it comes when watching the episode.

Yeah, I used to think it was something that was done to them, but then when I watched the episode again, I changed my mind. I like your idea with how it would affect a vampire without a soul...scary thought.

 

[Kana]

It's an interesting episode. I just re-watched it (and about three more episodes) and, to be honest, I still don't know what I think. That Billy was part demon and that he had the power to infect people with his supercharged blood, sweat, etc. was made abundantly clear. That being the case, I think that the effect that Billy had on people was the result of something that was done to them -- or, to be more accurate, it was the result of some sort of demon fluid being introduced into the victims' respective systems. The question, then, becomes what did the demon fluid do?

I'm not sure. Did it trigger violent feelings and behaviors already present (yet suppressed) within the victim, or was the fluid transfer more along the lines of a miniature and much diluted vampiric transformation, in which the demonic substance alters the human shell in order to suit its needs?

I think I'm going to go with both. I think it works sort of like a viral infection. A virus is transferred in much the same way. Once inside a host, a virus kills and alters native cells. In many ways, the infected cells are no longer the host's cells, but are viral cells. The symptoms, however, are usually the result of an innate immune response brought about as an attempt to fight off the virus. A virus and its symptoms are foreign and beyond the victim's control, yet a virus does elicit an involuntary and innate response from the victim. I kind of think of Billy's touch as a virus and its effects as an involuntary immune response. No one blames a bronchitis sufferer for coughing, so I don't think we can blame the victims of Billy's touch for their reactions. It is involuntary aggression; however, I think it may also be innate. I think it's the body's reaction to the foreign, demon contaminate.

Of course, the analogy falls apart when you consider that coughing, like other immune responses, helps clear the infection from the body. I'm not sure how beating, verbally abusing, and killing women clears Billy's demon cooties from the system.

I'll have to think this over a bit more carefully. Great topic!

Great contribution. I was confused as well as to how it works. My main argument is that I don't like the idea that men have innate hatred of women. I think that is something Billy transfers and that the victim isn't responsible. However it would affect them in different ways based upon their inherent feelings. I think it's somewhat like vamprism. Not all vampires had homicidal tendencies and few humans are depicted as bloodthirsty in the same way vampires. However how vampires express their 'evil' is based upon the base personality of the human predecessor. What Billy does is transfer misogyny onto his victims and removes their inhibitions and they intepret these feelings in their own way explaining why some go crazy in a matter of moments and some go crazy straight away.

I was confused as well

 

[wehappyfew]

this episode showed up on my tivo last night, after class and wow...what a nice surprise. one of the best episodes of angel.
i'd like to point out two things about this episode before dealing with the topic of the thread:

1) Coredlia-a woman, is the strongest character throughout the episode. motivated by selfish means (she feels guilty) but her selfish means help other people (unselfish). the whole giving & receiving thing. the scene with lilah was priceless as cordy really could have turned into lilah...but of course she crossed paths with angel and that saved her soul. whoops, tangent. cordelia was the strongest...she kept her cool. (and she has a smokin' body)
2) Lilah-a woman, the hero of the episode. the bad guy saves the day. lilah is a feminist. go lilah. i love you and i'm sad you got stabbed.

now on to the boys...
personally, i think it was something inside of them based on:
intuitively when Fred told Wesley that it was "something done to" him I didn't make that link. it just didn't fit.
and what struck me about the episode is that the...C story (?) was Wesley, Fred and Gunn which becomes the Love Triangle of s3 and arguably the show.
In the episode we see Fred, the smart, talkative girl, who isn't being trained to fight like Cordy become the "victim" of someone who thinks she's dressing provocative and not listening :::idiot wes:::. and wes goes overboard...he stalks her he pushes her, he completley loses control. yet she outsmarts him (women have awesome brains).
then you have Gunn who is affected (or effected, sometimes i forget) by Billy's powers and it seems that it's stalled for him, and then when it does take control gunn is able to control it and continue to tell fred to knock him out, even though he begins to scream it.

So...wes & gunn react to it differently. which makes me think that it was something inside of them both.
Maybe it's just an emotional response.
At the beginning of the episode, Wes is repressing his feelings for Fred by not admitting them to her.
While Gunn (who i've seen hints that he's attracted to Fred) plays it cool.

As for Angel...I didn't like his whole speech at the end. I've seen the dude get angry. maybe not at women...but still. That also didn't fit. I'm gonna roll that he wasn't affected because he was a vampire. Vampires don't roll with the primal human crud.

ALSO....i guess i'm not a radical feminist. but the "irony of using a phalloc shaped weapon"....i mean come ON! i've read papers and editorials about that before and it's just too much. people reading too much into society.
and besides the crossbow kind of resembled ovaries to me.

 

[JCC]

I don't think that Joss' message would have been that men are inherently misogynistic and simply fight to keep it under wraps, that's not a Joss Whedon theme. I think that Billy enhances an aimless hatred or frustration that festers in people, possibly more a case of self-loathing than anything, and he twists that hatred to use it for his own agenda. I guess you could say that Billy is Hitler and men are the German people, or Billy is Oswald Mosley and men are the disillusioned British, or any other example you want to cite of a leader using people's anger for his own agenda.

 

[Uncle Rory]

Ok, let's take a quick poll. Gender neutral. Imagine the person of the opposite sex (or a significant other) who has done you the most damage. Imagine the worst moment of that worst possible relationship.

Now, Honestly think back - what were you thinking about at that moment when that HORRIBLE, DECIETFUL, BETRAYING, etc. etc. person told you that he, she or whatever had - slept with your best friend, never loved you, taped over your VHS copies of American Idol or whatever.

Was it "Wow, that's too bad. I hope he or she goes on to have a good life and can live with the decisions he or she has made."

Or was it more like -

Miserable ^%$$^&&**%$ I hope that your *&%$$%&*( get's infested with ebola and that your %&*(%$ falls off and that your #%^#%& gets caught in a pencil sharpener and that you spend an eternity listening to Jonas Brothers and Celine Dion.

If your answer was closer to the second choice then you have your answer. We all have rage in us. We don't need any mystic curse to bring it out. If you don't have any hate in you then how could you possible know love?

FYI - Just because it was a man against woman thing let's not forget that it is FICTION. If there is any message here it is not about men hating women.

Although I am sympathetic to women's problems it doesn't make them any more serious or terrifying as some problems that men have on a day to day basis that are brought about by selfish women. Can't believe this is possible? Come home from wonderland Alice.

Uncle Rory