Boring?

Bored of the Dead said:
As for saying that Spike being '85%' of the funny of 'Angel' well um, can I call that a very lame comment.

Cordelia was pretty much the humour of Angel particularly the first couple of seasons, why aren't you complaining that she was '85%' of the humour. Same with Wesley?
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Duh, BotD... I can't believe you seriously see no difference in 85% of the humour being carried by a core main cast character who was there from episode 1, as compared to by a more or less "ratings gimmick" addition introduced after four seasons did well without him!?!

And you can't really compare that to Wes, who, even though he wasn't there from ep 1, at least got included into the main cast in S1 and was there ever since. Besides, he had been a pretty minor character in Buffy for half a season, while Spike was one of BTVS's main viewer magnets. To bring him over felt cheap and gimmicky, even if he, of course, did the trick he was supposed to do remarkably well (you wouldn't expect otherwise from either the role or the actor, anyway).


Bored of the Dead said:
Angel, the character, was not supposed to be the comic relief, the shows established comic relief had left and in a show as dark as Angel can be, you need humour, you need light so I am thankful that Spike provided it because IF Angel didn't have Spike in season 5 AND we take the official story that CC wasn't going to be in season 5 anyway then we would have had an entirely new character to fill the 'comic' gap and I prefered Spike.
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How about Lorne? The writers gave him way too little to do in S5 anyway.
 
InsaneMystic said:
Duh, BotD... I can't believe you seriously see no difference in 85% of the humour being carried by a core main cast character who was there from episode 1, as compared to by a more or less "ratings gimmick" addition introduced after four seasons did well without him!?!

And you can't really compare that to Wes, who, even though he wasn't there from ep 1, at least got included into the main cast in S1 and was there ever since. Besides, he had been a pretty minor character in Buffy for half a season, while Spike was one of BTVS's main viewer magnets. To bring him over felt cheap and gimmicky, even if he, of course, did the trick he was supposed to do remarkably well (you wouldn't expect otherwise from either the role or the actor, anyway).
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I think you will find I can.

Let us take as fact that Charisma Carpenter left because thats what the story was going to do. Someone would need to fulfil that role (even though Cordy hadn't been the comic relief since mid season 3 - and you could feel that in the show).

Spike, with a hugely developed, but little seen in comparison, relationship with the lead character was perfect for the role. Even if we pretend that Joss was the one who forced this (when in fact it was one of the stipulations by the studio for an extra season), he is the perfect choice for the season as it stands.

Spike and Angel are the same but different.
They were sired by someone they had a relationship with
They let themselves be sired
The both killed parents
They both loved a particular Slayer
They both averted apocalypses
They both had a soul.

The same but different is how they tackled these things.

The reason Spike was perfect for this season was because he antithesis of everything Angel had to do in this season.
Spike was a badass but he would do the right thing.

The fact that he was also the humour in the show, well, Spike has always been funny, and the fact we didn't have funny Cordelia and even that worked against Angel - not really the comic relief.

Angel has his moments BUT he wasn't the funny one - he was the broody one.

InsaneMystic said:
How about Lorne? The writers gave him way too little to do in S5 anyway.
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Lorne was a wasted opportunity in season 5 granted BUT he shouldn't have been the comic relief. His small arc was great, showing how doing the right thing, while just and good, was actually having a detrimental effect on him.
 
While I don't think S5 of Angel is the best season (I'd reserve that honor for S2 or 3) I did enjoy it. I didn't like that they were pressured by the network to do away with an arc heavy storyline for more standalones cause I really enjoy the arcs, but I really did like every episode with the exception of Cautionary Tale... and Unleashed. The Spike thing though, despite the things he did bring to S5, I still much rather have had Cordy still there over him, if it had to be one or the other.
 
I completely agree with InsaneMystic about Spike being nothing more than a gimmick. Why was it necessary to even replace Cordelia? Why couldn't they have just continued on with the already existing cast? All were capable of being humorous and causing drama. I know it was a stab at a ratings grab because Spike was such a popular character, but what I hated more than anything was how much his being on AtS just completely cheapened his death in Chosen...his "heroic" death should have made even a staunch Spike hater like me like him a little more. The fact they killed him just to bring him back to life on another show made me hate him even more...
 
Season 5 would not have made sense if Cordelia had stayed and quite frankly I love the idea of Angel working in Wolfram and Hart.

She was his his guidance, his go to gal and without her he was clearly lost.

I don't know what actually happened between Joss/Charisma/rest of gang and neither does anyone one else, however if she had any ill will towards any of them, particularly Joss then she wouldn't have come back for the 100th, I mean its not like they believed the show was ending that season.

Now, lets not forget that Charisma had just had a baby. Its not totally unreasonable to think that she was written out for that reason - so with that, then the characters couldn't stay the same.

The ONLY way Spikes resurrection cheapens his death is if you let it. I find his death in Chosen and his moment with Buffy one of the most beautiful moments in the show, in the season 5 episode of Angel where he plans to go find Buffy but decides he can't that adds to his character in my opinion.

With Cordelia gone, we needed someone who could fill her rather splendid shoes and Harmony, as much as I love her, really couldn't.

They needed a heavy weight and someone hilarious and they got Spike.

Yes thats down to Network intervention but I honestly don't care why he is there, I am truly glad.

Season 5 has some of my absolute favourite episodes in it and the lack of an arc is perfect as a comment on Angels lack of direction.
 
BotD, I definitely see your points there, still I uphold my assessment.

Of course Spike fit in, and of course he was a great addition to the cast. My complaint is that he was too good an addition, pretty much taking over the show. That is what I meant with my "the show is called 'Angel', not 'Spike'" comment. I'm certainly aware that Angel as character could never be the "humorous one"; that he is so in funny in "his moments", as you call them (e.g., that hilarious party dance, or the transformation in "Smile Time") is because they are just that: moments contrasting his general depressive brooding.

My problem with Spike in S5 is, it would have been dead boring without him. That's what I mean with his "taking over", and that's never a good thing for a new character to do. Heck, 2/3 of the people on this board complain that after Connor showed up through the portal, the general plot turned into "let's react to what Connor does". I see the same pattern here with Spike, and it bugs me.

And as for the studio execs forcing Joss into "scrap the arc, and add Spike" to get a 5th season done... well, there's a word for that: Selling out. Don't get me wrong, it's still much better than having no S5 at all, especially as there was great humour in the season. It's just that selling out is such a non-Joss concept that it leaves a bad aftertaste. A sizeable part of the appeal of Joss' work has always been his defiance of the wishes of the mainstream.
 
The first thing I'd say is that in my opinion, a 'bad' season of Ats and Btvs, is still better than a 'good' season of some other shows.

As for Spike, I'd agree that it was transparent that he was there to bring the Btvs crowd which indeed angered a lot of 'Ats purists' however I loved him there and this is coming from an Angel fan.

I think Spike's biggest development to date was in Damage or Shells were he became a lot more internallt motivated rather doing what he thinks his mother wanted, or Dru wanted or what Buffy wanted. Finally we get an insight into what Spike wanted as soulled vampire: huge character arc.

I agree with Botd in terms of Cordy, Angel never would have gone through his nihilism if she were around and I thought philosophically and in terms of characterisation, thematically Angel development really worked.
 
I
InsaneMystic
I agree that when Joss sucks, he's still better than 90% of other TV writers on a good day, lol!
No offence guys but I actually hate the 'worst episodes better than 90% of other stuff' because I simply disagree and if you truly thught about it you would too.

Think about the episodes you consider bad then put them against other TV Shows you like.

eg - Doctor Who, Greys Anatomy, Stargate, Pushing Daisies, Smallville, Supernatural.

Thats just TV shows I like.

Add your reality TV (some people must like it!!) soap operas and what not.
 
L
Lindsey McDonald
Note: "Joss" and "other writers". I agree with what you're saying, but that's not quite the point IM made.
I didn't care much for season five because it became the Spike and Angel show, especially at the beginning. And I too missed seeing CC. But it is still a lot better than all of the new cult shows on tv today!:: vampire
 
Bored of the Dead said:
Season 5 would not have made sense if Cordelia had stayed and quite frankly I love the idea of Angel working in Wolfram and Hart.

She was his his guidance, his go to gal and without her he was clearly lost.
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So why couldn't they have had the gang NOT take over Wolfram & Hart and keep Cordelia? Bad trade, if you ask me...
 
PurplePoof said:
So why couldn't they have had the gang NOT take over Wolfram & Hart and keep Cordelia? Bad trade, if you ask me...
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We actually needed to see Angel have the conflict of this season.

Fight the good fight and all that malarky BUT we needed to see what he would do if he was in the others shoes.

I hate Lindsey but would I do what he did?
Could I do what he did?

Watch his family deal with what they dealt with and not take the opportunity.

Its easy to paint everyone at W&H as evil because we know a) it represents evil and b) its Lawyers - yucky lawyers, but why would humans, who probably had a reasonable upbringings turn to this way of life, turn a blind eye.

We needed to have a different view of W&H.

Plus, we don't know that the price in reality (we know it was in the show) was Cordelia. Maybe she did want to leave to spend time with her child.
 
You're probably right. But I suppose the outlook is different for those of us who only watched for Cordelia and never would've got into the show in any capacity without her. Oh wait, that's probably just me...

Carry on...
 
PurplePoof said:
You're probably right. But I suppose the outlook is different for those of us who only watched for Cordelia and never would've got into the show in any capacity without her. Oh wait, that's probably just me...

Carry on...
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Yeah, don't get me wrong but I adored Cordelia, her character was brilliant BUT I don't mind losing her in the last season because we have had her as a permanent member since season 1 Buffy and as far as I know they didn't think season 5 was going to be the last season.

Now, I would be pissed IF Joss and co had known it was to be the last season AND they got rid of her (instead of leaving to be with child!)
 
Ok i just finished season 5 for the first time ever, and i have to say, there are things i like about it. A little more humor in angel's character, and a much brighter set, which is so different because, you know, vampires... but it was refreshing. I immensely enjoyed Hamilton, seeing Lindsey return, some amazing acting from Amy (i really understand what people have said on these boards about her diversity esp between Fred and Illyria, it was amazing to see her back and forth on that), the dynamic between spike and Angel (though i do think the resurrection REALLY took away the intensity and emotion of his sacrifice in buffy)...

The last few episodes seemed rushed, and yes, i do realize it was cancelled so they probably have to wrap things up much quicker than they were planning. I was expecting a bit more of an epic feel for the last episode, it was a bit all over the place for me but still awesome.

And Fred's death might be one of the most heartbreaking moments in the buffy/angelverse. I was, or at least thought i was, indifferent to Fred for most of the show but damn that hit me hard.
 
LittleMissLikesToFight said:
The last few episodes seemed rushed, and yes, i do realize it was cancelled so they probably have to wrap things up much quicker than they were planning. I was expecting a bit more of an epic feel for the last episode, it was a bit all over the place for me but still awesome.
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Actually I think I read either here or on CoA when it was still a discussion board that the last few episodes weren't touched much and the ending is pretty much as it was meant to be.

Joss DID decide to Kill Wesley off when he was told that the show wouldn't be renewed but everything else is the same.
 
LittleMissLikesToFight said:
And Fred's death might be one of the most heartbreaking moments in the buffy/angelverse. I was, or at least thought i was, indifferent to Fred for most of the show but damn that hit me hard.
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See, this is what's strange for me. I found Fred's death incredibly drawn out and very dull, and not even remotely moving. When she finally died I was like "THANK YOU!" Then again, I hated Fred and thought she was a waste of space who was only brought on the show because they needed more women if they were gonna have romances and love triangles.

I LAUGHED when Wesley died. I thought it was just absolutely ridiculous.
 
I agree. It was just too rushed, and more time and attention was certainly owed to the death of a major character who'd been there almost from the beginning. That's part of why I found his death so humorous...it was so redundant. It's like "Ok, Wes is dead...point being?"
 
I was so pissed with how they killed Wesley. He is one of my favorite characters in the show. They spent so much longer on Cordelias "death" and Freds death then on Wes'! And they only spent one episode on Fred! It was all way too rushed and too many people died. And Gunn? What the hell happened to him? I assume he died but...I hated the end. Hated it. I wish there had been a season 6...and what the hell was up with Lorne killing Lindsey? Seriously messed up.

I would have been happy if only Angel, Wes and Illyria had survived. Spike should never have been resurrected...he went down fighting, saved the world...it should have ended there. He's a more important character, in my opinion, to just be Angel's foil and the comic relief bit. He was just wandering with no purpose thoughout the season.

It irritates me that only the super-human/demons survived at the end. No hope for humans, I guess 🙂 I guess that's the moral of the show.
 
Airam
Airam
Spent more time on Cordelia's death?! They spent zero time on Cordelia's death and they couldn't spend more time on Wes' because 5 minutes after he died the series was over.
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