Brainbuster from This Year's Girl

[nerd4hire]

OK here's a brainbuster for those of you who still believe the Slayer Line has relevance.

First of all, we all know how it works right? Buffy begat Kendra and Kendra begat Faith...

Fine--let's go to This Year's Girl. Buffy and Faith swap bodies. Here's where it gets confusing...

Which body has to die before another slayer is called?

 

[Allycat]

If the slayer's power is locked onto her body, Buffy in Faith's body has to die.
If the slayer's power is locked onto her spirit, Faith in Buffy's body has to die.

At least, that's what I think.

 

[nerd4hire]

So which is it then, and what if the slayer power is locked into a combination of body, mind and spirit? Does that mean they both have to die before the slayer power will be passed on? If so, wouldn't that mean there were now 2 chosen ones?

 

[SpikedBuffy]

that's very confusing!!!!

I don't think it's the body... it's the soul, essence of the slayer. SO I believe Buffy in Faith's body would call another slayer

But then, this question would be answered different ways depending on who you thought the real slayer was, considering there are two.

 

[nerd4hire]

Well...assuming the slayer line is still being passed on in Season 4, the way it had been to that point, the line would be passing through Faith.

The question is who is Faith? Is she her body, mind, spirit, or a combination thereof?

 

[callingpiper]

buffys body would have to die cus faith is the real slayer

 

[nerd4hire]

Finally... We got this far, now we can move on to the interesting part.

First of all we have to ask ourselves what we know concerning the the mechanics of the slayer myth, based on explanations we've received from the Buffyverse.

We know the slayer line transfers to the next in line at the point the body dies, and the essence of the slayer leaves it. At the time of This Year's Girl, the Slayer line is passing through Faith.

The Buffyverse seems to tell us the essence of the slayer is made up of 2 parts; the mind and the soul.

The mind would be the memory and knowledge of a particular individual. It would also be the manner in which that data is interacted upon to create a particular personality. The mind can act independently of the soul. In the Buffyverse a vampire is mind and body, but no soul.

By the rules of the Buffyverse a soul is what interacts with the mind to give it a conscience. It can be separated from the mind and the body.

We know the mind of Faith transfers into the body of Buffy in This Years Girl. We see evidence of it. We see no conclusive evidence the soul has left as well.

You may be saying "Yes we do. At the end of Who Are You, Faith's mind shows evidence of a confrontation with conscience. Her experiences in the body of Buffy are forcing her to feel guilt".

The opposing side of that arguement could point out the possibility the soul of Buffy remained in her original body. It was the interaction of Buffy's enlightened soul with Faith's mind that rebooted the knowledge of right and wrong. When Faith's mind is transfered back into her own body, the corrupted soul of Faith must now deal with the knowledge instilled into it by the soul of Buffy. That's what messed her up.

So now we have the possibility of a mind in one body and a soul in the other. We know when a slayer dies both the mind and the soul leave. They both can be recalled, as was done in the Bargaining 1 and 2. Both mind and soul seem to be necessary to create the slayer's essence.

So if it's possible to have the essence split in two and residing in both bodies, it's also possible it may be nessecary to have both bodies die before the slayer line can be passed on.

Does this mean there are now TWO CHOSEN ONES, because if that's true, how important was that whole "Chosen one thing". Does it have any influence on who The Slayer was, or was it just a clever little plot gimmick designed to give the series a killer promo." There can be only one ".

 

[Allycat]

The Buffyverse seems to tell us the essence of the slayer is made up of 2 parts; the mind and the soul.

And where did you get that knowlegdge?

Even if we assume this is true the rest of your theory is just a bunch of very impressive talk about nothing in particular, that is set up to seems so complicated that it has to be true.

But let's get in detail.

It was the interaction of Buffy's enlightened soul with Faith's mind that rebooted the knowledge of right and wrong.

If so, Buffy's mind should have been poisoned by Faith's soul, but I think we can all see this didn't happen.

And may I know what your exact definition of mind and soul are, they're pretty vague terms. What I understand is from your text is, Soul is personality and Mind is memory.

So in this years girl, the souls were switched. Can we conclude from this that Faith (in Buffy's body) didn't have her own memory, she didn't know what she had been thinking in season 3, why she had done what she had done, so did she also have no memory of her childhood but instead she knew everything about Buffy's life. And when they were transferred back, did they have no memory left of their trip outside their body? But then maybe she did remember what Faith did with her body? .... Strange, they never told us that!

 

[nerd4hire]

Sorry to hear you found my little theory complicated, Alley. Not to worry I think I can clarify it.

You ask me what my definition of mind and soul is. I have to answer it doesn't matter. I can only use explanations found in the Buffyverse, because that's what we're talking about.

You ask me how I know there is a difference between mind and soul in the Buffyverse, and if so how do I know what it is. Simple--they tell us.

Personally I thought I explained that clearly when I said

The mind can act independently of the soul. In the Buffyverse a vampire is mind and body, but no soul.

You seem to suggest more detail is required. No problem let's get into it.

Let's consider Angel and Angelus; two distinct personalities, both sharing the same body, knowledge and memories of experiences. What separates the two and makes them each a distinct personality? Angel has a soul. In the Buffyverse a soul is a noticeable physical entity. In the Angel 4 episode Opheus we see the soul glowing in the Muo-Ping (the jar). When willow breaks the jar, we see the soul physically escape. I don't know how much more proof you would need to convince you the soul exists as a separate entity in the Buffyverse.

So the soul exists, but what is it? What does Buffy mean when she says of Spike, "He's different. He has a soul now."? She means he has a conscience; a knowledge of right and wrong with an inborn preference to the latter, and guilt when that preference is ignored. Guilt is what forces Angel into the Alleys to live off the blood of rats, after he feeds from the dead soda-jerk in Orpheus. He feels guilty because he believes he did wrong. Angelus who tells us he experienced the exact same event has no guilt concerning it. Why not? He doesn't have a soul and therefore no conscience. In the Buffyverse the only thing we know about the nature of a soul is it is connected to conscience.

So how can we postulate the separate entity of a mind based on what the Buffyverse tells us? When Buffy comes back from the dead in Season 6, she comes back with all the knowledge she acquired in her life. She interacts with this knowledge in a manner that is distinctly Buffy. This knowledge and behaviour has existence in the Buffyverse. It requires a name. The Buffyverse does not choose to give it one, but if I choose to call it "the mind", I don't think it's too much of a stretch. I think I'm still playing within the rules. I've only given a name to something that exists within the Buffyverse.

Angel and Angelus share the same memories, but they interact upon them differently. They have two separate minds, this is why Angelus refers to Angel as "him", and not "me". They have different "minds".

At this point I'm going to suggest to you it's shown quite clearly the mind and the soul exist in the Buffyverse as separate entities. So let's get back to what we we're really talking about: This Year's Girl.

You tell me I say

It was the interaction of Buffy's enlightened soul with Faith's mind that rebooted the knowledge of right and wrong.

Actually I don't. I only say it's possible to make an arguement for that theory.

You're arguement against that theory is

If so, Buffy's mind should have been poisoned by Faith's soul

Why? Buffy's mind is stronger than Faith's. It has met and defeated the urge to evil before in When She Was Bad. Goodness is engrained in the mind of Buffy.

So in this years girl, the souls were switched.

No. Based on what the writer's give us, we can only conclude the mind's were switched. The soul's may also have been, but we are given no evidence to conclusively prove it.

Can we conclude from this that Faith (in Buffy's body) didn't have her own memory, she didn't know what she had been thinking in season 3, why she had done what she had done

Huh? Where did you get that idea? Faith remembers the mayor? The only Scooby she doesn't remember is Anya. She'd never met her. I don't understand what you're saying.

Strange, they never told us that!

Never told us what? I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I don't know. Maybe it's too complicated for me. Try to explain it again more clearly.

 

[Allycat]

Let's summarise. And entity exist of three or four different parts.

*Body, the physical appearance of the entity.
*Memory, everything the entity has seen or done.
*Mind, the personality of the entity.

and in some cases

*Soul, the sense of right and wrong.

QUESTIONS

What was exchanged? Memory, Mind, Soul, Memory and Mind, Memory and Soul, Mind and Soul or Memory, Mind and Soul?

The Buffyverse seems to tell us the essence of the slayer is made up of 2 parts; the mind and the soul.

It does? If so, give me the text that says that, cause I can't remember anything like that.

When a vampire is sired, his soul is removed, his body is strengthed and he gets a new mind?

When a vampire is soulled, his soul is restored and his mind is restored?

What about Spike, even before he regained his soul, he seemed to have a sense of right and wrong, didn't he?

Did Spike's personality (mind) change much after he got his soul back?

Howcome, BS2 Angelus is totally different from AS5 Angel, while BS2 Spike is so similar to AS5 Spike?

Is everyone's soul the same?

 

[Lee]

You people think too much, and Im jealous! lol1
I think that Faith (in Buffy's body) would've had to die, mainly becuase her essence of the Slayer would lye in her, no matter where she was, or who she was.
But thats just my opinion.

 

[nerd4hire]

When a vampire is sired, his soul is removed, his body is strengthed and he gets a new mind?

So you agree with me then. The mind exists in BTVS. It might be different but it exists.

I don't see anything that disproves the conclusion; When diffent parts of the slayer essence (body, mind, or soul) are mismatched between the two slayers, it creates a reality where two chosen ones exist, because now the slayer line must pass through both of them.

Fine let's move on. Let's consider Male Slayer's proposal where the total essence of Faith moves from Faith to Buffy. Let's say the essence includes both the mind and the soul.

In this model the slayer line passes from Faith to the Buffy-body through the essence of Faith. We theorize the slayer line passes on to the next potential in line when the Buffy-body dies.

When the Buffy-body dies the Faith-essence is released and a new slayer is triggered.

If it only takes a release of the essence to create a new slayer, why wasn't one created when the Faith-essence left the Faith body?

You might say it's possible a new slayer was created. We just don't know about it yet. If you said that I would say it's also possible a new slayer was created each time Buffy died. We just don't know about it. In that model we would now have 6 chosen ones. 2 from the transfer, the two original, and 2 from the 2 deaths of Buffy after her first death triggered Kendra.

OK, so now you say, "No. The body has to physically die before the essence can be passed on". If you say that it implies the physical body is part of the equation. In other words the body is part of the essence necessary to call a new slayer. If this is true you again have 2 chosen ones sharing different parts of the slayer essence. It would now be Faith's body that would have to die before the Faith essence in Buffy could trigger a new slayer.

Are you beginning to see why I titled this thread "Brainbuster"?

 

[Allycat]

So you agree with me then.

No, not untill you answers to my questions I still had about the theory.

If it only takes a release of the essence to create a new slayer, why wasn't one created when the Faith-essence left the Faith body?

You're assuming too much, where does it say the essence leave the body, if the body gets attached to a different mind? It doesn't.

OK, so now you say, "No. The body has to physically die before the essence can be passed on". If you say that it implies the physical body is part of the equation.

Explain to me why the body is only part of the equation? Let's say the essence is attached to the body and only the body, it can only leave the body IF and only IF, the body is unable to hold it, presummably, that is when it dies, but I don't see why having someone else inhabiting the body results in the body being unable to hold the essence.

Please answer my question from this and my previous post this time.

 

[nerd4hire]

Originally posted by Allycat

Please answer my question from this and my previous post this time. [/B]

Sorry Ally. I didn't mean to appear rude by ignoring you.

The problem is you're questions were niggles. They had nothing to do with the main point.

When diffent parts of the slayer essence (body, mind, or soul) are mismatched between the two slayers, it creates a reality where two chosen ones exist, because now the slayer line must pass through both of them.

I assumed it had been proven to your satisfaction and moved on.

I'll tell you what...you seem to like things in black and white, so I'll tell you specifically what this thread is about.

Once Faith and Buffy switch bodies it creates a situation, where no matter which way you move an arguement can be made for the possibility there can be more than one chosen one

There is one final section of the equation that has yet to be brought up. One possiblility in which the exit of the essence of Faith might not trigger multiple slayers.

Once this is presented and addressed I promise I will come back and niggle away with you on your queries. It's fun. I like to do it too. It's just in the way of the main question right now.

 

[Allycat]

Maybe it is, but you built up a whole theory to what is the answer to the main issue. And I get the point of the theory, but there are some minor details that aren't quite clear. And if I can prove them wrong. Well, I take it you know what happens if you take away all the bottom bricks in a house!

 

[nerd4hire]

Oh hang on a sec. I just reread your post. There's a section of it that stays on topic. I'll address it.

Explain to me why the body is only part of the equation? Let's say the essence is attached to the body and only the body, it can only leave the body IF and only IF, the body is unable to hold it, presummably, that is when it dies, but I don't see why having someone else inhabiting the body results in the body being unable to hold the essence.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The body is "unable to hold it". This is why the essence of Faith transfers to the body of Buffy. Are you saying the essence transfers to Buffy, but remains connected to the body of Faith? No problem. That's what I'm saying too. Two slayers must now die before the line can be passed on. There are two chosen ones.

BTW that's a cute little analogy about the house and the foundation and such. I've always found the best way to debate an analogy is by countering with another. It makes both of them moot. Try this one on; You can't build a house on the foundation of a mountain of leaves.

 

[Allycat]

Hell no!

Like I said in my first post, depending on what the essence of a slayer is connected to and depending on what parts transferred where, you need to kill either Buffy or Faith or both.

But so far, I have not been able to make up my mind about either of them.

 

[nerd4hire]

Well the second model, is the one The Male Slayer provided, where the totalmental and spiritual essence of Faith is transfered to Buffy's body.

 

[Jules]

OK, here's my little theory. I don't think the mind and soul were ever split. It's a valid arguement that it was Buffy's soul that gave Faith's mind the ability to feel her gulity, but I don't think that would be enough to keep her from reverting back to her evil ways once her own soul was back in her body. In theory she blocked out the guilt in the past so technically she can do it again.

I think the main reason for Faith's change was her atmosphere and the people around her. For the first time in her life she was accepted and praised for what she was capable of. And that was what trigered her guilt.

I know in the Buffyverse, the mind can continue without the soul, but if you start mixing Buffy's mind with Faith's soul and vise versa, I think you'd end up with 2 completely different people. You wouldn't have Buffy and Faith, they' have completely different personalities. Faith in Buffy's body, with Buffy's mind and Faith's soul, would probably be a more calculated form of evil.

If you go with that theory Buffy's body would have to die with Faith in it for the next slayer to be called.

 

[elmo]

I get that, Jules! Hey everyone, I'm with Jules on this one! Buffy's body has to die for the next slayer to come cos Faith's mind and spirit are both in there with her!