Britishness: the American-cliché like thread.

[Ms.Trick]

In English class, we are learning a few things about britishness.
The teacher talked to us about the British flegm, the humour, and the classes.

British flegm: English people don't like when you ask things. If you ask questions, you are considered to be a nosey Parker. There is a strict "everyone is own business" policy. He added that the weather is a main subject of conversation. You have to talk about the weather to see if the person is interested in talking to you. That sounded sooo stereotypical.

Humour: English people don't like people who are earnest. The best is to be serious, but not too much, so you must you irony if you don't to be considered as earnest. Like if you a have a brain surgery degree, you are earnest if you said but just enough serious if you say "I started with something too difficult, so I took brain surgery instead". I love that kind of humour but does it really change the way people see you?

The system of classes: Very, very important in England. There are three classes: upper, middle, lower. No matter what you achieve, how rich you become, you just can change class, you'll always be in the same. If you do try to change, you are a social climber and thus despised. The classes are based on the level of langage (prononciation and use of words). Classes can cohabit without a problem or adversity. A very rich guy can be of lower class and a poor person can be in upper class, it's just a matter of langage.

I'm a huge UK lover but I didn't really like all the things the teacher said, mostly because in my opinion, even if there are typical behaviour and culture to every country, everybody doesn't act the exact same way. The way he said that, it just sounded like all English people were the same, which is quite insulting I think, it reduces the notion of individuality, like there were not "different English people" but "THE English people" As I have the chance to be on a multicultural board 🙂heart🙂, I'm asking you, my dear British:

1. What do you think about what my teacher said? How do you act in the same/different ways that what he said?
2. Do you consider yourself to be "British" according to those criterias?
3. What is the point of classes if it doesn't change interaction or social status and it's just a langage status?
4. Is the class awareness really that...aware in the UK?

 

[THA]

They're all inaccurate generalizations and stereotypes, or just plain wrong.

Questions aren't seen as a bad thing, although people do tend to keep things like religious beliefs to themselves. Humour varies from person to person as far as I can tell, there's no particular type that everyone likes or dislikes. There isn't really a class 'system' as such, just richer people or poorer people.

So yeah, we're not all the same, and all of that is misleading, at best.

 

[Flannen]

Ha, this made me laugh a lot. I have to respond, so...

What do you think about what my teacher said? How do you act in the same/different ways that what he said?

This British flegm thing? Never heard of it. I have never known of a British stereotype where we don't like to be asked questions. Kind of staggered as to where that came from, actually. Personally, I love to be asked questions because I love to discus things! The weather thing made me chuckle simply because people always say when you don't have anything to say to somebody, you talk about the weather. So the only link I can see here is that if somebody does bring up the weather with you, they don't have anything else to say to you, lol. But whether or not this is a strictly British thing, I can't say.

As for humor, I would say that irony and sarcasm is a huge part of British comedy but not necessarily something that extends beyond entertainment. The example you've given is quite typical but I don't personally see this as coming out of wishing to be earnest or whatever. I would certainly not look at someone differently because they were earnest. There's a huge difference between being earnest and being arrogant which may be what this means?

Do you consider yourself to be "British" according to those criterias?

Um, no. I guess not, lol. But as I think I've made clear, I don't consider any of these things to be typically British. Typical of some people everywhere, sure, but Britain specifically? Nah.

What is the point of classes if it doesn't change interaction or social status and it's just a langage status?

There isn't one, quite simply. But again, I don't think this is something specific to Britain, it's something about people in general. Saying that, I think class does still have more reverence than language.

Is the class awareness really that...aware in the UK?

What you're teacher has described would be true of like Victorian Britain, absolutely. But I would argue with vehemence that it is not the same today. Is it still an issue? Yes, but not as above. I don't think the disgust towards social climbers is a part of British society. In fact, I'd say it could well the opposite. 'We' like to see stories of people who have made something of themselves and are 'self made men', I don't think that stigma still exists.

Saying that, language does still hold some reverence. Accent, in particular. I've seen evidence of this myself fairly recently and it got me very angry, especially as I would probably be considered to be of the 'lower classes' due to the way I speak. While I say it still exists, its more superficial and despite what people may say about it, I don't think it runs as deep as it used to.

Where class is still very much apparent is in things like politics. Most, if not all, of our politicians come from rich families, went to the best private schools and on to the best universities. It appears to be incredibly difficult for people from the lower classes to enter in politics, so here, yes class issues still ring true.

Class is still an issue in the sense that we have some very affluent areas and some very deprived areas and this means that class divides continue to exist, just not so prominently as they used to. I could say more, but it'd just be a ramble at the moment 😉

What your teacher has to say about Britain, I think are kind of age-old stereotypes but I don't think they are quite as true as they used to be.

 

[jr243]

Lol this thread made me laugh

well to answer ur questions i dont agree with what ur teacher said, except for the class thing but they may be specific to certain areas not the country. i go to a grammar school so u get the kids like me who are poor but smart and then u get the kids who are super rich, im talking swimming pools plural, who went to private schooled and were tutored their whole life and had every oppurtunity presented on a gold platter to get into good schools. not that im jealous or anything. tho it doesnt really affect our social interactions - its not until u actually get invited to someones house until u realise theyre one of the rich ones

tho i guess im not british according to those criteria i am sitting here with a cup of tea in my clothes from camden market having to watch the new himym online 😛

 

[Ianigsy]

1. What do you think about what my teacher said? How do you act in the same/different ways that what he said?

-The word is actually "phlegm" (that's our language for you!) but I think there are two parts to it. Firstly, I think we as a nation do find it difficult to start conversations, particularly with strangers, and there's an unwritten rule that you don't start talking about divisive subjects like religion, politics, race and so on until you really know somebody. The other part of it is that our unpredictable weather has such an effect on everybody's life that it's a way into talking about other things- you find out about what people like through what they could or couldn't do at the weekend.

I'm not sure about the earnestness thing, but I would say that a couple of times my Polish colleague Marta has come into work angry about something, and she'll go on and on and sound really over the top because it sounds wrong to us to take things that seriously.

2. Do you consider yourself to be "British" according to those criterias?

I don't think so but I think it could come across that way.

3. What is the point of classes if it doesn't change interaction or social status and it's just a langage status?

Excuse me while I reach for my sociology textbook!

I think the class system as we had it about 100 years ago gave our society a stability that other countries didn't have. We haven't had a revolution since 1649 so we've never really had that moment where we decided what our country was for and where it was going. We just chugged along sedately and enjoyed the view.

As far as language goes, it's possibly more a thing in London and the south but one of the wonderful things about English is the variety of regional accents and dialects. I've lived in Yorkshire nearly 15 years but people at work still come out with new words and phrases. And your accent doesn't determine your future as much as it used to do- Lord Alan Sugar is an example of somebody who has been very successful in business but never lost his Cockney accent, although perhaps that's extreme.

4. Is the class awareness really that...aware in the UK?

I think it's settling more into a general white-collar and blue-collar thing. You have perhaps 5% upper class and super-rich, 10% unemployable at the very bottom, perhaps another 15-20% working class who don't aspire to anything else, and a very broad middle class. I work for a bank, and a lot of the managers started out as cashiers in branches so it's quite egalitarian that way- they don't all go off and play golf at the weekend.

Another area where it's perhaps more noticeable is sport. Football (soccer) and rugby league are working class sports; rugby union, tennis and cricket are middle class sports (except in Yorkshire, where it's the popular summer sport). Because of that, it can be difficult for somebody from a poorer background to have the opportunity to try a lot of different sports.

 

[Ms.Trick]

They're all inaccurate generalizations and stereotypes, or just plain wrong.

Questions aren't seen as a bad thing, although people do tend to keep things like religious beliefs to themselves. Humour varies from person to person as far as I can tell, there's no particular type that everyone likes or dislikes. There isn't really a class 'system' as such, just richer people or poorer people.

So yeah, we're not all the same, and all of that is misleading, at best.

Yeah, for religion it's the same here, people don't just go to other and say "By the way, i'm an atheist!" and we hardly ever speak about it. Just had some occurences where we talked about religion and that was akward...and I seriously doubted conversations could be that discrete!

This British flegm thing? Never heard of it. I have never known of a British stereotype where we don't like to be asked questions. Kind of staggered as to where that came from, actually. Personally, I love to be asked questions because I love to discus things! The weather thing made me chuckle simply because people always say when you don't have anything to say to somebody, you talk about the weather. So the only link I can see here is that if somebody does bring up the weather with you, they don't have anything else to say to you, lol. But whether or not this is a strictly British thing, I can't say.

The British flegm is a thing I've often heard but I always thought it meant you were kind of cool dandies 😀 And about the weather thing, IT'S EXACTLY what I thought! When I guy talks to me about the weather, I think "Haha, the weather talk now, I guess he doesn't know what else to say 😀 Oh boy. Yes yes, the weather is awful my dear!" And I found it was a bit harsh to say that if you ask too much questions you are a nosey Parker, because in my opinion you only show interest 😀

As for humor, I would say that irony and sarcasm is a huge part of British comedy but not necessarily something that extends beyond entertainment. The example you've given is quite typical but I don't personally see this as coming out of wishing to be earnest or whatever. I would certainly not look at someone differently because they were earnest. There's a huge difference between being earnest and being arrogant which may be what this means?

I knew irony was very British (cf Monty Python & Fawlty Towers :heart🙂 and I do use it a lot, but I wouldn't say people who don't use it are earnest at all, and it made no sense when the teacher said that. I thought this was too easy: you are either ironic or way too serious. It's like you weren't nuanced people. Come on!

 

[mayfever]

I am going to reply to this thread as a German who has lived in the UK on and off during the past years, so my outsider perspective might add something to the discussion:

The Humour thing: Yes. It. Is. Everywhere. There's a possibility that I might be aware of it more because of my nationality (by the way, we Germans DO have a sense of humour, but using humour is socially restricted to certain situations, whereas in Britain and Ireland there are very very few situations where a joke would be inappropriate). It's not proper thigh-slapping humour though, it is very important to keep a dead-pan expression (nothing worse than people laughing at their own jokes!). I have probably internalised that a bit too much, because I very often get that "OMG is she for REAL?" face when I meet new people in Germany who are not used to my sense of humour. It ALSO causes a lot of confusion when I'm in England and I meet new people and tell them that I'm from Germany and they're like "But it SOUNDED like she said something funny." I was talking to a Welsh bloke the other day, he asked where I was from and when I told him, I got the obvious "Germany? Are you a nazi?" and I deadpanned "Sure I am, aren't you? Everybody should be". The look on his face was priceless, he was so confused lol.

The Class System: Not as bad as it used to be, but still there. Again, I might notice it more because we don't have anything comparable in Germany (we have rich people and poor people), but even so, I'm thinking that people have probably internalised it so much that they don't notice anymore. I've heard the explanation that if you don't know what you are, you are middle-class, and I guess that's probably true, but even so people can be "posh" even if they're poor and things can be "naff" even if they cost a lot of money.

It kind of makes me laugh. Most people will insist they are not your typical Brit/Paddy/Kraut/Frog ... but people from other countries would still recognise them as one from miles away.

 

[Doppelgang]

4. Is the class awareness really that...aware in the UK?

It used to be there, and we used to be very aware, now it's still there, but we're not half as aware. No rhyme intended 😀

Yeh, there are still class divides in the UK I think, and it has to do with differing cultural backgrounds. An instance of it is mentioned by Ianigsy in relation to sport. There is a trend that says the UK is amalgamating in to one huge middle-class, but that's going to be cut short now that Labour are no longer in power, for it was a specific new labour creed to put everyone into university and alongside this into the middle class. Without that creed in power I think Britain is going to go back to a class-divided country much more again, for better or for worse I'm not sure.

I don't agree with the view that says it is all done on blue-collar, white-collar lines now,
for there are loads of people who are in white-collar jobs but working class, and loads of people who are middle-class but in blue-collar jobs, so this distinction only tells us about a distinction in employment not a distinction in culture which is what class is all about.

The following quote of ianigsy's is actually a good example of the still existent divide between working class and middle class:

You have perhaps 5% upper class and super-rich, 10% unemployable at the very bottom, perhaps another 15-20% working class who don't aspire to anything else, and a very broad middle class.

So nearly 30% of the population don't aspire to anything! LOL, a very middle class thing to say. 😉

So, for me, class divide isn't just a language thing it is also still an important way to understand features of British culture and society.

The point about the weather is true, it is often just a way of having something friendly to say to someone when you can't think of anything else, as our weather is so variable and changeable, so it's always on our minds cos we always have to be ready for the next shower!

There is a bit of a problem about people who are too earnest in Britain, as it suggests an eagerness, that can lead to arrogance. We are very happy about eagerness in small groups, but in public and formal settings amongst large groups of people who you don't know that well it is something that is not really liked.

The nosey parker thing seems to not be very representative, as most people are quite happy to help you out if you ask them a question from my experience.

Overall I'd say, many of those points still apply to British society, they're not all just cliches, but they hardly scratch the surface of what it is like to actually be a british person, for starters we tend to think of ourselves as english, scottish, irish or welsh. But one age-old cliche you can be sure applies to us now and probably always is our love for forming queues and our dissaproval of people who jump queues, everything else about britishness may change, classes may dissolve but we'll still always have our eye on queue jumpers 😀

 

[Bluebird]

Since I'm from Scotland and not the UK (since that's England apparently) then it's hard to answer. The humour thing, I think, is very different between England and Scotland. Scottish humour has way more in common with the Irish. I don't consider myself British because by that stereotype the word British means English, and that would be like calling myself German or French. Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just not German or French...

I don't know about the class thing. A lot of the most successful Scots in recent times have came from a lower class background, and it's not really seen as a hindrance to success or anything like that.

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

Kean agrees: Definitely agree on the Scots and Irish sharing a similar humour 🙂

Haha I knew you would back me up on that one! 🙂

 

[Ollehh]

1. What do you think about what my teacher said? How do you act in the same/different ways that what he said?

Decided to split this into the three categories you mentioned.

British flegm: I completely disagree with this, I know plenty of people who gossip about others, me and my mum are good examples of this, we're always gossiping about people we know, as well as the occasional discussion about "celebrities". However, I must agree with the point which is that we don't like it when people ask things, I suppose, it depends what you ask, and if you're very blunt about it, then it's inappropriate, in my eyes anyway. To be honest, we don't talk about the weather a whole lot, usually I just jump in during conversations or we talk about TV a lot (for most of the population, that TV is X Factor, however, with me and my friends it seems to be Doctor Who, and occasionally Buffy.)

Humour: I guess a lot of people like people who are very serious during humour (for example, I find Brittany off Glee hilarious, because she's so serious), although, I find a lot of my friends like sarcasm (can you class this as humour?), but yeah, usually when we make jokey comments, they always seem to be sarcastic. I don't think your type of humour changes the way people see you, I think people just like different types of humour compared to others.

The classes: Disagree with this completely! To be honest, whenever I hear about classes is during History (at least, when I was doing it at school), and in an insulting way. A lot of people are insulted about the way they dress and act (like what slang they use) and where about they live. I think the comment about the social climber is completely incorrect, to me anyway, I think it depends on the way the people do it. If they work hard, then they're praised, however, people who marry rich people just for their money are despised (for instance, there's Heather Mills, who apparently only married Paul McCartney for his money, and then divorced him and got millions from it.)

2. Do you consider yourself to be "British" according to those criterias?
Nope, I consider myself British because I live in England, not because of traits. Everyone's personality is different, yes, there are some stereotypical British people, but nowadays, it's very rare.

3. What is the point of classes if it doesn't change interaction or social status and it's just a langage status?
As I said, I don't really hear about classes, so I don't think it necessarily matters in this day and age. It probably meant more to people late 1800s, early 1900s, but over the years it's just disintegrated, possibly because the classes have merged slightly.

4. Is the class awareness really that...aware in the UK?
No, not really. If I hadn't learned about it in History, I don't think I would've thought about different classes.

Anyway, I don't know whether my answers are any good, since I'm Welsh but I live in England.

 

[Ianigsy]

To add a bit extra- last night I went to my French conversation club meeting and ended up sitting next to a (very nice) young Hungarian woman, and I was very conscious of how physically uninhibited she was- not particularly in a sexual way, but I was very much aware of things like her leaning across the table to speak to somebody else or tapping my arm to attract my attention. That just isn't what a British person would do with somebody they met half an hour ago!

Having said that, she must have had an effect on me, because I thought on my way home I could still smell her perfume on my clothes- it was only when I got home and undressed that I realised it was my deodorant (it's a new brand so I'm not that familiar with the scent)! All that leaning up against me must have set my pheromones going...

 

[mayfever]

Having said that, she must have had an effect on me, because I thought on my way home I could still smell her perfume on my clothes- it was only when I got home and undressed that I realised it was my deodorant (it's a new brand so I'm not that familiar with the scent)! All that leaning up against me must have set my pheromones going...

haha that is funny. So many British people I know date cross-culturally, because the girls say British guys are obnoxious and the guys say British girls are boring. I don't agree with either, but I don't complain since that makes it a lot easier for me 😀