BtVS: a Better Show than Angel?

You see similar sacrifice from Angel, Wesley, and even Cordelia.

If you want to get technical, sacrifice is about as common a theme as redemption.



Not to the extent that Angel has. He signed away his Shanshu in order to fight a battle that couldn't be won against all-powerful evil. He altered time and reality to give his son and Buffy each a better life. One of those times, he made a pact with the devil to do it.

Compared to that, Willow and Anya's redemption is essentially "Man, I feel crappy about what I did."



Buffy is a true hero. I never disagreed. But so is Angel.



But. Did he actually save the world by sacrifice your own being to save the world.
And i i recall it wasn't Buffy who saved they relationship it was Joyce because she the one who made him make sense.

Same as Buffy she Scarface Angel too save the world,and herself but the stupid thing is that she isn't going threw redemption.

When you mentioned about Willow and Anya what makes Angel so special.Anya thought against humans and she dead by protecting and fighting for human survival,Also Faith,and even spike he sacrificed himself to save the world as well.
Angel is a true fighter but going threw redemption ,everybodys going threw it ..
 
^ Wow... I was sincerely hoping that it wouldn't come to a full-blown argument. There's no reason for this.

Anyway, the difference between Buffy and Angel to me is:
Buffy: You instantly get hooked on the characters, but the story... Well it only depends if you immediatly enjoy it or not. Don't get me wrong, after a few epys, you WILL be hooked with everything BtVS.
Angel: You instantly get hooked on the story. For example, if you start at S4 (which I did), you will immediately start thinking to yourself, "Omg, what it going on! How are they gonna solve this! etc.etc." However, with the characters... It takes a while. With, almost literally, every character in Angel, you will find yourself debating with yourself as to if this is a good enough character for me to invest my emotions in. Eventually you will, but it just takes longer than it does with Buffy.

And that's my 2 cents. 🙂
 
Akitta21
Akitta21
very nicely put!!
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ukkid09
We are discussing our opinions...
I think the ultimate show would be Buffy and Angel merged.

There were elements that I prefered in both. Storywise, i though Buffy was much stronger, and very easy to connect with the characters...and more importantly, understand their actions. A lot of Angel had some very strange shifts where I felt slightly disconnected with the characters. Wesley in particular, I liked the shifts in character, I just wanted more detail into why.

Plenty of things in Angel were better though... A far better use of 'demons' and variety. I also loved the darkness of Angel, and Buffy only managed to get that in its last few seasons. I think Angel was much deeper in places too, the mythology was utilised whereas Buffy dumbed things down a little. It didn't really have great season-long storys but at least we got into some deep reasons for why Angel is the way he is for example.

So, the more complex storylines of Buffy, the darker elements of Angel, the more accessible characters of Buffy, the deeper mythology of Angel and its use of demons would result in the best show for me. As it is, Buffy wins. I like the overarching storylines that actually seem to make sense (vs Angel and S4) and all the elements of Angel are still used in Buffy (it gets darker in S6 and we get more demons as the seasons progress). So imo... Buffy.
 
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ukkid09
[No message]
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Totally agree. I love both shows for different reasons.
I've just started re-watching Angel again. When I was younger I would have said Buffy hands down. I stopped watching Angel when I was younger because it wasn't like Buffy. I was a dumb child. I'm so glad I'm re-watching but it is one hell of a series! I think the reason I didn't get on with it was, as Silum says, because it was much darker and more in-depth than Buffy; reasons why I absolutely love it now. The demons are largely much more interesting, I love the use of prophecies and The Powers That Be and stuff, it's just so...convincing, in that really fantastical/vampiric way! (sw)

I'm get increasingly disappointed in the volume of 'competition' threads about the two shows, and increasingly Dollhouse. They are all completely different shows!! Appreciate them them for what they are...please. Fair enough, if you just don't like one of them but there is no need to constantly compare the two and use one show to say that the other is worse.

And Gideon, I do have to agree with you. I have nothing against Buffy but your comment about Choice vs Predispostion was spot on! 🙂
 
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ukkid09
So you like Angel better!!! :(
Buffy


Pros...
* Great character development
* some episode's got allot off humor
* relate to real life.
* Great plots,story lines.
* great quality of episodes.
* Great big bads.
* Great cast,the cast put the character in they own personality's.
* Great fight scenes.
*adventure into adult hood.
* never the same.NOT PRACTICABLE !!.
* light themes /dark themes.
* Range off quality demons.
* sensational emotional roller coaster ride.
* spuffy


cons.

* the quality of the cloths were abit silly at some points.
*


Angel



pros...

* Good range of episodes
* Good fight scene ..
* Dark theme.
* FAITH arc
* good range of demons.
* Good cast
* Very good spin off.
* Fighting for Redemption



cons


* I think they relate the new character like the scoobies.AKA Fred =another Willow,Lorne = another Anya.
* Could be remarkably boring at times.
* range of boring episode of the arcs.




Buffy is better !! dont give me wrong Angel is Great, but i relate to Buffy more ...
 
ukkid09 agrees: So you like Angel better!!! 🙁

No!!! I do not want to choose between them because there is no point. It's like saying what's better bacon or Dr Pepper?! They're different things! I commented on the things I liked about Angel as a series, but didn't make a judgement on either, and I'm not going to! 😛

I'm sorry, but if the only con you can come up with is regarding the clothes on Buffy, then you are being very, very biased and subjective here!
 
No!!! I do not want to choose between them because there is no point. It's like saying what's better bacon or Dr Pepper?! They're different things! I commented on the things I liked about Angel as a series, but didn't make a judgement on either, and I'm not going to! 😛

I'm sorry, but if the only con you can come up with is regarding the clothes on Buffy, then you are being very, very biased and subjective here!

Their the only cons i can think of 🙂
Why not you do pros and cons 🙂
 
Give me a little while, and I will.

You might regret that challenge, if you're not up for reading an essay tonight! (sw)

I'll get back to you! lol

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

Ok, so this might not be coming tonight. 😛

But, I will do it - have no fear. Although I'm debating that it might be better for me to wait until I've rewatched the whole of Angel, really. I'll see! 🙂
 
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ukkid09
I am ready lol!
I like the Buffy movie best.
Better music, real Valley Girls, cramps as a spidey-sense, Pike makes a better Spike, Pee-Wee Herman and Nexus 6 and no Xander or Willow.
What's not to love?
Summerlilly agrees: You're joking, right?!
The Ferg agrees: I sincerely hope your joking...
All I'm gonna say here is that some people just aren't as swift as others.

This thread is done by the OP as a very clumsy "Buffy is Bestest, how many agree with me?!?" exercise.

Just look to the replies along the lines of "You don't agree with me? *sniffle sniffle*"

So... by throwing a complete monkey wrench into that insane troll logic I subvert it.

[Plus, back-slapping isn't a component of my personality.]

On the same page now?
 
Buffy Cons:

  • Making Buffys love interest 240, when shes 15.
  • 'Go Fish' ...Enough said.
  • The initiative (ok, not that bad, led to some interesting episodes)
  • Setting up Riley as the greatest love ever, then throwing Angel in to confuse the viewers, thus leading to fan hatred.
  • Vampires that don't sparkle in sunlight??! Whats that about?
  • Some very simple themes used a little too strongly (Cordy, cheerleeder come hero. Beer Bad.... Beer, bad. lol)
  • Started in 1997 with a show focused on science fiction (S1 effects suffered, a decade later; just think how awesome 7 seasons of Buffy could be)
  • Empty Places, S7. Epic, epic disappointment on the part of so many characters. I wanted to close my eyes.
  • Ubervamps become lamovamps in Chosen

eh, i'm done.
 
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ukkid09
Wheres your pros.
S
Summerlilly
I don't think Riley was set up as the greatest love EVER.
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Riley WAS the greatest love ever! it was a magnificent love!
ukkid09 agrees: Wheres your pros.

I've already given my Pros. Just trying to give a little perspective, the show isn't perfect.

...though close enough for me. 😉
 
No!!! I do not want to choose between them because there is no point. It's like saying what's better bacon or Dr Pepper?! They're different things! I commented on the things I liked about Angel as a series, but didn't make a judgement on either, and I'm not going to! 😛

I'm sorry, but if the only con you can come up with is regarding the clothes on Buffy, then you are being very, very biased and subjective here!
I agree with the rest of what your saying, but the bolded statement has gotta be the worst cop-out out there. I know, this isn't a big deal, but just answer. 🙂 For example, you can compare Twilight and Harry Potter. They're different genres, but they're both books. :/ That's another one of my 2 cents. : king :

Akitta: Thanks! I was hoping that whole paragraph wasn't pointless! 🙂
Ukkid09: Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to add a reputation saying: "You like Angel better too!" (No offense meant to you of course)

btw, I'm probably gonna make a pros and cons sometime also. 🙂
 
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ukkid09
Okay :)!
laianna
laianna
Tad off subject but I hate the Twilight vs. HP hype too... Harry Potter is a million times better, no question!
Summerlilly agrees: I don't think Riley was set up as the greatest love EVER.

Umm, sure he was. He just failed at it. He was pretty much THE most awesome 'normal' human boyfriend that Buffy could ever relate to/hope for. He was the breath of fresh air in the demon world Buffy lived in. The ONLY reason imo that Riley didn't work out was because Angel was introduced late in S4 as a plot tool for crossovers between Buffy and Angel. The Riley saga was quickly killed off when we see Buffy in a perfect life with angel in 'I will remember you' then the subsequent visit where Buffy leaves Riley as a fool to talk to Angel.

Riley was always destined to be an epic relationship, then the writers faltered (angel) and the fans spoke out..quite rightly. Riley failed. The only way to get rid of riley quickly was to make a quick dash at the 'Riley is jealous' card, and making him out to be a jealous moron completely out of character with his previous developments. It worked...just. But only by us all viewing Riley as an idiot for not seeing what he had... in reality.... Riley was EXACTLY what Buffy needed, they just played it wrong, and the anti-Riley cult won. The reality is, we saw Riley go from a hero soldier, to a man who couldn't even understand a girlfriend who had a mother who was dying. ...Who resorted to vamp bites because he couldnt get enough attention from his distraught girlfriend. 🙄

...Who in their right mind would expect Buffy to be anything less than distant in that situation? He showed his true weakness, and it was completely out of character. Out of character, because he had the potential to be 'the one' yet, imo, writing demands got in the way. ie.. 'I will remember you'
 
laianna
laianna
I think the writers failed at making him part of the Initiative. I personally didn't mind him up until that point (well, around when the Initiative tried to kill Buffy, etc. anyway).
While I truly love both shows, I'd have to say Buffy is probably the better of the two. When considered as a whole, Buffy just works better. Buffy is our introduction to this world, and stands alone. Angel, on the other hand, is better viewed having already watched the first three seasons of Buffy. There's just already been so much history for Angel and Cordelia and (to a lesser extent) Wesley. It would have been redundant to repeat all of it, so the writers just had to try and explain things enough so new people could jump in. But the first season of Angel still stood very much in the shadow of Buffy. It took awhile to really figure out what the show was about, and in the meantime, crossovers with Buffy kept it's new audience interested but kind of made it feel like it was still dependent on it's parent series. This was less of an issue during seasons 2 through 4, but then season 5 re-introduced Spike, Harmony, and Andrew (obviously to pick up viewers of Buffy after it concluded). This is great if you already like Buffy, but it must have been annoying to people who only watched Angel. So, as a standalone, I think Buffy works better. There are still a few moments where this is an issue on Buffy (Faith's redemption mostly) but it's limited compared to Angel.

I also think Buffy's strength was it's more consistant cast. David Boreanaz was the only person who was a cast member in episode one and the last episode of Angel. Buffy had her, Willow, and Xander from beginning to end, with Giles always in the mix as well (even if he was out of the credits by the end).

I hear people say Angel was more mature....well, I don't really know that I'd even say that's true. It's about older people, I guess. But does that really make it a more mature show? Buffy could be much lighter in tone, but Angel did plenty of goofy things as well. I mean, there are episodes about Angel turning into a puppet, episodes where Lorne helps guide Angel through karaoke singing, etc. And yes, Angel is dark, but I feel like people sometimes forget that Buffy could be pretty dark as well. Few shows I can think of would do an arch where the heroin is so unhappy that she has sex with an evil creature she despises just to feel something.....and almost gets raped later by this same creature. In my opinions, both shows had a lot of darkness and a lot of humor. The balance was just tipped in a slightly different direction on Angel than it was on Buffy. I don't know that that makes it more mature though. Both shows had strong writing, themes, and little moments that repeated viewing rewards.

I will say in Angel's favor that I think the best actor and best actress awards in Buffy/Angel go to Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker. I also prefer "Not Fade Away" to the easier, more traditional ending of "Chosen."

Silum agrees: 2nd paragraph: It wasnt 'only' Angel, Harmony was in episode 1 and the last episode. ..In fact, Harm being from the unaired pilot through to the finale of Angel is the longest running cast member

I think you misunderstood what I meant by that. I was arguing about how Buffy's cast stayed more consistant versus Angel's cast changing. Harmony being in episode one of Buffy doesn't have any relevance there. Angel's pilot featured the regulars Cordelia and Doyle, and it's last episode had Wes, Illyria, Spike, Gunn, Harmony, Lorne. Only Angel (as far as regulars, Lindsey was in both episodes) remained by then linking the first episode to the last.
 
S
Silum
2nd paragraph: It wasnt 'only' Angel, Harmony was in episode 1 and the last episode. ..In fact, Harm being from the unaired pilot through to the finale of Angel is the longest running cast member
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ukkid09
[No message]
I think you misunderstood what I meant by that. I was arguing about how Buffy's cast stayed more consistant versus Angel's cast changing. Harmony being in episode one of Buffy doesn't have any relevance there. Angel's pilot featured the regulars Cordelia and Doyle, and it's last episode had Wes, Illyria, Spike, Gunn, Harmony, Lorne. Only Angel (as far as regulars, Lindsey was in both episodes) remained by then linking the first episode to the last.
Sorry, I liked your points. I was just throwing in some useless trivia 😛
 
Summerlilly agrees: I don't think Riley was set up as the greatest love EVER.

Umm, sure he was. He just failed at it. He was pretty much THE most awesome 'normal' human boyfriend that Buffy could ever relate to/hope for. He was the breath of fresh air in the demon world Buffy lived in. The ONLY reason imo that Riley didn't work out was because Angel was introduced late in S4 as a plot tool for crossovers between Buffy and Angel. The Riley saga was quickly killed off when we see Buffy in a perfect life with angel in 'I will remember you' then the subsequent visit where Buffy leaves Riley as a fool to talk to Angel.

Riley was always destined to be an epic relationship, then the writers faltered (angel) and the fans spoke out..quite rightly. Riley failed. The only way to get rid of riley quickly was to make a quick dash at the 'Riley is jealous' card, and making him out to be a jealous moron completely out of character with his previous developments. It worked...just. But only by us all viewing Riley as an idiot for not seeing what he had... in reality.... Riley was EXACTLY what Buffy needed, they just played it wrong, and the anti-Riley cult won. The reality is, we saw Riley go from a hero soldier, to a man who couldn't even understand a girlfriend who had a mother who was dying. ...Who resorted to vamp bites because he couldnt get enough attention from his distraught girlfriend. 🙄

...Who in their right mind would expect Buffy to be anything less than distant in that situation? He showed his true weakness, and it was completely out of character. Out of character, because he had the potential to be 'the one' yet, imo, writing demands got in the way. ie.. 'I will remember you'

I guess it depends on how you define "Great Love". Don't get me wrong, I loved Riley. I agree with most of your points. Riley was what Buffy needed in some ways but in others he wasn't. Isn't great love supposed to be exciting and scary? Isn't is supposed to want you to give all you have to that other person no matter what? I think only Angel was Buffy's true and great love. *sorry!* For me, Riley and Buffy's relationship wasn't that exciting. It wasn't an epic story. It wasn't meant to be.
 
I agree with the rest of what your saying, but the bolded statement has gotta be the worst cop-out out there. I know, this isn't a big deal, but just answer. 🙂

Umm...ouch?! Haha. I don't really think it's a cop-out, if I'm honest. I don't want to choose, I'm not going to choose. No matter whether the whole board thinks it a cop out and begs me to. I don't want to. They're different shows and although you might choose between Harry Potter and Twilight or bacon and Dr. Pepper, I don't like to.

Besides, as I haven't finished re-watching Angel and catching up on what I've missed, right now it would be an even bigger cop out to choose one.
 
I think they are two different beasts. It would be like comparing Buffy to the Office for me haha. I was such a fan of Buffy and when all of a sudden Angel and Cordelia were no longer there, it really bothered me. I only watched the first season of Angel and I didn't like the pacing all that much, it was just so different from Buffy, and Cordelia was the only thing that kept me going.

Eventually I began to watch Season Four of Angel but I was like... What the Hell is going on?! Why does Angel have a son?!

All in all I think Buffy was better because those characters were created from the beginning, we saw a full evolution where as Angel was taking characters from another show and trying to bring them to new life, and for me it didn't work... So Buffy wins for me.
 
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