(BtVS) The WORST.

For me I think the worst ep is a toss-up between I Robot, You Jane and Amends.

The first is just... bad, and Amends is mind-numbingly boring.
 
NothingButSong said:
Bad Eggs, Ted and Killed By Death are some of my favourites. Granted, I am a lover of Season 2 though.

My least favourite is probably Where the Wild Things Are - even a shirtless Riley couldn't save it.
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i'm a season 2 lover, too. maybe it's not so much that those episodes are bad (although bad eggs...meh, and inca mummy girl = just atrocious). i think i've just seen ted and killed by death too many times.
 
I have to go with "Where The Wild Things Are"

This was, IMO, totally useless episode - if they wanted to explore and make a statment about Buffy and Riley and their sexuality being a substitute of the couple's communication problems and their other cultural background conflicts - anything would have been better than out of control sex. How many times is Buffy going to be plagued with her sexual life being controlled by outside forces.

In retrospect, I guess this episode is nothing compared to the out-of-control sexual events of The Great Space Frak.

---------- Post added at 10:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

Chosen Enemy said:
Why stupid? He was the only one alive who faught Slayers and beat them. She didn't have a choice. It's either die or know how not to die. It's not like she wanted to talk to him at all, but he was her way for understanding the whole Slayer power thing, to prevent almost death and death. If at all, that was smart of her. He can't hurt her, she knows that, what with the chip in his brain. And he would do almost anything for money. She knew that, she knew him. If she had to pay him for information (that he didn't have to give her, he could have said no, and she knew it was a possibility) so she wouldn't die, why the hell not?

James a bad actor? I don't think there's anyone in the world who would have played Spike better. He MADE the character. Good actors do that. I can think of bad actors from the Buffyverse. Eliza Dushku isn't very good (maybe only as Faith), Davind Boreanaz is really not convinsing and shifty at times. Michelle Trachtenberg is really out of it. Amber Benson, come on. IMO, James is way better than those four. And I don't see anything bad with his acting in Fool For Love, he was great and really believeable. And no, that's not me the Spike fan talking. Is it the you who hates Spike who's talking?
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In my opinion you want a lesson in Fine Acting - just watch James Marsters literally swallow all the pain, hatred and anger that he lives with from his life as William and his life as Spike. I think there would be many performers who would describe his acting in this episode and the entire series as superb.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
[No message]
Definitely OMWF... and it isn't even close. The "musical episode" is never not a bad idea and Buffy's might be the worst of the bunch. Anytime you have actors who aren't professional singers trying to sing material written by production staff that are not professional songwriters you have something that feels like a forced death march into a high school talent show, and that's how I felt the entire episode.

Beyond that, it took the dramatic thrust beyond the season (Buffy's resurrection and it's meaning) and revealed such to her friends vis-a-vis song.... which sapped the whole moment of meaning. Not to mention the ultra silly conclusion and the idea that, once again, everyone just forgot how strange everything was. Ugh.

After that, it tends to get murky what comes next. I'm more forgiving of the first season bland episodes cause the show was a mid-season replacement working on a thin budget and still following Whedon's original vision of mocking B-horror tropes. In other words, the cheese in those episodes were a result of few other options or directly on purpose.

Other commonly cited episodes I enjoy for those same reasons, like Go Fish and Beer Bad. I enjoy them as they are largely light hearted affairs that aren't meant to be taken seriously in the first place.

I do hate all the robot stuff, or anytime we are supposed to believe that someone did something in Sunnydale that was scientifically impossible for anyone else. Like Warren creating the most pitch perfect robot ever seen. My credulity is already strained enough dealing with magic and the concept behind "The Slayer", don't ask me to swallow that, please.
 
Ruminator said:
Beyond that, it took the dramatic thrust beyond the season (Buffy's resurrection and it's meaning) and revealed such to her friends vis-a-vis song.... which sapped the whole moment of meaning.
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So OMWF is my favorite episode, so I disagree with everything you said about it, but I can understand all of it except for this part. I don't understand how you think that because Buffy told everyone she was in heaven in song took the meaning out of it. I think it gave it more meaning. Everything feels more powerful to me if it's said in song. Every one of the characters had a realization their lives would forever be different and had to "face the music" literally (except maybe Willow... that comes in the next episode). The fact it was done in song made it more powerful to me, especially since these songs are what they feel in their hearts.
 
zobothehobo said:
I don't understand how you think that because Buffy told everyone she was in heaven in song took the meaning out of it. I think it gave it more meaning. Everything feels more powerful to me if it's said in song.
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You answer your own question here. I don't hold to this belief.

But more importantly, I don't see it's dramatic weight especially when forced, and the singing in OMWF was completely forced. I'm a big fan of the internal consistency when it comes to writing, and people breaking into song and dance is against that sort of consistency in the realm of the show. Ergo, it came across as a forced crutch that limited it's appeal.
 
Ruminator said:
You answer your own question here. I don't hold to this belief.

But more importantly, I don't see it's dramatic weight especially when forced, and the singing in OMWF was completely forced. I'm a big fan of the internal consistency when it comes to writing, and people breaking into song and dance is against that sort of consistency in the realm of the show. Ergo, it came across as a forced crutch that limited it's appeal.
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It did feel a little forced. But every show that has a musical episode finds a reason for the characters to sing. I don't think it ruins the episode. And to be honest, it's not that important in OMWF. The reason they started singing wasn't the point of this episode. The point was exposing all the fears, feelings, secrets, and I think it was a very original way to do it - by singing. Doesn't matter why they started singing. Doesn't matter if the songs were good or not, or if the actors sang well or bad. What matters is the lyrics. They are the script itself and they are the feelings they kept inside them. They say all what they really feel by singing, they can't not to.
 
Chosen Enemy said:
But every show that has a musical episode finds a reason for the characters to sing... The point was exposing all the fears, feelings, secrets, and I think it was a very original way to do it - by singing.
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See, these two sentences seem to be in direct contrast to each other. Since we are acknowledging that other shows do musical episodes (and to my everlasting sadness they do) then it isn't terribly original to do one. There is a reason why "Singing" is listed on the Jumping The Shark website as one of the categories for having done so.

Doesn't matter if the songs were good or not, or if the actors sang well or bad. What matters is the lyrics. They are the script itself and they are the feelings they kept inside them.
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I disagree. I mean, if you are saying the songs have become the script then the delivery of them matters a lot since it has become the vehicle by which they are given. A bad actor will make a good script sound bad, a bad singer will make a good song sound bad, etc. This is important, then, when looking at how to receive such an episode.

And as I said in my original post:

Anytime you have actors who aren't professional singers trying to sing material written by production staff that are not professional songwriters you have something that feels like a forced death march into a high school talent show, and that's how I felt the entire episode.
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Ruminator said:
See, these two sentences seem to be in direct contrast to each other. Since we are acknowledging that other shows do musical episodes (and to my everlasting sadness they do) then it isn't terribly original to do one. There is a reason why "Singing" is listed on the Jumping The Shark website as one of the categories for having done so.



I disagree. I mean, if you are saying the songs have become the script then the delivery of them matters a lot since it has become the vehicle by which they are given. A bad actor will make a good script sound bad, a bad singer will make a good song sound bad, etc. This is important, then, when looking at how to receive such an episode.

And as I said in my original post:
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It's not what I meant. I didn't mean having a musical episode is original, but the way the script let all the truth come out by singing - that's original. They could have made them all just sit around the table, talking about what they really feel. But that's not very creative They found a more creative way to have everything exposed and make a big enough mess to continue that plot in the next episdoes and the rest of the season, because the way they exposed everything was like "BANG!" in their faces. Like, "why didn't you tell me?" "How could you?" "This is horrible, I'm so sorry for you!" etc. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

While I agree with you about the reason they started singing was an excuse, I do not agree with you about the way they chose to do it. Because in my opinion, it doesn't matter. You also must remember that this isn't Broadway. Not all actors can sing, but they did their best, and the prodution did their best. I think that if someone else were to sing instead of Sarah (which was the original plan, but SMG decided it was important that she would be the who to sing for Buffy), someone who can sing better than her, THAT would be horrible! And it's not like everybody in the show itself has to know how to sing. it's not realistic. They should sing the way they can, not fake it by having another singer to sing for them, or go to the extreme and not have a singing episode at all. The way they sing doesn't move the plot forward, it doesn't matter that much. It has nothing to do with the script. If it was about a singer who can't stop singing, then I'd agree. But this is Buffy, the characters are who they are, the way the actors deliver it IS the way the characters deliver it.
 
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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I'm a big fan of the internal consistency when it comes to writing, and people breaking into song and dance is against that sort of consistency in the realm of the show.
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How so? I am a big stickler for internal consistency too but the idea of a musical episode doesn't bother me. It's not like it was ever established that there couldn't be a demonic lord of the dance or that he was any more implausible than many of the other supernatural occurrences in the show. The implementation, however...

The not so great signing doesn't bother me either, the story is about people who aren't professional singers - if anything some of them are singing too well. All of this pales in comparison with Xander summoning demons for fun and neither him nor his friends being bothered one bit that people died as a result of all this.
 
Chosen Enemy
Chosen Enemy
[No message]
H
hazzard
i agree with the "if anything some of them are singing too well"
Chosen Enemy said:
I didn't mean having a musical episode is original, but the way the script let all the truth come out by singing - that's original.
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That describes any kind of dramatic musical, though. I mean, when Tony and Maria are singing "Tonight" in West Side Story they are letting the "truth" come out through music. I get what you are trying to say, how supposedly buried secrets are forced out by song, but that concept is simply a mixture of the old "you have to tell the truth" line mixed with the kind of music above. It's drama, with music.

Not all actors can sing, but they did their best, and the prodution did their best.
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If that's what we base it on, then Plan 9 From Outer Space was an excellent movie, cause Ed Wood gave it his all. I, personally, think there is a more objective way to measure quality.

And it's not like everybody in the show itself has to know how to sing. it's not realistic.
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It's not realistic for everyone to break out in song either. Realism is less the issue than story telling means.

The way they sing doesn't move the plot forward, it doesn't matter that much. It has nothing to do with the script.
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The singing, in this case, replaces the acting. That's what I was trying to say. And the acting is certainly paramount in moving a plot forward in a meaningful way, ergo, the singing is important in pushing forward the dramatic narrative in a musical.

Icarium said:
How so? I am a big stickler for internal consistency too but the idea of a musical episode doesn't bother me. It's not like it was ever established that there couldn't be a demonic lord of the dance or that he was any more implausible than many of the other supernatural occurrences in the show. The implementation, however...
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Essentially, I'd argue it's one giant deus ex machina. Buffy is replete with them, but pretty much every time a non-musical based entertainment program does a "special musical episode" it revolves around a terribly forced deus ex machnia to explain the sudden change in genre. In Buffy's case, it was a "music demon". Scrubs had a guy with a brain tumor (if memory serves), and so on.

And in fact, by arguing that such a ridiculous demon isn't outside the realm of possibility for the show, I think you kinda point out why fantasy in general, and Buffy in particular, has really terrible internal logic. Personally, I'd argue that's why the quality of the show can (and did) swing so dramatically.

The not so great signing doesn't bother me either, the story is about people who aren't professional singers - if anything some of them are singing too well.
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See, that's why I'd argue that, really, a musical episode is a bad idea from the start. You are either gonna end up with people who can't sing and are super shy about it (which certainly happened here) and thus really hurt the actual presentation of the episode. Or you get people that are implausibly good and it strains suspension of disbelief.

All of this pales in comparison with Xander summoning demons for fun and neither him nor his friends being bothered one bit that people died as a result of all this.
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Honestly, I felt that was a given so only mentioned one sentence on it, but yes, it's probably the worst part of it. Just ludicrous.
 
Chosen Enemy
Chosen Enemy
See, I really disagree with all of that, because I think you're seeing this episode from the wrong direction. But that's your opinion
Essentially, I'd argue it's one giant deus ex machina.
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How so? The singing doesn't really solve any of the problems the characters are facing, if anything it adds new ones.

And in fact, by arguing that such a ridiculous demon isn't outside the realm of possibility for the show, I think you kinda point out why fantasy in general, and Buffy in particular, has really terrible internal logic.
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Buffy has a problematic premise, sure, since the world-building not only contradicts itself often but it doesn't make much sense to begin with. But that has little to do it with it being fantasy and a lot with the writers being openly against the idea that consistency should get in the way of telling the story they want to tell and having fun openly mocking the constituencies in their story sometimes. TV shows in general have appalling internal consistency, fantasy or not.

See, that's why I'd argue that, really, a musical episode is a bad idea from the start. You are either gonna end up with people who can't sing and are super shy about it (which certainly happened here) and thus really hurt the actual presentation of the episode.
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Why would that hurt the presentation of the episode? Maybe it's just me but I didn't expect them to sing that well anyway. Yes, I admit I enjoy Amber Benson and ASH's songs the most and they are arguably the best singers in the cast but I like Xander, Anya and Buffy's performances too. If only the episode didn't have such a criminally stupid plot to complement the songs (or Willow hadn't been turned into an abuser, making the romantic feelings in Tara's song seem full of unpleasant implications) I would have liked it a lot overall land I am not a fan of musicals in generals.
 
It seems I posted here but didn't bother to actually answer the question in the topic. So, I don't hate any episodes and I like most of the ones that seem to be unpopular. I like Go Fish, Ted, I Robot You Jane, Inca Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy and I think Where the Wild Things Are and Beer Bad are pretty funny.

I do, however, remember being pretty bored with Bad Eggs. Whenever I watch it, I tend to only pay attention every now and then. I find the story kind of boring and I think the Gorch Brothers (or whatever? I don't remember their names) are stupid. I do enjoy that one part at the end though when Willow apologizes for hitting Xander, then Cordy asks if she hit him too and Xander goes "Yes! Everybody hit me!"

So that would have been the one I chose, but then I saw that someone had mentioned Some Assembly Required, which I had forgotten about and I think that's gonna have to be my worst. The main reason being that I can't even come up with one line or anything that I enjoyed about it. In fact, the only thing I recall about the episode is living dead football player in a basement and that really annoying kid singing "My Girl". So that one wins. Or, er...loses?
 
I know Becoming P2 is amazing, but I think I've probably only watched it about 4 times, I can't deal with it, Giles' joy and excitement in thinking he's going to have a beautiful romantic evening with Jenny, turned to absolute grief and horror just hurts to watch.

This doesn't mean I consider it the worst, I find it very, very hard to think of a worst, so I just when with what I watch the least.
 
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