Buffy and crews knowledge of "Not Fade Away"

[Synel]

Did Buffy and everyone from that end of the Whedonverse ever find out about what Angel and his crew went through in "Not Fade Away" or any of "After the Fall"? I haven't read any of the comics (although I did read through all the episode summaries for "After the Fall" in these forums) but I have seen every episode of the TV series for Angel. After seeing all the trouble Angel and them had with everyone on Buffys end, asking them for help and being written off, being used and then betrayed or otherwise simply being distrusted because of working for Wolfram and Hart, I was a bit disappointed maybe even a little angry. One good example was when they were trying to get help for Fred as her soul was being eaten away by Illyria and Giles pretty much hung up on Angel. Also the whole snatching a mentally scarred slayer from Angel after he helped them find her was irritating -_-.

So yeah, did Buffy and them ever find out Angel was still a good guy and they basically left him and his crew out in the cold or did they just write him off as evil?

 

[Eleftheria]

I also felt very angry about distrusting Angel. It seems odd to me. I mean Buffy and Angel always had a sort of communication. They didn't say a lot about their lives of course but after taking over Wolfram and Hart, Buffy should have somehow visited Angel, asking him what's going on. "You're welcome"(despite the fact it is an amazing episode with Cordy) was meant for Buffy. Maybe in an alternate version of that episode we could see them discussing.

But yeah, Andrew coming there and a bunch of Slayers demanding that that unstable Slayer goes with them and Angel is not to be trusted? I was shocked!

I suspect that Buffy had nothing to do with it. Maybe it's Giles who doesn't trust him anymore. And failed to warn Buffy. But I don't see the point. Angel takes over an evil law-firm. Don't the Scoobies wonder what that might mean? Don't they want to communicate with him and ask him for info?
Doesn't Buffy know that sth is wrong with L.A?Monsters all around! I don't know what to say but I really hope they don't consider Angel to be evil.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I don't read the comics, but Buffy distrusting Angel for working for Wolfram and Hart doesn't surprise me at all. I'd kind of expect it. Towards the end of Angel his own people weren't sure they could trust him; they even had the viewers doubting in many cases (I know I wasn't 100% sure what was going on - though I didn't REALLY believe he'd turned uncaring/evil/whatever). Of course, as an anti-Bangel I already think they'd grown apart so much that it wouldn't be a natural-trust situation anymore anyway. They didn't know each other anymore. I don't feel automatically trusting of people I don't know well.

 

[prophecygirl17]

I was really upset about this too. I thought Angel had become so likeable during the seasons of Angel and maybe even slightly more human in a way which is why I found it difficult to understand why Giles etc would act like this towards him. I get how at first they may have been dubious but they should have given Angel a chanmce to explain.

 

[white avenger]

I've said before, and I still believe, that GILES knew about everything that went on in LA, and that he sent the team of Slayers there (the ones who appeared in "After The Fall") specifically to keep tabs on Angel and Spike as soon as he knew that Spike was back, if not sooner. Remember, it was ANDREW, working for Giles, who told Angel that Buffy didn't trust him anymore. It was GILES who refused to contact Willow when Fred was in trouble. This is, of course, pure conjecture on my part, but given his "I want much more for you" attitude from Season 7 when he tried to have Spike killed (for which I can't recall him ever trying to apologize during that season), and his general (over)protective attitude for Buffy, I think that it's a pretty good assumption. Even if Buffy no longer trusted Angel, which I highly doubt, I can't see her delivering the message through a third party. She might dis-invite him into her home, the way that she did Spike in Season 5, or slam the door in his face like she did Giles in Season 7, but she would do it face to face, not by proxy. Also, if there were something as important as a deranged Slayer running around the city attacking people the that Dana was doing, she would have gone herself, the way that she did when Faith was there in Angel's Season 1, no matter how busy she was with rounding up new Slayers.

Giles is the one who didn't trust Angel, and I don't think that he ever didafter Season 2. Giles was the one who tried to help Wood kill Spike, even though he knew that Buffy trusted and depended on him. And I believe that it was Giles who "didn't trust" Angel or anyone associated with Wolfram & Hart, not Buffy.

 

[Emzzie]

Well I read "Queen of the Slayers" which unfortunatly I have to believe is a canon since it contradicts the comics, but in it she found out about the fight and was really guilty about it.
I like WA's theory. I dont think Buffy herself was aware, but I would not be surprised if Giles knew. Somebody must have been keeping tabs on Angel and crew and he is the most likely one.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I've read issue 1-30 of Buffy, all online stories but one (in which I gather none of the scoobies appear anyway) and the two one shots, and no where does anyone mention Angel (from what I remember) or trust issues or anything recent that went on in LA (he appears in two dream sequences tough).

My guess is that Joss doesn't want to mix the IDW series or season 5 into the mix too much, so that no writers have to adapt their stories.

Well I read "Queen of the Slayers" which unfortunatly I have to believe is a canon since it contradicts the comics

Why?

 

[Emzzie]

Why?

Because in the book it is the real Buffy who is in Rome and in love with the immortal and in the comics its said to be a fake.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Why choose to believe that a book, which Joss had no involvement in, is canon, when you have a comic that Joss said is canon? Is it just because you want to believe that Rome-Buffy is real? In that case, why so?

I was disapointed at first that it wasn't Buffy the boys chased after in Rome, but then I was relieved.

No judging tough, you have the right to believe whatever you want.

 

[Emzzie]

Why choose to believe that a book, which Joss had no involvement in, is canon, when you have a comic that Joss said is canon? Is it just because you want to believe that Rome-Buffy is real? In that case, why so?

I was disapointed at first that it wasn't Buffy the boys chased after in Rome, but then I was relieved.

No judging tough, you have the right to believe whatever you want.

*Smacks head* I meant to say that the book was a non-canon!!! I was wondering why you were asking me why 😛 In no way did I want that to be Buffy in Rome. I love the comics. And hey WA! I enjoyed that book!!!

I feel really dumb now 😛

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Did Buffy and everyone from that end of the Whedonverse ever find out about what Angel and his crew went through in "Not Fade Away" or any of "After the Fall"? I haven't read any of the comics (although I did read through all the episode summaries for "After the Fall" in these forums) but I have seen every episode of the TV series for Angel. After seeing all the trouble Angel and them had with everyone on Buffys end, asking them for help and being written off, being used and then betrayed or otherwise simply being distrusted because of working for Wolfram and Hart, I was a bit disappointed maybe even a little angry. One good example was when they were trying to get help for Fred as her soul was being eaten away by Illyria and Giles pretty much hung up on Angel. Also the whole snatching a mentally scarred slayer from Angel after he helped them find her was irritating -_-.

So yeah, did Buffy and them ever find out Angel was still a good guy and they basically left him and his crew out in the cold or did they just write him off as evil?

If you read all of After the Fall and Buffy Season Eight, you'll find most if not all of the answers you're looking for. I won't elaborate, as the "twist endings" of each respective title have the answers.

And white avenger's theory actually does hold water in regards to Buffy being in the dark, as one of the first things she said in Season Eight was that she knows about Giles/Andrew's operation in Rome with the Fake!Buffy, but beyond knowing that it exists, she knows essentially nothing about the details of what they're doing there.

Not to mention the fact that all of the 2nd Arc of S8 revolved around Giles running rogue operations behind Buffy's back, and how it drove a wedge in their relationship.

 

[Synel]

I think I'd prefer the theory of Giles going behind Buffys back. That actually makes sense. Plus it's a little less of a black spot on Buffy and her crew from my perspective. Anyway, seems I'm probably gonna have to read through the comics if I wanna know for sure. Might have to check those out. But thanks for the responses. This was bugging me every time I caught an episode of Angel, or Buffy later on.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Skytteflickan88 agrees: Really? I've read most of Buffy season 8, and most questions Synel has are still unanswered for me.

Skytteflickan88 agrees: Read the comics, they're great, but expect to be left with a lot of questions about what Buffy knows or does not know about Angel.

Read through all of Season Eight, and I guarantee those questions will be answered (#01-40).

 

[white avenger]

And white avenger's theory actually does hold water in regards to Buffy being in the dark, as one of the first things she said in Season Eight was that she knows about Giles/Andrew's operation in Rome with the Fake!Buffy, but beyond knowing that it exists, she knows essentially nothing about the details of what they're doing there.

Which brings up another point. The whole fake Buffy in Rome thing just very well might have been set up exclusively as a red herring for Angel's benefit. That way, if he, or Spike, for that matter, ever came hunting for Buffy, they would go to the very visible fake in Rome rather than spend enough time searching to discover where the real Buffy actually was. Then, with a little smoke and mirrors, plus a little misdirection and "Oh, sorry, you just missed her..." type deception, Angel and Spike would be led to believe that she had moved on with someone else, and had no more interest in either of them.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Read through all of Season Eight, and I guarantee those questions will be answered (#01-40).

I've read issue 1-30. I don't think the answers are there (and I'm too lazy to check).

Could you write the answers if you have the time? Using spoilermarks of course.

 

[white avenger]

Comments on this post
Skytteflickan88 agrees: You mean she was exclusivly picked to lure Spike & Angel, and Andrew and Giles might have been the only ones who knew about it? Nice theory.

It would work perfectly, considering Giles' near obsession with keeping Buffy "protected" from her two former vampire lovers. It would seem to be to Giles' advantage concerning his relationship with Buffy, considering that most of their greatest disagreements concerned that same Angel and Spike. With them out of the way, Giles would believe that his strained relationship with Buffy might be repaired.

My only question is, why did neither Buffy nor Faith ever tried to get in contact with Angel, considering how close both Slayers were to him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Well, it's not like they're super tight. Not from what I've seen. I think they'd die for him, but I don't think they'd keep in touch. At all. Buffy & Angel would have a hard time moving on if they callaed each other too often, I think taht would hurt them. Faith might want to, but since she's kinda anti-social and afraid of opening herself up, I doubt she'd call him.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

....................

 

[Synel]

Well, it's not like they're super tight. Not from what I've seen. I think they'd die for him, but I don't think they'd keep in touch. At all. Buffy & Angel would have a hard time moving on if they callaed each other too often, I think taht would hurt them. Faith might want to, but since she's kinda anti-social and afraid of opening herself up, I doubt she'd call him.

Ya know, I can see why Buffy might put contacting Angel aside, considering the whole Angel protecting Faith from Buffy when she was in Las Angeles, tryin to get herself killed cause of the blood lust and shite she was going through. However, that very same situation would kind of put Faith in the position of looking out for Angel as well, or at least being relatively trusting. Plus being as straightforward as Faith is I'd half expect her to walk into the office and punch Angel in the face for working for evil incorporated. Ya know, before asking him wtf is going on.

Btw Buffyverse Fan, I skimmed through the recaps and I think I may have seen where the whole situation may or may not have been cleared up between Buffy and Angel, but I'm a bit hesitant about reading the actual comics. Angel is the only story/series/universe that's been tempting enough for me to consider purchasing the comic. But, to be completely honest, I don't think I want to read through a good 40 issues just to find out if the record was set straight between the two heroes/crews. I'm one of those that actually found out about Buffy through Angel, not the other way around. And I'd end up building a certain amount of exasperation with every issue I read that didn't answer the question.

It's kind of like trying to reread or skim through a book to find out that one bit of information you need to finish a report for school, or simply trying to remember something that's bugging you... and not finding it -_-.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

How about you re-start this topic when the last issue of season 8 is out and we'll try again to answer these questions? Although I doubt we'll get closure on the whole Angel crew situation. I doubt they will make room for that in these last issues, when it's leading up to the climax.

But I think you wouldn't be that awefully sorry reading Season 8, even tough no answer might come. In case you buy the first volume of Season 8 (issue 1-5, where Angel is only in a dream sequence): worst case senario you waste about 10 bucks, best case senario, you find something you love. But in case you're more of a Angel fan, buying the first volume of After the fall would be a priority of course. 🙂