Buffy and depression (+ her relation with Spike)

[Blaze]

Just opening a new thread because we were taking over the previous thread and getting very spoilery 🙂 Just as a quick summary, we were discussing whether or not Buffy could provide consent (with Spike) during s6 while being depressed. Here I'm specifically referring to the beginning of their (sexual) relationship.

See the topic here: https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?p=1112347#post1112347

It depends how much you can view person with that kind of psychological depression as being able to consent. A normal person would have likely not allowed Buffy to kiss them,

I actually think that most people would have kissed Buffy if she came on to them like this. Yes, Buffy showed sign of depression at this point, but she also showed signs of liking Spike. A true gentleman would have approach things differently of course, that is without saying that it would have been the right thing to do to refuse the kiss. But at this point I don't think Spike did something glaringly wrong in this scene by letting Buffy kiss him. He did something wrong when he became pushy about it in the future and started exploiting Buffy.

but that was never gonna happen with Spike, maybe Angel, but definitely not Spike

I don't think we would be having this discussion if it was Angel we were talking about. I'm fairly sure everyone would have been fine with Angel coming in the picture in this time of need for Buffy. That's my point, to me the issue is not with Buffy giving consent, it's with Spike abusing of the consent (which is most definitely the case here).

especially without a soul, which I agree is a valid point, although I have noticed that a lot of Spuffys tend not to see this distinction, as it means that ultimately Spuffy only lasted for the last one or two episodes of Season 7, with season 6 being a write off.

Yes, I agree with this. Although people in general tend to not see the distinction, not just Spuffies. And yes, for me the Spuffy that I like is the Spuffy of s7. Not just the last two episode, but the entire development throughout the season. S6 was not a write off, it was more like the s2 Angelus equivalent of the relationship. It cannot be forgotten, but it can be forgiven.

 

[Xin Rong]

I write off season 2 in terms of Buffy and Angels relationship, other than to acknowledge it caused issues, but it never really affected their love for one another as Buffy is one of the only characters who seems to get the distinction between Angel/Angelus.

I don't think Spike was really bad for letting Buffy kiss him, I just don't think it was right, and I agree it's his later pushiness that make his actions this season bad.

 

[thetopher]

It could be easily argued that the first kiss, while consensual, was under the influence of the spell. Buffy certainly seems to think so, but I'm not sure if this is denial or not.

Afterwards Spike just gets pushy, following Buffy around all the time on patrol and trying to form that connection again. Buffy dismisses him several times during Tabula Rasa and, especially, during Smashed.
Hounding somebody like this, who you know is in a vulnerablr state, is just plain wrong imo.

Another thing, Spike is pursing Buffy out of love, this love doesn't go away when he gets his soul, it just gets refined, I think that's why many people have a harder time distinguishing between S6 and S7 Spike and his behavior, its not as clear cut as Angel/Angelus.
I mean, c'mon, Spike acts pretty similar in both seasons (insanity not withstanding), same humour, same attitudes to stuff (he's still a rebel, and so on.), same damn coat- the lines get very blurry.

Angel and Angelus loathe each other, they're very different creatures.

 

[Blaze]

It could be easily argued that the first kiss, while consensual, was under the influence of the spell. Buffy certainly seems to think so, but I'm not sure if this is denial or not.

This could be true, but the spell also made them talk about their true feeling so Buffy should probably not say this to Spike lol.

Afterwards Spike just gets pushy, following Buffy around all the time on patrol and trying to form that connection again. Buffy dismisses him several times during Tabula Rasa and, especially, during Smashed.
Hounding somebody like this, who you know is in a vulnerablr state, is just plain wrong imo.

Yes, this I completely agree with.

Another thing, Spike is pursing Buffy out of love, this love doesn't go away when he gets his soul, it just gets refined, I think that's why many people have a harder time distinguishing between S6 and S7 Spike and his behavior, its not as clear cut as Angel/Angelus.

To me, soulless Spike is mostly pursuing Buffy out of obsession. There might have been love there, it is somewhat shown that many vampire can love. But its not healthy love. S7 was a different story. I agree that many don't see the difference. Personnaly I see a world's difference, their actions are very distinct. Even if they both do act the same on the surface, again like many other vampires.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Going back to the original question, whether Buffy was in a state of mind where she could give consent, I would say yes. Depression is not like being roofied - you still retain the ability to evaluate your situation and make decisions. Depression is not the same as sadness nor does being in a desperate state (having to drop out of university and take a job to pay the bills and being hit with unexpected expenses (the pipes in "Flooded")) necessarily have anything to do with depression, which is a medical condition that can be caused by lack of neurotransmitters in the nerves. Her main source of discomfort was that she had been pulled out of heaven and put back into the world, but this is not clinical depression. At no time was Buffy incapable of fighting - even the attempted rape failed because she fought him off.

For an example of complete inability to give consent, look at Warren and Katrina. To a lesser extent, Tara was not capable of understanding the situation and decided to end it after she became aware of the real circumstances - that her mind had been wiped by Willow.

Spike always had one thing going for him - better situational awareness than any of the Scoobies. He was the one who understood that Buffy and Angel could never just be friends, that Willow was getting close to going over the edge when Oz left and that the natives in "Pangs" were not going to accept apologies of any kind. It also enabled him to play the Scoobies against each other in "The Yoko Factor" and to show Riley at his worst with the vampire. Buffy's forays into the world of romance had been disastrous, but Spike was a known quantity. Aside from that, he had kept her secret from Glory at the cost of torture, sheltered Dawn and assisted the Scoobies in patrolling during the 148 days that she was dead, so it seemed that he was not following the path of most vampires.

Their relationship deteriorates into mutual abuse in Season 6 until Spike leaves. The fact that Buffy makes some unwise choices is not necessarily the effect of depression - people can do that without any mental impairment and she did take up with another vampire before.

 

[thetopher]

I'm sorry, but if you pursue somebody who's got mental problems, by definition their perceptions are distorted, their judgement is impaired, at least to a degree.

Spike knows this, he's known why Buffy feels the way she does before anybody else, yet he still chooses to go after her in this way. Before the kiss, its unclear- Buffy goes to Spike's crypt in 'Life Serial' and in 'OMWF', she feels comfortable with him. but as she notes he seems to be always around when she's miserable, which implies stalking to some extent, being around Buffy when she's alone.

After the first kiss he doesn't let up, he doesn't leave her alone and Buffy gives in when Giles leaves, feeling miserabele, much like an alcoholic would take a drink if they were weak and feeling miserable.
And in 'Smashed' he still pursues her, even though hse dismisses him, first politley and then with growing hostility. In the end Spike attacks her and they end up...🙁

If you pursue a clinically depressed person in this way, knowing about her condition, and knowing about her vulnerability, you are taking advantage.
Spike has enough moral awareness to know, on some level, what he is doing is wrong, he's perceptive after all, he knows how Buffy is feeling.

 

[Blaze]

I'm sorry, but if you pursue somebody who's got mental problems, by definition their perceptions are distorted, their judgement is impaired, at least to a degree.

This might be the case with Spike, but I'm trying to say that it's not the case with everyone. There is nothing wrong with dating someone with a mental problem (I'm speaking illnesses like bipolar disorder, depression, schizophrenia, not illness that renders someone completely incompetent in which case it'd be different)

Spike knows this, he's known why Buffy feels the way she does before anybody else, yet he still chooses to go after her in this way. Before the kiss, its unclear- Buffy goes to Spike's crypt in 'Life Serial' and in 'OMWF', she feels comfortable with him. but as she notes he seems to be always around when she's miserable, which implies stalking to some extent, being around Buffy when she's alone.

At this point and time I disagree about the stalking. In very early s6 and late s5, Spike has almost accepted that he won't be with Buffy. At this point Buffy is the one that goes to see him. He sees her when she's miserable because everytime she is she stops by his place. I can only think of a few moments where he's the one that goes to see her (like when he's behind the magick shop. But yes, she feels comfortable and it should have stayed that way.

After the first kiss he doesn't let up, he doesn't leave her alone and Buffy gives in when Giles leaves, feeling miserabele, much like an alcoholic would take a drink if they were weak and feeling miserable.

Yes, agreed, it was unhealthy.

And in 'Smashed' he still pursues her, even though hse dismisses him, first politley and then with growing hostility. In the end Spike attacks her and they end up...🙁

To be fair Spike is trying to kill her at first, no bang her. He's doing what any other vampire would do. I don't mind "Smashed" because it shows that Buffy is sleeping with a beast, yet people still like to say that Spike is special and doesn't act like other vampires. To me this is so inaccurate, Spike was evil. What he was doing was the actions of someone that is not human.

If you pursue a clinically depressed person in this way, knowing about her condition, and knowing about her vulnerability, you are taking advantage.

I agree. You're taking advantage if you're pushing yourself onto the person. If you are pursuing the person with good intentions and are not trying to take advantage of the vulnerability, it'd be different. Spike was taking advantage of Buffy no matter what, which was not okay. But for the first kiss in OMWF, Spike did not force Buffy, the issue came when he became pushy after it.

Spike has enough moral awareness to know, on some level, what he is doing is wrong, he's perceptive after all, he knows how Buffy is feeling.

But he doesn't. I've yet to hear a good argument on here that Spike truly has good moral awareness. He was conditioned with the chip, like a puppy, that never changed his nature of being a vampire. Yes, he's extremely perceptive, but that does not make him moral.

 

[Kana]

I think the issue we should look at is mental health vs personal responsibility and one's behaviour.

In regards to depression, it varies for different people going from completely debilitating to allowing an individual to make reasonably rational choices.

I do find it difficult to judge Buffy, but she does deem herself as responsible for her actions and she seemed to know what she was doing when she engaged in her relationship with Spike.

We also have to take in account that she wasn't a victim, at least not totally. She was on some level consciously using Spike to escape the life.

As for Spike? Did he know what he was doing? Yes, but as I've always said, I find it difficult judge any soulless vampire. In his case, it's not so much that he lacks the capacity to understand morality, it's more that he's unsure of where he lies within the moral spectrum. They're fight in Smashed details the problems they both face in the way of morality and personal identity.

The thing about vampires is that they are human/demon hybrids so it makes sense that Buffy could feel some sort of connection to Spike. Not only that, he's an outsider in terms of the Scoobies social group, so it makes it easier for Buffy to be able to confide in him.

The fact that she thought she came back wrong also highlights a few issues. On some level she was behaving the way she was because she told herself, "it wasn't really her". However when she discovers the truth, she feels fully responsible for her behaviour.

For the record, I'm not dismissing her depression, but I don't see the situation as simply as: "Spike took advantage of a mentally impaired victim". There are more factors to consider here.

 

[thetopher]

This might be the case with Spike, but I'm trying to say that it's not the case with everyone. There is nothing wrong with dating someone with a mental problem (I'm speaking illnesses like bipolar disorder, depression, schizophrenia, not illness that renders someone completely incompetent in which case it'd be different)



At this point and time I disagree about the stalking. In very early s6 and late s5, Spike has almost accepted that he won't be with Buffy. At this point Buffy is the one that goes to see him. He sees her when she's miserable because everytime she is she stops by his place. I can only think of a few moments where he's the one that goes to see her (like when he's behind the magick shop. But yes, she feels comfortable and it should have stayed that way.



Yes, agreed, it was unhealthy.



To be fair Spike is trying to kill her at first, no bang her. He's doing what any other vampire would do. I don't mind "Smashed" because it shows that Buffy is sleeping with a beast, yet people still like to say that Spike is special and doesn't act like other vampires. To me this is so inaccurate, Spike was evil. What he was doing was the actions of someone that is not human.



I agree. You're taking advantage if you're pushing yourself onto the person. If you are pursuing the person with good intentions and are not trying to take advantage of the vulnerability, it'd be different. Spike was taking advantage of Buffy no matter what, which was not okay. But for the first kiss in OMWF, Spike did not force Buffy, the issue came when he became pushy after it.



But he doesn't. I've yet to hear a good argument on here that Spike truly has good moral awareness. He was conditioned with the chip, like a puppy, that never changed his nature of being a vampire. Yes, he's extremely perceptive, but that does not make him moral.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with dating/having a relationship with somebody with mental problems- there should be no stigma there, everybody needs and deserves love. Agreed. 🙂

You may be right about Spike not stalking Buffy, I can't remember much of him doing that before Tabula Rasa, Buffy was going to him more often than not.

Having rewatched the fight scene in 'Smashed' I'm not sure Spike is trying to kill her, he says he wasn't planning on hurting Buffy, much. Which, I guess could imply killing Buffy quickly, but I took it to mean he was trying to show Buffy that she was wrong about Spike being 'whipped' and that their relationship had changed because of it. In his own, twisted, way of course.

"I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man." -The Gift.

That to me, shows Spike has some moral self-awareness. No other vampire has ever shown this sort of introspection in regards to their demonic nature (except maybe pregnant Darla, and of course Angel.).
Self-reflection implies some moral judgement, which is why I think Spike's behaviour is worse than say, Angelus. Angelus is evil, does what comes naturally to him, but he never analyses his own actions and puts them in some sort of moral context, he simply revels in them. As does Spike pre-chip.
Look at Spike trying to bite that girl (again in 'Smashed') he's talking himself up, hesitating, on some level he knows that killing is wrong- but he tries anyway and the chip goes off, the intent to harm is there.

At the end of the day, that's my problem with S6 Spike, his moral compass goes back and forth depending on who's writing him. Look at his confusion at the end of 'Seeing Red', he knows he shouldn't have attacked Buffy, but he also wonders why he stopped. It's pretty twisted. 🙁

 

[Xin Rong]

I think the significant issue here is that Buffy is not someone who is suffering from a long term mental illness, like Bipolar, schizophrenia, or chronic depression, and as such discussions pertaining to these types of illnesses are somewhat mute in the context of this discussion.

That being said, if she was then I would say that the illness she has becomes part of who she is, and therefore she is more qualified to give consent, but when she's under the temporary thrall of a mental ailment, then the appropriate thing would be to help her through that period, so that she regains a semblance of mental stability, and as such her consent becomes valid. Spike does not do this, and he's a bad person for doing so, but let's be honest, at this point Spike is a bad person, a chip doesn't change that, he is and always will have been evil without his soul.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I still haven't seen any proof that Buffy is mentally ill or impaired in any way in Season 6. Anyone who had to take over running a household, paying the bills when most of the money is gone and raising a teenage girl (Dawn) after their mother had died with no other family around is going to feel overwhelmed. Add the differentiation that she is the slayer and has to face danger constantly plus the fact that she was once safely dead and beyond all those worries again is not in the DSM:

http://www.psychiatry.org/dsm5

(Note that Aspergers Syndrome has been deleted from the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that is the psychiatric Bible.)

There was no doubt that Buffy's catatonic state in "The Weight of the World" before she died fighting Glory was a genuine mental illness, but it was not permanent. I am always suspicious of psychiatric diagnoses because they are usually just names made from the salient symptoms with no understanding of the underlying causes. Attention Deficit Disorder is the most overdiagnosed and overmedicated non-existent psychiatric problem in existence. I have seen medication turn these people literally into drooling idiots. Yet there are many people who have achieved remission when food dyes and additives are removed from the diet. It would be like a physician saying you had Sore Throat Disease and not differentiating between bronchitis and anthrax.

Everyone has a mental condition just as everyone has a physical condition. There is no yes/no answer to the question of whether you have a good mental condition other than how you react to mental stresses. It is a sliding scale with dependence on other factors, just like saying someone is overweight and it not mattering unless it leads to diabetes or other problems.

Buffy is fully capable of making her own choices in Season 6. She shows no sign of mental impairment, even though her choices may not be optimum. But then if everyone made optimal choices, you couldn't construct a drama around it, could you?

 

[Xin Rong]

Just to be clear, are you saying that Buffy isn't suffering from depression in Season 6?

 

[thetopher]

I still haven't seen any proof that Buffy is mentally ill or impaired in any way in Season 6. Anyone who had to take over running a household, paying the bills when most of the money is gone and raising a teenage girl (Dawn) after their mother had died with no other family around is going to feel overwhelmed. Add the differentiation that she is the slayer and has to face danger constantly plus the fact that she was once safely dead and beyond all those worries again is not in the DSM:

http://www.psychiatry.org/dsm5

(Note that Aspergers Syndrome has been deleted from the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that is the psychiatric Bible.)

There was no doubt that Buffy's catatonic state in "The Weight of the World" before she died fighting Glory was a genuine mental illness, but it was not permanent. I am always suspicious of psychiatric diagnoses because they are usually just names made from the salient symptoms with no understanding of the underlying causes. Attention Deficit Disorder is the most overdiagnosed and overmedicated non-existent psychiatric problem in existence. I have seen medication turn these people literally into drooling idiots. Yet there are many people who have achieved remission when food dyes and additives are removed from the diet. It would be like a physician saying you had Sore Throat Disease and not differentiating between bronchitis and anthrax.

Everyone has a mental condition just as everyone has a physical condition. There is no yes/no answer to the question of whether you have a good mental condition other than how you react to mental stresses. It is a sliding scale with dependence on other factors, just like saying someone is overweight and it not mattering unless it leads to diabetes or other problems.

Buffy is fully capable of making her own choices in Season 6. She shows no sign of mental impairment, even though her choices may not be optimum. But then if everyone made optimal choices, you couldn't construct a drama around it, could you?

Some mental illnesses are notoriously tricky to diagnose, others don't have a root cause in circumstances, they can be genetic and not caused by some outside influence.

Buffy certainly seems to believe there's something wrong with her, she's unable to face her friends, take interest in their lives, she breaks down weeping in front of Tara, is listless, distracted and unfocused. Unengaged with any of her friends lives.
If she's not depressed then I've got at least one friend who's been seriously misdiagnosed, because I sure recognise those symptoms.

To be honest I don't know how the writer's could've been clearer that Buffy was depressed and acting completely out of character, short of having some therapist come in and diagnose Buffy officially. (All the other characters problems come from existing character faults that were there long before S6.)
Plus, you have to remember that Willow and Tara helped Buffy run the household, they helped take care of Dawn.
Plus housewives (or husbands 🙂) can be clinically depressed and still look after the home, that's why so many are overly medicated.

 

[ladydorotea]

I believe the main point ( of depression discussion) is not in 'how accurate' the show managed to portray a major case of clinical depression on screen, but in the fact that it was the device behind the season 6 plot as admitted by the writers, and by Joss himself.

Comics SPOILER below !

In fact as recent as the issue 8.40 of the comics Whedon writes a line for Buffy in her introduction of her life in SanFran as a coffee waitress. The line is 'I am not clinically depressed'. And then there follows the S9 with its fake ( !robot) pregnancy plot and yada - during which period of time Buffy gets a hair close to absconding with Spike (obviously *not* to pursue abstinence) and the supposed 'baby' - only to pull back at the last moment after realizing just how miserable this life is going to be for her. I was scratching my head over the 'not clinically depressed' line back in S8 until the issue 9.10 came out and it finally hit me *why* the line was there. She would no longer engage in a sexual relationship with Spike out of misery - because she is not clinically depressed in S9.

 

[Kean]

You can be clinically depressed and function as a person in the world. I did it for ten years, and still managed to work, have friends and get a degree and a masters. What it does mean is that you function with immense difficulty, pain and anxiety. It makes life harder, but it doesn't diminish your ability to consent. Buffy knew she was making an unhealthy call when she slept with Spike. In fact, that is probably why she did it. She needed to do something to justify her feeling as bad as she felt.

 

[FuzzyHandcuffs]

I'm a little bit deeper into Season 6 than I was yesterday (I've been binge watching all week, don't judge, last time we talked I wasn't even finished with season 5, now I'm on Wrecked.) and I agree with a lot of you that I think Buffy is desperately depressed after being yanked from her happy place that she went to after she died. She partly blames the Scoobies (rightfully so, also, Buffy has to understand that they though since she jumped into a freaking HELL PORTAL, her friends assumed she was some where hell-ish.) and just goes about sulking and Spike is what she says, convenient, too a certain extent. He is completely in love with her (now, I know I'm only on season 6 episode 10, so once I write this I probably won't read anyone else's response unless they directly quote me.) and has wanted this to happen for a long time. Buffy is venerable and in some ways extremely lost.

If it was Angel who had walked in and swept her off her feet again after she came back to life, this would be a different story, but honestly far less interesting and a lot more predictable. I love Spike. I think he's a valuable part of Buffy's backbone, but he is not right for Buffy and he will never live up to Angel, ever.

Now, spoil away, but if you want me to respond, please direct quote me and I'll scroll past the ones who don't! I'm going to carry on my binge watching!

 

[thetopher]

I'm a little bit deeper into Season 6 than I was yesterday (I've been binge watching all week, don't judge, last time we talked I wasn't even finished with season 5, now I'm on Wrecked.) and I agree with a lot of you that I think Buffy is desperately depressed after being yanked from her happy place that she went to after she died. She partly blames the Scoobies (rightfully so, also, Buffy has to understand that they though since she jumped into a freaking HELL PORTAL, her friends assumed she was some where hell-ish.) and just goes about sulking and Spike is what she says, convenient, too a certain extent. He is completely in love with her (now, I know I'm only on season 6 episode 10, so once I write this I probably won't read anyone else's response unless they directly quote me.) and has wanted this to happen for a long time. Buffy is venerable and in some ways extremely lost.

If it was Angel who had walked in and swept her off her feet again after she came back to life, this would be a different story, but honestly far less interesting and a lot more predictable. I love Spike. I think he's a valuable part of Buffy's backbone, but he is not right for Buffy and he will never live up to Angel, ever.

Now, spoil away, but if you want me to respond, please direct quote me and I'll scroll past the ones who don't! I'm going to carry on my binge watching!

To be honest, its hard to judge the whole Buffy/Spike relationship thing until the end of Season 7. It does take on a whole new dimension by then.
Happy watching though.

And I totally agree, Spike is all wrong for Buffy, imo.

 

[white avenger]

As I have said before, I no longer defend either Spike or Spuffy, but I would like to ask if this has ever been actually established one way or the other.

Does Spike, as of Season 6, have any actual experience with, or even concept of, a normal romantic human relationship? From what we saw of William, I find this highly unlikely. Anything that he might have learned from Dru would have been strange an the least, and downright twisted at the worst.

 

[RoxySilver]

Apparently, Spike was always desperately in love.
Cecily didn't share his feelings and he was mocked, if not bullied, for loving her and being who he was.
His dysfunctional relationship with his mother probably didn't help him to built a good self esteem.
Spike was actually always in relationships where he loved passionately, without borders or conditions. He even says so "I'm love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it". I even think that despite his power, sexiness and skills, he always felt inferior to the women that surrounded him, and he put them on a pedestal (well, except for Harmony, but he didn't love her).
Being with Buffy was a dream come true for him, even though he always knew that she wouldn't return his feelings.

He never experienced a balanced, healthy relationship, until he understood he could be a rock for Buffy, and not the monster that hurt her anymore.

 

[thetopher]

I have to say I don't see any particular evidence in S6 that Spike knew Buffy would never love him. That's why he was always trying to make that connection with her, draw her down to his level. He thought, if only she could accept what she is, then she could be happy with me. Completely not understanding Buffy's mental state. 🙁

Spike didn't get the whole self-loathing thing that Buffy was experiencing all through their relationship until after he got a soul. Which is why, as I was saying, you can't judge Spuffy accurately until the end of S7.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

As I have said before, I no longer defend either Spike or Spuffy, but I would like to ask if this has ever been actually established one way or the other.

Does Spike, as of Season 6, have any actual experience with, or even concept of, a normal romantic human relationship? From what we saw of William, I find this highly unlikely. Anything that he might have learned from Dru would have been strange an the least, and downright twisted at the worst.

What's your point?
Are you talking about William before he was turned?

We could say the same thing about Liam, a drunken shag does not a relationship make, and Darla/Angelus was just as twisted as Spike/Dru. But Angel turned out okay, he was able to love Buffy/interact with her normally.
Vampires are partly formed by the memories of their 'hosts', the people they used to be. Which is why William is the way he is.

I mean, Spike was good enough at reading people, praying upon their insecuritires when he was evil (see 'The Yoko Factor', most of his interactions with Buffy when he was trying to get in her pants, etc.) so he had some concept of human relationships.
I just think when it came to his own heart, he was fairly clueless.

But then a lot of people are.