Buffy and Leadership

[Taake]

Mentioned in this thread; https://www.buffy-boards.com/threads/happy-birthday-buffy.64054/

I thought this article deserved a thread of its own as it boldly proclaims
"Why Buffy Is Still the Best Show About Leadership Ever"
http://www.inc.com/leigh-buchanan/still-the-best-tv-show-about-leadership-ever.html?cid=readmore

It discusses things like acknowledging your authority, getting used to sacrifice and embracing your humanity and it's a decent but brief article. Now we've talked a lot about Buffy's leadership, especially come season 7 so I thought these bits were of particular interest;

Acknowledging your authority is realism, not arrogance. In-between monster eruptions, Buffy and her friends hang out as equals. But in crisis, parity evaporates. The Slayer issues terse commands, often some version of “stay out of my way.”


Toward the end of the series, some have begun to question her leadership. Anya, a former vengence demon turned ally, points out that Buffy didn’t earn her powers but was given them. “That doesn’t make you better than us,” she says. “It makes you luckier than us.” But Buffy knows that she alone can save the world, and walks away rather than surrender to shared leadership. Ultimately, she is proved right.


Sacrifice is necessary. So get better at it.
By the final season, though, Buffy recognizes that, as a leader, she must not only discount her own suffering when making decisions but also take that suffering in stride. Giles suggests that, faced again with the choice between saving Dawn and the world, “You’d let her die.” Buffy responds quietly: “If I had to.”

I agree that she has learned something about sacrifice in that she is now prepared to sacrifice Dawn... though thinking about it I'm not sure how exactly Buffy has reached this point in her leadership. It rings a little bitter to me, like a hang over from her depression maybe...it just doesn't feel like she's in that place where she was when she sacrificed Angel because it was needed. It feels... cold somehow.

As for the whole "ultimately, she is proved right" I kind of feel like Buffy is proved right because it is Buffy's show. Not necessarily because she's a brilliant leader at this point.

What do you guys think?

 

[EVIL UU]

Buffy as an example of a good leader? What's next, Buffy giving relationship advice? Bollocks, all of it!

But Buffy knows that she alone can save the world

Well, this is nonsense. Not only Buffy cannot save the world alone, as seen evidently in "Prophecy Girl" and "Primeval" for example, she can't even survive past the 3rd episode! There's a person who actually saved the world alone once in BtVS but that wasn't Buffy - it was Xander in "Grave". "Chosen" is no different. Willow's spell, Spike's sacrifice, Angel's peroxide-cleansing amulet are arguably as important, if not more, as Buffy's contribution.

Buffy and her friends hang out as equals. But in crisis, parity evaporates. The Slayer issues terse commands, often some version of “stay out of my way.”

That's not true. It's something that Buffy believes in, that she is better than everybody else but the gang offen tests that theory like in "Amends", "Fear Itself" and "The Yoko Factor". Also, it's not like Buffy never follows a plan conceived by somebody else - check out "Innocence" or "Hush". Sometimes she's not the leader at all, even if you ignore all the instances when Buffy's dead, away, insane etc. there are still episodes like "I Only Have Eyes for You" where Willow leads the gang and Buffy follows.

What do you guys think?

I think that Buffy too often allows her emotions and personal issues to color her judgment and impact her decisions. This alone makes her a terrible leader, also there are times when Buffy's egomania and obsession with power become more important than the issues at hand. All this drama in "Empty Places" - it's unnecessary. "You don't want to go? OK, I'll do it myself. Everybody who wants to help me - meet me in front of the house in 15 minutes". There, problem solved. Also, Buffy takes her friends for granted. I don't think that she realizes just how unbelievably lucky she is to have them and how much they sacrifice. What do they receive in exchange anyway? This is why, I think, she's very reckless with their safety. That is not a viable long-term strategy nor good leadership.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, the 'ultimately she's proved right' thing from 'Empty Places' is rubbish. Buffy is proved right JUST because it was her show and not Faith's. Buffy's plan as she stated it, and the rational behind her reasoning, was laughable, vague and pointed to extremely poor leadership during this season. Saying that 'it all worked out in her favour' has never been a strong argument for her behaviour.

But in general Buffy can be a good leader. She has her off days (oi, does she) but on her good days she realises that she and her friends have a symbiosis- they follow her because she can be brave, decisive and insightful and she needs them to survive as long as she had.
That's a good message to take away from the show and I'm not entirely convinced that this article realises that.

 

[EVIL UU]

That's not true. It's something that Buffy believes in, that she is better than everybody else but the gang offen tests that theory like in "Amends"

Damn, I meant "Revelations", not "Amends".

 

[Skanky Vamp]

There's a person who actually saved the world alone once in BtVS but that wasn't Buffy - it was Xander in "Grave".

Incorrect, Xander would have been flayed if not for Willow stealing Giles 'tainted' magic. It was only because Giles and the coven slipped her the magical equivalent of a roofie that he made any headway. Xander saved the world, but not alone.

 

[EVIL UU]

Incorrect, Xander would have been flayed if not for Willow stealing Giles 'tainted' magic. It was only because Giles and the coven slipped her the magical equivalent of a roofie that he made any headway. Xander saved the world, but not alone.

There's no apocalypse without Giles' magic. Willow's decision to fry the planet is a consequence of being handed a truckload of British dope.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

There's no apocalypse without Giles' magic. Willow's decision to fry the planet is a consequence of being handed a truckload of British dope.

I thought it was from absorbing the information from those books? That's what dyed her hair and made her go all veiny.. if I recall correctly.

 

[white avenger]

Yeah, the 'ultimately she's proved right' thing from 'Empty Places' is rubbish. Buffy is proved right JUST because it was her show and not Faith's. Buffy's plan as she stated it, and the rational behind her reasoning, was laughable, vague and pointed to extremely poor leadership during this season. Saying that 'it all worked out in her favour' has never been a strong argument for her behavior.

I find it hard to fully accept this, because we never actually knew any details of Buffy's plan to return to the vineyard. I seriously doubt that she intended another blind frontal assault, given what had happened the first time. It's easy to say that Buffy was totally nuts for even suggesting such a thing, but, without actually knowing the details of her plan, it's anybody's guess as to how well it would have worked out.

As for her being proven right in the end, simply because it was her show, well, certainly that contributed to it, but just as important was the fact that we're speaking, not just the Season finale, but the, as far as we knew at that time, the last time that we would ever see Buffy. Personally, I would have felt disappointed, and more than a little bit robbed, if she had gone out as anything other than victorious.

 

[bespangeled]

That which is in the show actually is canon. So 'it did work out" is more than a good prediction - it's a statement of fact.

But what you think, wish, know what really happened - that is head canon.

A lot of people have head canon about why canon should not have worked - that makes for good stories. But Buffy isn't perfect and she never was. What happened is what happened, and Spike helped Buffy get the courage enough to try again. I like the ending. At season 5 Buffy died - at Season 7 Buffy triumphed.

 

[thetopher]

I'm sorry but the fact that something 'worked out for the best' is never a good justification on it's own. That's just poor writing and can be argued as such.
Using such arguments upends entire discussions, like say:

Connor turned out okay so I guess Wesely was right to abduct him then.

Or you can flip it and say if something ended badly in the end then it was a wrong desicion:

Angel did a wrong thing by bringing Fred back from Pylea because she ended up getting utterly consumed by an Old One (apparently).

On its own it seems like lazy justification to support a character's decision.

I find it hard to fully accept this, because we never actually knew any details of Buffy's plan to return to the vineyard. I seriously doubt that she intended another blind frontal assault, given what had happened the first time. It's easy to say that Buffy was totally nuts for even suggesting such a thing, but, without actually knowing the details of her plan, it's anybody's guess as to how well it would have worked out.

I heard Buffy's explanation about 'why the vinyard is so important' and that was damn near shaky enough for me to doubt her overall frame of mind. She's ready to go back up against a guy who effortlessly beat her, Spike and Faith with no more knowledge about who he is, what he wants or anything like that. This hasn't been the way Buffy has acted in the past, she's always gathered more info on a big bad guy before deliberately facing them (if she had a choice about it that is)
.

 

[The Bronze]

I think on balance you have to say Buffy does very well in a leadership role. That's not to say she's a perfect example or anything because she's not but I think these positives should be taken into account.

1. She leads by example. I think this should always be kept in mind when deciding if she was any good as a leader or not. She wasn't sat behind a desk giving orders, she had to live and die by her decisions. As well as being leader she had to do the grunt work, not many leaders are prepared to do that. In fact when the **** hits the fan she is actually prepared to die for the cause, repeatedly.

2. People are willing to follow her. Buffy is handing out no money whatsoever and yet numerous people are willing to follow her over the years. Obviously she must treat these people well enough and they believe in her ability to get the job done. This includes Willow who after a certain point has greater power than Buffy but will more often than not follow her lead.

3. She's not afraid to listen to other peoples ideas and use their expertise, giving credit where it's due. She's followed plans from Giles, Willow and Xander before and delegates duties well for the most part.

4. Buffy is capable of thinking massive and well outside of the box to get the job done. Using the Scythe to activate the potentials rather than just to slice and dice is something I can't imagine anyone else coming up with.

 

[white avenger]

I heard Buffy's explanation about 'why the vineyard is so important' and that was damn near shaky enough for me to doubt her overall frame of mind. She's ready to go back up against a guy who effortlessly beat her, Spike and Faith with no more knowledge about who he is, what he wants or anything like that. This hasn't been the way Buffy has acted in the past, she's always gathered more info on a big bad guy before deliberately facing them (if she had a choice about it that is)
.

Buffy's logic about Caleb being in the vineyard because there was something there to be guarded makes perfect sense to me, and did even before we knew that the Scythe was there. Why else would he be there?

And Caleb didn't effortlessly beat Buffy, Spike, and Faith. He beat Buffy, then he beat Spike, then he beat Faith. If the three of them individually couldn't beat them, that doesn't mean that a coordinated attack by all three simultaneously wouldn't have worked, just like a pack of wolves can bring down a bull moose, even though the moose is far stronger and more dangerous than any single wolf. Working as a team, the three of them could have kept up a constant attack, never letting Caleb have time to do any real damage to one before one of the others was attacking from behind. Powerful as Caleb might have been, he only had two eyes, two hands and two feet. He couldn't possibly deal with three super powered fighters at one time. (And I know that this is one of those things that we only learned after the fact, but Caleb was neither as fast or as agile as Buffy, so a strike and dodge strategy would have worked, at least long enough to find out what he was there guarding)

And as for the bringers, while all that was going on, there were a group of Potentials, a witch, a Watcher, and a high school principal who should have been able to at least hold them off while Caleb was being taken down.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I'd say that in terms of leadership, Buffy has her good days and bad days. When she actually collaborates with her friends, allowing them input, they are a force to be reckoned with. In season seven though, things seem to just work out for her despite the fact that she acted like a lunatic. She's just extremely lucky that Wolfram and Hart wanted to get the First Evil out of the picture* and that Caleb was dumb enough to give away the location of the weapon that ended up killing him. Hell, her one major contribution (empowering the Slayers) ultimately proved incidental in defeating the First, and actually caused more harm than good if Dana is any indication.

*I'm convinced that Wolfram and Hart would have found some way to bump off the First whether Buffy was involved or not. The amulet was just the most convenient way to get Angel in their clutches, killing two birds with one stone.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy's logic about Caleb being in the vineyard because there was something there to be guarded makes perfect sense to me, and did even before we knew that the Scythe was there. Why else would he be there?

When Buffy says 'the bad guys always go where the power is' my first thought was 'where's precedent for this on the show?

The Master was trapped in that church, Spike picked that factory pretty muc because that's where the Anointed one was holed up in. Angelus got the mansion because it had a nice, gothic vibe...The list goes on- bad guys on the show pick their secret lairs for any number of reasons.
Comfort? That was Glory's criteria.
Space to store all your geek stuff? That was the Trio's main concern.
The only one Buffy could possible refering to was Adam and his hidden lab with all his demon-building equipment, and even then that's stretch.

In other words, judging from Buffy's own experience, she's simply guessing about why Caleb is at the vineyard (maybe it has nice wine? Is easily defenceable? Has lots of secret escape tunnels leading all over Sunnydale? All of these explainations make just as much sense as her guess).

Her theory has no foundation in past behaviour- just like any of her other suggestions in that little speech.

And Caleb didn't effortlessly beat Buffy, Spike, and Faith. He beat Buffy, then he beat Spike, then he beat Faith.

Buffy- one punch, Spike- three hits after shrugging off a roundhouse to the face. Faith lasted a little longer because a) she was well- armed and b) Caleb was toying with her somewhat while he was showing off. (c- Faith is just that awesome)
If they had all attacked him at once then Caleb wouldn't even have bothered toying with them at all- he just would've cut loose.

If the three of them individually couldn't beat them, that doesn't mean that a coordinated attack by all three simultaneously wouldn't have worked, just like a pack of wolves can bring down a bull moose, even though the moose is far stronger and more dangerous than any single wolf. Working as a team, the three of them could have kept up a constant attack, never letting Caleb have time to do any real damage to one before one of the others was attacking from behind.

Okay, but Buffy, Spike and Faith haven't exactly worked at a team before against a single target. A pack of wolves have instinct and co-ordination to take down a larger prey that those three currently lack. They would need some time to practice, and Buffy's acts like her plan needs to happen right the hell now.

Also, even if they did coordinate Caleb would have no reason to hold back with them (like he kept doing with Buffy)- he would just lash out with the same brutality that cost Xander his eye. That would likely lead to one or more of them being very dead/brutally beaten unconcious before the fight is over.

Powerful as Caleb might have been, he only had two eyes, two hands and two feet. He couldn't possibly deal with three super powered fighters at one time. (And I know that this is one of those things that we only learned after the fact, but Caleb was neither as fast or as agile as Buffy, so a strike and dodge strategy would have worked, at least long enough to find out what he was there guarding)

One small thing though- how do they go about killng Caleb?

At this point they know nothing about him- whether he's a demon, immortal, some sort of mage or something else, so how do they kill him? H's incredibly tough and stronger than any of them.
None of them have convienient access to an ancient magical weapon that imbues its weilder with extra strength/power? So Buffy's plan would be for all three of them to pile on Caleb and just hope they could somehow overcome him?

Buffy had to kill the bastard twice in the end. She had to chop him in half (length-ways) with a magical weapon- without the scythe I don't see that fight ending well for the good guys, and all the while the best fighters are busy so the Bringers can swarm the rest of them and make short work of them.

Anyway you look at it Buffy's eagerness to go in again with NO new information to guide their actions after what they'd all experienced was foolhardy. She should've waited until they had some confirming intelligence to back up her gut feeling- but then you know what they say about hindsight...

 

[bespangeled]

I'm sorry but the fact that something 'worked out for the best' is never a good justification on it's own. That's just poor writing and can be argued as such.
Using such arguments upends entire discussions, like say:

Connor turned out okay so I guess Wesely was right to abduct him then.

Or you can flip it and say if something ended badly in the end then it was a wrong desicion:

Angel did a wrong thing by bringing Fred back from Pylea because she ended up getting utterly consumed by an Old One (apparently).

On its own it seems like lazy justification to support a character's decision.



I heard Buffy's explanation about 'why the vinyard is so important' and that was damn near shaky enough for me to doubt her overall frame of mind. She's ready to go back up against a guy who effortlessly beat her, Spike and Faith with no more knowledge about who he is, what he wants or anything like that. This hasn't been the way Buffy has acted in the past, she's always gathered more info on a big bad guy before deliberately facing them (if she had a choice about it that is)
.

Of course it's justification on it's own. You may not like the writing or the story but that has no effect on the story itself.
People would prefer it didn't happen, or didn't happen that way. That's fine, but it did happen that way. And deciding to go Doylist really is not critiquing the story - it's critiquing the production people from Joss on down. That's fine - no issue - just sayin.

The other examples don't have the direct cause and effect we're discussing here. 
Where the power is:
The season one big bad - the Master - his minions were where the power was. Spike arrived at the center of Aurelius power and took over. Again his minions were where the power was. Angelus went to where the power was (which is still where the minions are) So here are three cases of the bad guys (minions) congregating where the power is (Master, Spike, Dru, Angelus). The mayor was - the Mayor, His people guarded the power. The entire Initiative guarded the power - with some small groups leaving to patrol and gather subjects to be brought to the Initiative. Glory couldn't find what she wanted, but her minions all gathered to protect her - she was the power as most villains are here.

In each case the power was the Big Bad - and in each case they had to go to the big bad to fight it. Caleb was at the vineyard, as were all his minions. Buffy had discovered that he was holding something. How exactly could they gather the needed information without some sort of reconnaissance? As it happened Buffy decided to go on her own - while Faith took her new troops into a trap. A lot of what happened really wasn't Buffy's fault - there were others in charge making bad decisions.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy- one punch, Spike- three hits Faith lasted a little longer

If they had all attacked him at once then Caleb wouldn't even have bothered toying with them at all- he just would've cut loose.



They would need some time to practice, and Buffy's acts like her plan needs to happen right the hell now.

Also, even if they did coordinate Caleb would have no reason to hold back with them (like he kept doing with Buffy)- he would just lash out with the same brutality that cost Xander his eye. That would likely lead to one or more of them being very dead/brutally beaten unconscious before the fight is over.



One small thing though- how do they go about killing Caleb?

At this point they know nothing about him- whether he's a demon, immortal, some sort of mage or something else, so how do they kill him? H's incredibly tough and stronger than any of them.

None of them have convenient access to an ancient magical weapon that imbues its wielder with extra strength/power? So Buffy's plan would be for all three of them to pile on Caleb and just hope they could somehow overcome him?

Buffy had to kill the bastard twice in the end. She had to chop him in half (length-ways) with a magical weapon- without the scythe I don't see that fight ending well for the good guys, and all the while the best fighters are busy so the Bringers can swarm the rest of them and make short work of them.

Anyway you look at it Buffy's eagerness to go in again with NO new information to guide their actions after what they'd all experienced was foolhardy. She should've waited until they had some confirming intelligence to back up her gut feeling- but then you know what they say about hindsight...

"Buffy- one punch, Spike- three hits Faith lasted a little longer " All three were taken by surprise by an enemy who they had completely underestimated. I seriously doubt that that would happen a second time. That's where strategy comes in. If someone can take you out with one punch, don't let them land that one punch.

A pack of wolves doesn't all pile on a moose until they have brought it down. One darts in, inflicts one injury, even a small one, then darts back out. The moose turns to attack that wolf, another attacks from behind again. The process continues until the moose, exhausted and weak from lack of blood, goes down. THEN the whole pack piles on, and not before. The moose never gets the opportunity to "cut loose," because he never has time to attack one wolf before another one is attacking from the rear.

"Buffy, Spike and Faith haven't exactly worked at a team before against a single target." No, but Buffy has teamed with both of them, so she is familiar with both of their fighting styles. Besides which, this isn't a terribly complex strategy. It's basically, "He starts to hit me, you hit him. He starts to hit you, I hit him."


"how do they go about killing Caleb?" My first thought would be decapitation. He might survive with his head removed, but I seriously doubt that he would be all that formidable.

"She should've waited until they had some confirming intelligence to back up her gut feeling- but then you know what they say about hindsight..." I don't recall Buffy saying exactly when she planned to return to the vineyard, but I'm certain that she wouldn't have gone without Spike, so they had all day to gather whatever information that they might need, accumulate weapons, and prepare Giles and Wood to lead the Potentials in a diversionary attack to lead the Bringers away.


"None of them have convenient access to an ancient magical weapon that imbues its wielder with extra strength/power?" No, but they did have Buffy's rocket launcher. Might not be magic, but it packs plenty of power.

We can argue back and forth about this one specific scenario til the Hellmouth freezes over, but it doesn't change the fact that, without knowing the specifics of Buffy's plan, there is no way that it can fairly be judged to be either brilliant or foolhardy. And as far as "gut feelings" go, field officers have been acting them throughout the history of warfare. No, they aren't always correct, but Buffy had been acting on hers quite often for seven years, and her gut had been right far more times than wrong.

 

[thetopher]

Of course it's justification on it's own. You may not like the writing or the story but that has no effect on the story itself.

If you want to argue like this- that its okay because its written that way- then that's fine I guess, it just doesn't go anywhere.

Every character does things for one simple reason- the writers wrote it that way. End of story, nothing more to discuss. 🙄

The season one big bad - the Master - his minions were where the power was. Spike arrived at the center of Aurelius power and took over. Again his minions were where the power was. Angelus went to where the power was (which is still where the minions are) So here are three cases of the bad guys (minions) congregating where the power is (Master, Spike, Dru, Angelus). The mayor was - the Mayor, His people guarded the power.

The Master was TRAPPED in the church- it was his prison and nothing more. The rest in nonsense- they were just place the bad guys picked for whatever reason. There was no inherent power in those places.

The only person this could apply to was Adam- the rest is just rationisation for Buffy's 'revelation'.

In each case the power was the Big Bad - and in each case they had to go to the big bad to fight it. Caleb was at the vineyard, as were all his minions. Buffy had discovered that he was holding something.

Yes, because Caleb TOLD her that he had something at the vineyard and it turned out that Buffy walked into a trap. There was no reason to suspect that there was actually anything there. It's just lucky that it turned out Caleb was so dumb and that he did have something to hide.

A pack of wolves doesn't all pile on a moose until they have brought it down. One darts in, inflicts one injury, even a small one, then darts back out. The moose turns to attack that wolf, another attacks from behind again. The process continues until the moose, exhausted and weak from lack of blood, goes down. THEN the whole pack piles on, and not before. The moose never gets the opportunity to "cut loose," because he never has time to attack one wolf before another one is attacking from the rear.

Wolves. Have. Instinct.
They work as a team/pack from a young age. We never saw Buffy and Spike work as a tag-team during any sort of fight. Buffy and Faith haven't fought side by side in years. They may very well get in each others way- and all the while Caleb is lashing out with all he's got. I don't see it ending well at all.

My first thought would be decapitation. He might survive with his head removed, but I seriously doubt that he would be all that formidable.

Good luck chopping off his head with any old weapon- he looked pretty tough to me.
And if that didn't work (as in 'we aren't actually able to chop off his head', or whatever because we don't know what he is- he could've been invulnerable like the Mayor for all they know) then they're screwed because they still don't know what they're facing because Buffy didn't do her research- and now their dead.

When the stakes are this high you don't take chances like this based on nothing more than supposition- it's that simple.

 

[bespangeled]

I'm not saying it was written that way - I am saying that from inside the story - this is what occurred. You are the one complaining about the writing and the storyline.

Buffy operated on instinct from the start. Remember her running into the computer room, grabbing Jenny by the throat and pushing her back onto a desk with an entire class of kids watching? And it really is not that much of a leap to assume the bad guys are all together in one place - and it's not their target - and there has to be a reason for that. Those other big bads may not have had a scythe but they had a lair, a territory, a headquarters. I don't recall any big bads who were not attacked in that territory.

She is not a planner - she is not perfect - never has been - but she gets it done. She didn't say we must go in there right now - and she said she was open to ideas and plans. Then she was kicked out - and decided to go on her own. This is how the story goes. I think it's within her character. You say she was wrong to expect the others to go and that makes her a bad leader, as far as I can tell. I look past that and see that it worked out.

 

[white avenger]

Wolves. Have. Instinct.
They work as a team/pack from a young age. We never saw Buffy and Spike work as a tag-team during any sort of fight. Buffy and Faith haven't fought side by side in years. They may very well get in each others way- and all the while Caleb is lashing out with all he's got. I don't see it ending well at all.

Humans. Have. Intelligence.

That's why wolves are an endangered species, and humans aren't. At least not yet.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Humans. Have. Intelligence.
That's why wolves are an endangered species

And big guns too! I think the big guns kill more wolves than intelligence. Well, that and deforestation but thats another topic.