Buffy and sex

[bespangeled]

I finally have to question the truism that Buffy is punished for sex. What punishment was there for being with Riley? They developed different needs and broke up. Better yet - what is a good relationship in reality? Most teens don't find the one they will love forever so there are break ups, and those tend to be painful. So, is Buffy punished more than her partners? Angel had to deal with hell, and the pain he caused others. Riley was just as pained as Buffy - more so I would say. Spike learned that he could not be with Buffy in the dark and he wasn't capable of being in the light. There were lessons all around there.

Anya ended up gutted by Xander (metaphorically). Oz became a werewolf and abandoned Willow because he couldn't be just human. Tara was murdered. I do think the latter was the consequence of a choice Willow mad - but that choice wasn't sex.

But Buffy is about lessons - there are problems with friendships but we still count them as a positive force. Is Buffy being punished for being friends with Willow when Willow goes dark? When Willow almost kills Dawn? No - in fact the storyline says that Buffy wasn't a good enough friend to see her falling apart. But there is never any implication that Buffy could have prevented it, and no idea that Buffy started something by being friends.

 

[Blaze]

The only real metaphor I think about punishment for sex is with Angel, and it's not really a metaphor about sex itself, but it's a metaphor about young teenage girls falling in love with older guys that changes after they sleep with them.

I think other events are just pretty normal life events, not really punishment. Parker uses Buffy for a one night stand, something many girls have gone through, but it's not really saying that sex is evil. Just that some people do shitty things. Sex with Riley is healthy, until he cheats by getting bitten by that vampire, which is a metaphor for sex in my opinion. But again, no punishment, nothing about it is indicating that sex is bad. And finally, the roles are reversed and Buffy uses Spike for sex, again I don't see the punishment aspect much. It's not so much about sex, and more about other underlying issues.

 

[NothingVentured]

Joss Whedon: I didn't want to kill the girl who has sex, and yet I punish the shit out of her.

Punishment is an authorial motivation. Rarely, rarely does the movie directly relate one with the other. If you're not going to take authorial intent into account, as I think you said before that you don't, then there is never really any punishment for anything in fiction.

 

[bespangeled]

Joss Whedon: I didn't want to kill the girl who has sex, and yet I punish the shit out of her.

Punishment is an authorial motivation. Rarely, rarely does the movie directly relate one with the other. If you're not going to take authorial intent into account, as I think you said before that you don't, then there is never really any punishment for anything in fiction.

There is never punishment because I don't take authorial intent into account? Okay, that's your opinion. I disagree. Didn't realize Joss was an author, though.

 

[Taake]

Didn't realize Joss was an author, though.

I'd say he is.
An author can be described as;
1. Writer of a book, article, or other text.
2. One who practices writing as a profession.
3. One who writes or constructs an electronic document or system, such as a website.
4. An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.

Under those definitions Joss is certainly an author, even though he is not an author of literature.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy and Angel: Sex will get you or your friends killed. Either in S2 or S8 it is bad! Chastity all the way.

Buffy and Parker: Is just a reitteration of what happened with Angel. Guy turns into jerk after sex.

Buffy and Spike: Sex is dirty and dangerous and will destroy you and the one you're sleeping with. In S6 Buffy is cosumed with self-loathing (because of who she is having sex with) and now in S10 souled Spike is having dream troubles right after he sleeps with Buffy...

Buffy and Riley: A little trickier this but it has to be said that every time that these two are seen to be having/enjoying sex it soon leads to badness.
The first time we have Walsh sinisterly monitoring them from a secret location, then we have 'lots of naughty sex=temper tantrum child spirts that YOU unleashed with your hormones!!'
(I won't even touch the Riley sleeps with Faith in Buffy's body and tells her she loves him...)

The theme continues in S5 when in 'Out Of Their Minds' loads of sex with Buffy is seen as evidence that 'there's something wrong with Riley' and then in 'Into The Woods' we see that Riley can't connect/get what he needs from Buffy even when making love to her- so he cheats on her with vamps.

Contrast that with Willow, or Anya who have no trouble having sex (Xander and Anya's sex life is mentioned so many times in S4 without any negative consequences) and also the fact that Faith, who is carefree when it comes to sex, is portrayed as bad/reckless and is soon shown the error of her ways when she 'loses control' of herself. She is meant to contrast with the sweet, good and chaste Buffy.

(This isn't, in and of itself, a strong arguement at all but in addition to everything else it builds on the Buffy/Faith are reflections of each other, meant to illustrate things about the other person. Similar but different)

The only completely postive sexual experience that Buffy had one her two-night stand with fellow slayer Satsu in S8, which leads to the kinda crazy theory that JW is trying to say 'sex with guys is bad, but sex with girls has no negative consequences'.

On second thought, maybe that's not so crazy...😀

 

[janas]

Buffy and Angel: Sex will get you or your friends killed. Either in S2 or S8 it is bad! Chastity all the way.

Buffy and Parker: Is just a reitteration of what happened with Angel. Guy turns into jerk after sex.

Buffy and Spike: Sex is dirty and dangerous and will destroy you and the one you're sleeping with. In S6 Buffy is cosumed with self-loathing (because of who she is having sex with) and now in S10 souled Spike is having dream troubles right after he sleeps with Buffy...

Buffy and Riley: A little trickier this but it has to be said that every time that these two are seen to be having/enjoying sex it soon leads to badness.
The first time we have Walsh sinisterly monitoring them from a secret location, then we have 'lots of naughty sex=temper tantrum child spirts that YOU unleashed with your hormones!!'
(I won't even touch the Riley sleeps with Faith in Buffy's body and tells her she loves him...)

The theme continues in S5 when in 'Out Of Their Minds' loads of sex with Buffy is seen as evidence that 'there's something wrong with Riley' and then in 'Into The Woods' we see that Riley can't connect/get what he needs from Buffy even when making love to her- so he cheats on her with vamps.

Contrast that with Willow, or Anya who have no trouble having sex (Xander and Anya's sex life is mentioned so many times in S4 without any negative consequences) and also the fact that Faith, who is carefree when it comes to sex, is portrayed as bad/reckless and is soon shown the error of her ways when she 'loses control' of herself. She is meant to contrast with the sweet, good and chaste Buffy.

(This isn't, in and of itself, a strong arguement at all but in addition to everything else it builds on the Buffy/Faith are reflections of each other, meant to illustrate things about the other person. Similar but different)

The only completely postive sexual experience that Buffy had one her two-night stand with fellow slayer Satsu in S8, which leads to the kinda crazy theory that JW is trying to say 'sex with guys is bad, but sex with girls has no negative consequences'.

On second thought, maybe that's not so crazy...😀

...and the list goes on

Liam/Darla (want to have sex will bring you to eternal damnation)
Xander/Natalie French - Xander/Ampata - Willow/Malcolm (Surprise's episodes precursors, where the object of desire turns out to be a monster, becoming afterwards an obscure object of desire)
Wesley/Lilah (sleeping with the enemy in a dark time of your life)
Connor/Jasdelia (sex leads to the birth of evil)

and I'm pretty sure I forgot something

 

[bespangeled]

I'd say he is.
An author can be described as;
1. Writer of a book, article, or other text.
2. One who practices writing as a profession.
3. One who writes or constructs an electronic document or system, such as a website.
4. An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.

Under those definitions Joss is certainly an author, even though he is not an author of literature.

Sorry - yes he did write the occasional episode which is where his writing experience is relevant here. As for the rest - there is never punishment because I don't take authorial intent into account? I've said before that authorial intent is only one thing to take into account - or producer philosophy for that matter. 

Buffy and Angel: Sex will get you or your friends killed. Either in S2 or S8 it is bad! Chastity all the way.

Buffy and Parker: Is just a reitteration of what happened with Angel. Guy turns into jerk after sex.

Buffy and Spike: Sex is dirty and dangerous and will destroy you and the one you're sleeping with. In S6 Buffy is cosumed with self-loathing (because of who she is having sex with) and now in S10 souled Spike is having dream troubles right after he sleeps with Buffy...

Buffy and Riley: A little trickier this but it has to be said that every time that these two are seen to be having/enjoying sex it soon leads to badness.
The first time we have Walsh sinisterly monitoring them from a secret location, then we have 'lots of naughty sex=temper tantrum child spirts that YOU unleashed with your hormones!!'
(I won't even touch the Riley sleeps with Faith in Buffy's body and tells her she loves him...)

The theme continues in S5 when in 'Out Of Their Minds' loads of sex with Buffy is seen as evidence that 'there's something wrong with Riley' and then in 'Into The Woods' we see that Riley can't connect/get what he needs from Buffy even when making love to her- so he cheats on her with vamps.

Contrast that with Willow, or Anya who have no trouble having sex (Xander and Anya's sex life is mentioned so many times in S4 without any negative consequences) and also the fact that Faith, who is carefree when it comes to sex, is portrayed as bad/reckless and is soon shown the error of her ways when she 'loses control' of herself. She is meant to contrast with the sweet, good and chaste Buffy.

(This isn't, in and of itself, a strong arguement at all but in addition to everything else it builds on the Buffy/Faith are reflections of each other, meant to illustrate things about the other person. Similar but different)

The only completely postive sexual experience that Buffy had one her two-night stand with fellow slayer Satsu in S8, which leads to the kinda crazy theory that JW is trying to say 'sex with guys is bad, but sex with girls has no negative consequences'.

On second thought, maybe that's not so crazy...😀

Okay - I agree with everything you say about Buffy.
Willow - Oz became a werewolf and abandoned Willow because he couldn't be just human. Tara was murdered.
Xander - Cheated on Cordelia, and walked out on Anya
Anya - abandoned and publicly humiliated

I can go on, but why. Show me a single relationship with no bumps - sexual or not.

And I'd say that Buffy suffered from self loathing before she went to Spike- it was why she went to Spike

 

[EVIL UU]

The only completely postive sexual experience that Buffy had one her two-night stand with fellow slayer Satsu in S8

Let's not forget that Buffy's friends/family members dropped straight into her bedroom after a night with Satsu. Obviously not as bad as Buffy's usual sex leads to badness bad but on a scale of 1 to 10 that's still pretty damn catastrophic in my opinion.

Contrast that with Willow

Well, isn't that sort of the point? I always thought that Willow and Buffy were build around the idea of opposites.

or Anya

Also, Harmony.

What punishment was there for being with Riley

"Where The Wild Things Are"

I can go on, but why. Show me a single relationship with no bumps - sexual or not.

Why are you trying to move the goal posts?

 

[thetopher]

Okay - I agree with everything you say about Buffy.
Willow - Oz became a werewolf and abandoned Willow because he couldn't be just human. Tara was murdered.
Xander - Cheated on Cordelia, and walked out on Anya
Anya - abandoned and publicly humiliated

But not of this relationship trouble was directly linked with sex- sex had really nothing to do with their break-ups. Buffy's always are to a certain extent.

With Oz it was about being a werewolf, Veruca and his attraction to her just shone a light on that 'animal within' condition. It's a shame that this storyline got curtailed the way it was because it would've been very interesting.
And Tara died simply because the storyline required it. I know they were having sex right before and some people linked the two together- lesbian sex leads to either dead or evil, but all the writers including Joss said time and again that that wasn't their intent, they wanted Willow and Tara to be happy together one last time before dramatically (cruelly) ripping them apart.

Xander/Anya's breakup had nothing to do with the 'badness of having sex', it was about commitment issues. They also continue to have angst-free sex in S7.

And I'd say that Buffy suffered from self loathing before she went to Spike- it was why she went to Spike

She suffered from depression before and self-loathing during/after the fact.

Well, isn't that sort of the point? I always thought that Willow and Buffy were build around the idea of opposites.

Not just Willow but Faith. They get to enjoy guilt-free, stress-free sex, although they both do go evil at one point or another. Maybe Buffy's apparent 'virtue' is linked in some way? 😛

I'm not sure that the writers intended almost all of Buffy's relationship problems to be linked so strongly with sex (especially in regards to Riley), but that is the pattern that emerges