Buffy and the Knights of Byzantium

J

Johnatron

Sunday's Lackey
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How do you feel about Buffy killing several of the Knights we see in 'Spiral'. Was her killing justified? Does it make her a hypocrite after numerously saying how a slayer is not a killer.

Personally I feel in the situation she had hardly any choice and her main priority was to protect Dawn. Maybe if she was just kicking them off the Xander-mobile it wouldn't show any intent which I know she did do with some but we also see her throw an axe into one of the Knights chest. And only two episodes later Giles says she's incapable of killing a human...?

It's a two way street I feel. Buffy has the right moral compass and does not wish to kill humans but perhaps with clouded judgement she would do anything to succeed in her mission e.g. "I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn."
 
Yeah I've struggled a lot with this scene, trying to figure out what was really going on-- as it's said over and over in the series by Buffy and others that she would never kill a human. She refrains repeatedly from-- or tries to delay and any cost, killing humans even when they put the lives of her loved ones in danger. The party line is always made very clear, very black and white: humans, can't touch. In fact, beings with a soul are always off limits. (Furthermore she won't harm those who could be dangerous but are incapable of doing harm at present). And though she tells everyone at the end of "The Gift" that she'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn, we have no way of knowing whether she actually would. In fact, there is evidence that she wouldn't: she doesn't even kill Ben.

So here's my take on the situation: Buffy doesn't consider the Knights to be human. It's the only way in which the series doesn't completely trip all over itself in this regard, and it can work. When she first encounters them in the alley, she lets them go. At that point, there's no reason for her to think they're anything other than human beings. But by "Spiral," she has more information. They're looking for the key, which is older than time, and they're after Glory. She might have assumed, (as I did), that the knights actually either a)came from another dimension, through a portal, to stop Glory or b)traveled through time from Byzantium itself to stop Glory, or c)have existed since 600BC -ish when Byzantium was around, and are trying to stop Glory. I think C is most likely the case.

Considering all of the above scenarios, it could be argued that the Knights are not human. If Buffy assumed that they came from another dimension or traveled through time she could have also supposed, especially in the heat of the moment, that they were some other type of being that could do so easily--the fact that they'd have to have had the power to see into the future or across dimensions would support the theory that they aren't humans. Most of all, if they are truly Knights of Byzantium--ie the same knights of Byzantium that existed when Byzantium did, (as opposed to some descendants taking up the cause) then they are clearly not humans .

Of course this is all my take on the situation and it allows me to watch season 5 without getting frustrated at the complete shift in principle sans explanation. To clarify: if Buffy decides she wants to start killing humans who put the lives of her loved ones in danger, that's ok by me. But why now? That has to be addressed. It's something she'd never done before, (if you don't count the circumstances surrounding Faith which I don't because I don't believe Buffy's intent at any point was to kill her), and since she had gone out of her way to make this distinction numerous times, there should be some sort of discussion or follow through if she'd decided to handle things differently. Moreover Giles would have to be a complete idiot for announcing a few episodes later that "Buffy could never kill a human because she's a hero" since he was fully aware that she killed some Knights. And I don't think that's the case.
 
Yeah I never thought they were properly human to be honest, they seemed to come out of nowhere.
 
just read somewhere that Spike experienced pain when he hit the Knights, so if they are not human, that supports the theory that they are from a different dimension.
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Interesting! I can't remember a scene in which Spike hits one of them, but I'll have to rewatch. Do you know when? Was it when Gregor was in the gas station with them?

The other point is that regardless of what they were, Buffy, (to reference my earlier argument), might have thought they weren't human. (And at the time she killed them, Spike definitely hadn't gotten his hands on them). So her character is consistent. We can fault her for assuming incorrectly that the weren't, (if in fact they were), but at least this explains her willingness to kill them.

You know I think if you live in Sunnydale and have seen and lived as Buffy has at that point, when someone introduces himself as a "Knight of Byzantium" you will probably assume that he is actually a Knight of Byzantium, (ie some sort of phantom), and not just a guy playing dress up or taking on the cause of his ancestors. Whereas in our world, if you meet a guy who says he's from the Confederate Army you'll probably assume he's some guy who's about to go reenact the Civil War and not the real thing. 🙂
 
I never even thought of them as human myself so I've never really thought about it in that much depth. I just figured if they knew about Glory and the Key they were probably mystical themselves.
 
Gum Gnome33 said:
Interesting! I can't remember a scene in which Spike hits one of them, but I'll have to rewatch. Do you know when? Was it when Gregor was in the gas station with them?
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I couldn't tell you when. Another BB user mentioned it in an old thread, so they could have been mistaken.

Gum Gnome33 said:
Buffy, (to reference my earlier argument), might have thought they weren't human.
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I agree that it's likely Buffy thought they weren't human.

I never really questioned whether they were human or not when I watched it, but come to think of it they did seem kind of strong for humans.

But regardless of whether they were human or not they were ultimately trying to stop the end of the world. They weren't the bad guys, they just got caught in the cross fire.
 
Some of them must have been mystical, didn't a couple of them do a spell to try and get the forcefield down when the Scoobies were trapped in that shack?
 
sisterofmercy said:
Some of them must have been mystical, didn't a couple of them do a spell to try and get the forcefield down when the Scoobies were trapped in that shack?
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They did. But Willow and Tara are proof that humans can cast spells.
 
They were human, as proven by Spike when he tried to punch them and his chip activated (I'm pretty sure that happens in Spiral, by the way, in the station).

That being said, it was easy to ignore that since it's weird and off-putting to watch Buffy and co. besieged at a roadside petrol station by LARPers that inexplicably multiply into huge armies and serve no purpose except world-building exposition. Seriously, how are they so never-ending? Magic? Rabbit genes? Mitosis? And how does one join the Knights? I don't understand why so many people, from antiquity to the present day, would feel the urge to go hunting for an ancient and super-powerful yet obscure and esoteric Key that might at some point be used by an evil hell god at an indeterminate point in the future. And if they originated in the pre-Christian city-state Byzantium, why do they seem to be Christian? Or is it supposed to be Byzantium as in Constantinople as in the capital of the Byzantine Empire that existed in twelfth century at the same time that the Order of Dagon was founded and all this Beast/Key stuff seemed to become relevant to human beings? And why do they still dress like they're actually from the twelfth century? Did they time travel? Did their whole never-ending army time travel?

In all seriousness, I know BtVS has always had inconsistencies, but these guys pushed me over the limits of my suspension of disbelief.

So yeah, if they're human, they're probably weird, possessed, magic clones or something. If I was Buffy, I'd assume them to be something like that, at least.
 
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Possibly Buffy was so unhesitating in killing the Knights of Byzantium for the same reason that she was so adamant about protecting Dawn, even at the cost of that literally destroying the world because of the spell that the mysterious monks used to morph the Key into Dawn, then have everyone connected with Buffy and her family believe that they had known her for 14 years. If the main purpose of the spell was to have Buffy protect the Key at all cost, any inhibitions that she might have had, as in taking human lives or allowing her primary mission, keeping the world safe and averting the occasional apocalypse, would have been overpowered by her desire to protect Dawn. That would also explain why, by Season 7, once any threat to the Key had been averted, Buffy admits that, if the decision were hers to make at that time, she would have let Dawn die. was The protection spell no longer in force.

In other words, the monks' spell overrode Buffy's value on human life.
 
sisterofmercy said:
True, but I think morally speaking it would be a bit different if you killed them in self defense.
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I don't think that Buffy was wrong in killing them. You can't go chasing people on horseback, throwing spears at them and not expect a retaliation. However they probably were human. I guess Buffy wouldn't really be wondering about morals when her own life and her friend's lives were in danger.
 
For realsies? Loved it. The more knights she killed the better.

---------- Post added at 04:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

The knights were some pussies, average enemies fighting a semi worthless cause. Similar to soldiers these days fighting a worthless fight.
 
white avenger said:
Possibly Buffy was so unhesitating in killing the Knights of Byzantium for the same reason that she was so adamant about protecting Dawn, even at the cost of that literally destroying the world because of the spell that the mysterious monks used to morph the Key into Dawn, then have everyone connected with Buffy and her family believe that they had known her for 14 years. If the main purpose of the spell was to have Buffy protect the Key at all cost, any inhibitions that she might have had, as in taking human lives or allowing her primary mission, keeping the world safe and averting the occasional apocalypse, would have been overpowered by her desire to protect Dawn. That would also explain why, by Season 7, once any threat to the Key had been averted, Buffy admits that, if the decision were hers to make at that time, she would have let Dawn die. was The protection spell no longer in force. In other words, the monks' spell overrode Buffy's value on human life.
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I really like this theory and would jump at it except for the fact that Buffy doesn't kill Ben. At that point she knows he's Glory as she watches him morph before her eyes, and she still can't kill him. Killing Glory would obviously be the ultimate way in which to save Dawn but Buffy can't kill her human counterpart. So to me it seems her "don't kill those with souls" principles are still intact and for some reason she sticks to them though she could have ended it all in that moment.
 
They were definitely humans. Buffy killed them because it was self-defense... They wouldn't stop until they got Dawn and killed all of them... So she did what she had to do.
 
Gum Gnome33 said:
I really like this theory and would jump at it except for the fact that Buffy doesn't kill Ben. At that point she knows he's Glory as she watches him morph before her eyes, and she still can't kill him.
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But it might be considered that only Glory presents any sort of threat to Dawn. She would likely see Ben and Glory as virtually two separate beings, the same way that she differentiates Angelus and Angel. Glory is a threat to Dawn, so Buffy wouldn't hesitate to kill her if possible. Ben, she sees as a normal human, and, as long as he offers Dawn no direct threat, the "don't kill humans" rule remains in force.

(It's a stretch, I know, but I've had this theory too long to just let it go because of one little detail)
 
It was a kill or be killed situation... I know it can be argued that she could have neutralised them without killing them but that would have taken some serious restraint that may have wound up with her losing the fight, and to be fair she was out numbered and they attacked her, she had little choice in this fight
 
I think people dumb enough to attack a slayer (or a fallen hell dimension god) with horses and swords rather than modern weapons deserve what they get.

Seriously, I think the Knights of Byzantium were one of the dumbest things to ever grace the Buffy series. They made me long for the Initiative, which is no easy feat.
 
Gum Gnome33 said:
I really like this theory and would jump at it except for the fact that Buffy doesn't kill Ben.
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Don't forget that Ben was an innocent human being. He might have made some bad decisions, but no one can really blame him.

The Knights of Byzantium presumably had choice in their actions, and surely knew that their live's were at risk when they made the choice to go after the slayer and her kin.
 
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