Buffy and the Scoobies

[LadyLavinia]

I'm watching "Revelations" right now. I'm watching the scene in which the Scoobies reveal to Buffy that they know that Angel is still alive and she had been keeping his presence a secret from them.

I realize they're angry that she lied to them about Angel being alive. But . . . this scene pissed me off. If there is one thing about Buffy's relationship with Giles and the Scoobies that has burned me is that she has allowed them to dictate her behavior, due to her own fear of losing their friendship. Has Buffy ever put such pressure on Xander, Willow or Giles? I wonder. They put her on a pedestal as "THE SLAYER" and rarely allow her to be herself or have her own life. Xander is the worst offender of them all.

This attitude reached its pennacle when Willow, with Xander, Anya and Tara's assistance, brought her back from the dead . . . without her consent or anything. All because they needed "THE SLAYER". No wonder she had begun to distance herself from them in Season 7.

 

[charmingslayer]

I was so disgusted at Xander cause his hypocritical ass cause he's doing the same thing to Cordelia in the same episode.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I was so disgusted at Xander cause his hypocritical ass cause he's doing the same thing to Cordelia in the same episode.

Precisely. And the sad thing is that this will not be the only time Xander will disgust me.

 

[Dancing man]

I think Giles Xander and Willow are just concerned about Buffy and when you look who she was hiding from them you cant really blame them.

 

[sosa lola]

I think Giles Xander and Willow are just concerned about Buffy and when you look who she was hiding from them you cant really blame them.

I agree. I can't really blame them for being scared and angry in this episode.

Your example about S6 is much better than this one IMO. They were selfish and ignorant.

But in Revelation, they felt scared, upset and betrayed. Can't really blame them after what they'd gone through in S2. Angelus had tried to kill all of them Giles (in Becoming) Xander (in BB&B) and Willow (in Innocence). I'd be scared and pissed off, too.

 

[caitaintdead]

See I think their behaviour in Season 6 regarding bringing Buffy back is more excusable due to how much grief they must have been feeling. Yes, it was ignorant and selfish in some ways, but when they say the world needs a slayer I can see them just missing a friend that was a large part of their life. Due to it being Buffy the slayer, they had a 'reason' for bringing her back other then missing her, or wanting her back.

I understand that the scoobies were upset when they found out that Buffy was hiding something from them. But was the real issue that Buffy was hiding something that was potentially dangerous, or that she was keeping a secret from them? Obviously it sucks when a close friend hides something, but hey - it happens.

My biggest issue with the scoobie confrontations is that they always do it in a gang. No one on one discussion with her. No pulling her aside from potentials in empty places, or asking to speak to her in private in dead mans party. Just boom. In public.

THREE situations where Buffy has been ganged up on in 7 years is definitely a bit rough in my opinion.

 

[Silum]

I'm watching "Revelations" right now. I'm watching the scene in which the Scoobies reveal to Buffy that they know that Angel is still alive and she had been keeping his presence a secret from them.

I realize they're angry that she lied to them about Angel being alive. But . . . this scene pissed me off. If there is one thing about Buffy's relationship with Giles and the Scoobies that has burned me is that she has allowed them to dictate her behavior, due to her own fear of losing their friendship. Has Buffy ever put such pressure on Xander, Willow or Giles? I wonder. They put her on a pedestal as "THE SLAYER" and rarely allow her to be herself or have her own life. Xander is the worst offender of them all.

This attitude reached its pennacle when Willow, with Xander, Anya and Tara's assistance, brought her back from the dead . . . without her consent or anything. All because they needed "THE SLAYER". No wonder she had begun to distance herself from them in Season 7.

I dont think I could agree with you more. It annoyed me this double standard that existed throughout the series, but its also why I love Buffy so much. She rises above the pettiness of her friends.

By Season 7 though, I didn't really see her distance herself from her friends, I saw her, again, rise above the drama of it all. Her friends are faffing about worrying about her relationship with Spike in the middle of a WAR! The worst battle they could ever fight and they are arguing over who's got the better leader credibility..it was like high school all over again. And yet, Buffy still managed to utilise her friends and still keep them close.

 

[sosa lola]

Her friends are faffing about worrying about her relationship with Spike in the middle of a WAR!

When was that? 🙂 I thought they didn't like her plan, I didn't hear them complain about Spike, except for Rona.

 

[Kana]

I think Xander was the 'main offender' and I agree Xander does tend to be hypocritical and put Buffy on a pedestal. However, this is because she's his hero. Our heroes have the ability to disappoint us the most.

Xander is also worried about what to do with Angel now. He argues that after what happened last time, personal issues don't enter into it: lots of dead people constitutes a reason.

Willow was perhaps the least judgemental but was historically right. She felt when it came to Angel, she struggles to think straight.

Giles was upset with the fact that Buffy witheld important information. As far he was concerned, considering her kissing him, she was putting lives in danger. A Slayer doesn't have the luxury to make such decisions.

I think it's definitely understandable that the gang were upset and worried and seeing Buffy kissing him made Xander assume the worst.

I also think Buffy's actions were understandable. She knew the gang would assume the worst, that's why she tried to protect them. However, finding out later made matters worse. Buffy really should have come clean from the beginning.

 

[sosa lola]

I think all actions were understandable. I surely didn't hate anyone in that scene. If I were in Buffy's shoes, I'd have done the same and hid Angel. If I were the Scoobies' shoes, I'd have gotten scared and upset with Buffy.

 

[stinkyweasel]

Both Buffy and the Scoobies had valid points.I think the main problem though is Xander's insecurities which were so apparent since S1 Ep.1. He's always had an inferority complex from the start.Everyone can contribute something special except him.To top it all off,Angel took the girl he wanted,then Buffy hooked up with big,bad solider Riley,then with of all people,Spike. That must have really crushed his delicate ego. I think that when Xander told Giles and the gang about Angel being back,it was more about him hating Angel and pretty much being uber jealous of him and Buffy then worrying about wether or not Angel was dangerous. Although to his credit,he has always been able to swallow his pride and hide his hurt,and do the job when the chips were down.

 

[Revolver]

If you're strictly talking about "Revelations", yes, Xander was the worst offender. However, I think this is not true at all later on in the series. In the infamous scene where the Scoobies kick Buffy out of her house, I would argue that Willow, Giles, Dawn, and Anya were all far worse than Xander.

 

[stinkyweasel]

If you're strictly talking about "Revelations", yes, Xander was the worst offender. However, I think this is not true at all later on in the series. In the infamous scene where the Scoobies kick Buffy out of her house, I would argue that Willow, Giles, Dawn, and Anya were all far worse than Xander.

Yeah,you do have a point. Now that I think about it and give Xander his due,it seems that from S5 onward,he does "man up" so to speak and quits feeling sorry for himself. And now that I think really hard about it,there is that speech he gives
Dawn in S7 about feeling left out and he tells her that she is an amazing (or mabey an incredible)person.And he was the only one who stood up for Buffy when the others kicked her out.

 

[ukkid09]

I hate Xander in that scene 🙂

 

[caitaintdead]

If you're strictly talking about "Revelations", yes, Xander was the worst offender. However, I think this is not true at all later on in the series. In the infamous scene where the Scoobies kick Buffy out of her house, I would argue that Willow, Giles, Dawn, and Anya were all far worse than Xander.

I concur. Plus, Xander had just lost an eye...

(Me?! Sticking up for Xander? Wow, that pro-Xander spiel I had to write in the BBBB house really has changed me)

 

[AgentX7k]

I think I side with Buffy in that whole mess, she wanted to hide him out of fear of how they might react and sure they reacted quite badly but that was mostly because she kept the secret from them. But still I'd expect them to react badly just finding out he's back. And yeah I hated Xander in that moment, the
'fell on his lips' line especially considering he did the exact thing two episodes ago. I also hate how he milks Jenny's death all the time to get other people to agree with him, she meant more to Giles/Willow and they can keep their cool, it's all about jealously to me.

 

[satam55]

I'm watching "Revelations" right now. I'm watching the scene in which the Scoobies reveal to Buffy that they know that Angel is still alive and she had been keeping his presence a secret from them.

I realize they're angry that she lied to them about Angel being alive. But . . . this scene pissed me off. If there is one thing about Buffy's relationship with Giles and the Scoobies that has burned me is that she has allowed them to dictate her behavior, due to her own fear of losing their friendship. Has Buffy ever put such pressure on Xander, Willow or Giles? I wonder. They put her on a pedestal as "THE SLAYER" and rarely allow her to be herself or have her own life. Xander is the worst offender of them all.

Yes! He really pissed me off in this episode because he such a hypocrite. If I was Buffy, any opinion Xander has about Angel (or Spike in the later seasons) should be tossed out window because deep down Xander is just mad because he knows he will NEVER be more than just a friend to Buffy.

 

[neoolong]

Reviewing the transcripts of Beauty and the Beasts and Revelations, Xander comes off poorly because of how he chooses to phrase his arguments. However, he's actually still right, even if insensitive. In Beauty and the Beasts, Buffy chose to simply restrain Angel in hopes of keeping him from being a danger. She fails, he breaks free and kills. She's just lucky that the person that is killed is a "bad guy" instead of an innocent person. Since she can't watch him 24/7, she's incredibly irresponsible since she has no idea if Angel is going to go off again.

Xander's right, regardless of motive. Buffy couldn't kill Angelus when she had the chance, and innocent people got killed. There's nothing to say that she won't do it again, given that she can't help but kiss Angel. He also doesn't lie to Faith about Angel, and does say specifically that "[Buffy] says he's clean." Should they kill Angel? That's debatable, but Buffy keeping it a secret isn't helping things, and sure as hell didn't keep Angel from killing.

Buffy's points pretty much go up in smoke once Angel's killed. She's shown that she can't actually keep him from killing, so she really should have fessed up.

 

[fly on the wall]

Reviewing the transcripts of Beauty and the Beasts and Revelations, Xander comes off poorly because of how he chooses to phrase his arguments. However, he's actually still right, even if insensitive. In Beauty and the Beasts, Buffy chose to simply restrain Angel in hopes of keeping him from being a danger. She fails, he breaks free and kills. She's just lucky that the person that is killed is a "bad guy" instead of an innocent person. Since she can't watch him 24/7, she's incredibly irresponsible since she has no idea if Angel is going to go off again.

Lucky? I don't think there was anything "lucky" about who Angel killed in that episode. I believe that in his erratic state, he broke free to try and find Buffy. Why else would he go to Sunnydale High, of all places? When he found her, and saw her being attacked, he protected her and killed the man who was trying to kill her. Then upon seeing Buffy, safe, he became cognitive again.

Xander's right, regardless of motive.

But you simply can't disregard his motive here! If Buffy acted irresponsibly by keeping Angel hidden, then Xander acted equally if not more irresponsibly by attempting to kill a being without knowing if that being was good or evil, was going to kill or was not going to kill, had a soul or didn't. Essentially, Xander acted without ANY thought of who this person was. He didn't care if he was going to murder Angel or Angelus. Two very different people.

Buffy couldn't kill Angelus when she had the chance, and innocent people got killed. There's nothing to say that she won't do it again, given that she can't help but kiss Angel.

And does it seem likely that Angelus would sit around and smooch his sworn enemy? Xander's problem here is that he refuses to differentiate between Angel and Angelus. To him, they're one in the same, and that's incredibly ignorant. Buffy, on the other hand, knew that ANGEL was back, and knew how her friends (Giles and Xander in particular) would react. So although perhaps she shouldn't have lied, I can understand her side of it more than Xander's. Angel was not a threat. No, she could not stop ANGELUS from killing, but this is not Angelus we're talking about.

 

[neoolong]

Lucky? I don't think there was anything "lucky" about who Angel killed in that episode. I believe that in his erratic state, he broke free to try and find Buffy. Why else would he go to Sunnydale High, of all places? When he found her, and saw her being attacked, he protected her and killed the man who was trying to kill her. Then upon seeing Buffy, safe, he became cognitive again.

Where in the episode is that said? Because all I recall is him breaking free and running off. Yeah, maybe he did go to Sunnydale High for the reason you said, but also as you said, he was in an "erratic state." Not someone that is safe, and it's lucky that he didn't run across anyone else before he got there.

But you simply can't disregard his motive here! If Buffy acted irresponsibly by keeping Angel hidden, then Xander acted equally if not more irresponsibly by attempting to kill a being without knowing if that being was good or evil, was going to kill or was not going to kill, had a soul or didn't.

Please read the part of the episode I quoted. He actually presented the facts, more or less, to Faith who made the decision and stated why she made the decision. In point of fact, more facts would have made the case worse, since we know that Angel did kill. How about the time that is unaccounted for? Does Buffy know what happened? Because we know that Angel killed someone that was a threat, but given his "erratic state" who is to say that he didn't kill anybody else?

Essentially, Xander acted without ANY thought of who this person was. He didn't care if he was going to murder Angel or Angelus. Two very different people.

So who broke free from his restraints and escaped? Who ended up killing a person? Regardless of the fact that it was a "bad guy", his "erratic state" meant that it could have been an innocent person. So who exactly did that? Angelus or Angel?

And does it seem likely that Angelus would sit around and smooch his sworn enemy? Xander's problem here is that he refuses to differentiate between Angel and Angelus. To him, they're one in the same, and that's incredibly ignorant.

Irrelevant. Giles already said even if Angel came back, "Most likely, he'd be, be a monster." Yeah, there's other stuff about the nature of the monster, but the Angelus/Angel differentiation isn't the issue that comes up.

Buffy, on the other hand, knew that ANGEL was back, and knew how her friends (Giles and Xander in particular) would react. So although perhaps she shouldn't have lied, I can understand her side of it more than Xander's. Angel was not a threat. No, she could not stop ANGELUS from killing, but this is not Angelus we're talking about.

So you ignore that Angel did break free from his restraints and ended up escaping in an "erratic state"? Because given his state, and that Giles' says he might be a "monster" and not Angel, and that we know that Angel does kill, how exactly is her side understandable? Or at least, makes her stance defendable?