Buffy and....

[Angel's vision]

I'm not gonna lie Buffy and Angel are my fav, but its just because he was her first love and still is her love. He would do anything to protect her...and he did. He sacrificed alot...not that the others didn't its just he would always do it. If Riley wasn't such an idiot and he didn't leave the would have been together a little longer, but I guess they were finished anyway. I love how much love Spike and Buffy had for each other in the end, but they really aren't meant to be. Just another fish in the sea he was but not a waste of time though. It changed him and her for the better and I'm glad they got together. But if Angel and Buffy didn't live in this world of evil I really think they would be together right now married, happy. But if it weren't for the evil Angel wouldn't have become a vampire and got a soul and met Buffy and found his reason for living. Haha I could probably write more if I had more time to think of better reasons. lol

:love2:

even though i'm not a Bangel fan i do see that they would of married if it hadn't of been for his vampirism and the pesky curse like you said.

I don't think Riley OR Spike were really suitable for her either, Riley was a rebound relationship, Spike was for Buffy to bury herself in to feel something basically she used him to dump her negative emotions onto, their relationship reflected what she felt about herself.

 

[Schillaci]

I had hoped to elicit an intelligent response (an error on my part, I should have realised an intelligent response is probably beyond most of you), or at the very least more votes for Spike, unfortunately I was rewarded with the exact opposite. But to quote a famous song, “there’s nothing you can see that can’t be shown”, I will proceed perhaps with the barest hope that I can open the eyes of the blind. Understanding is a funny thing, it is often erroneously assumed that understanding is synonymous with knowledge, that just ‘to know’ would mean also ‘to understand‘. That because you watch a tv show, you understand what it is actually saying. Of course without knowledge there would be no understanding, and without experience the other two would be impossible.

Im sorry, but buffy used Spike, and besides, no one is going to convince me that spike and buffy belong together. Just isnt right.

Yes, for a period, Buffy used Spike. Let me use my experience to briefly shine a light into the inner confines of your ‘mind‘. Maybe, if only for a moment, I can enlighten your knowledge of Buffy using Spike, and the implications of that. When you use a person, as Buffy did do with Spike, in such an intimate setting, feelings grow. It is not your intent, it is not your desire, but it happens. You can fight against it, as Buffy did, but it is there. She began to care for Spike, and that flung her. She couldn’t begin to understand why she would care for something that she is supposed to detest. Even in her mind she began to wonder if it was love.

Dead Things:
BUFFY: It wasn't the demons. It was Warren. He knew Katrina. He had something to do with it, I know it.
WILLOW: How can you be sure?
BUFFY: You always hurt the one you love.

This, was of course, just after she had beaten seven shades of blue into Spike.

Its always got o be Bangel, they where the most memorable and important couple on both shows and their relationship ultimately shaped the outcome of both shows.

There was no Bangel relationship in the five years that Angel was in LA. That you think their relationship “ultimately shaped the outcome of both shows” implies that you have a poor grasp of the English language or your understanding of both shows is sufficiently lacking for you to be able to engage in an intelligent conversation on either show.

Thye also has that admirable puppy love factor, although you knew it was a real and strong love, it always reminded me of m first puppy love. Also ou have to give them credit for the sheer irony and tragedy that comes hand in hand with the whole buffy and angel love. It definettly had a romeo and juliet facor inertwined with a reek tradegy feel to it.
In conclusion Bangel rules!!!

Yes! Indeed there was a reek to the Bangel relationship.

As for the others, Riley was clearly just a rebound guy, someone who was opposite to angel because buffy felt that was the way to go after how terribly her relationship with angel went.

Again we are agreed. After how terribly her relationship with Angel went.
BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship— when you broke up with me or when I killed you?
That she highlights these points to Angel is not lost on Buffy or Angel. Their relationship was all about pain, and the highlight was these two incidents. They couldn't deal with their problems, which got to a point where their problems was bigger than the sum of their relationship, and it broke them up.

As for Spike he was initially a reaction to depression and er that he was just someone to lean on when buffy had no one else, i dont think love was even a factor, even on pikes side, i always saw his feelings as more a sign of obsession than love, yes even in series 7.

BUFFY: Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?
Buffy: You always hurt the one you love.
Buffy: (To Spike) I love you.

Your statement that Spike didn’t love Buffy is a clear indication that you have no understanding of Spike’s actions, at all. On reflection I can only come to the conclusion that you have the intellect of an insect. I am shocked that I even bothered replying to your comments at all. If there is anything else about the Buffy tv show that you don’t understand, please pm me. My response will be short, concise, succinct, exact, I will leave no room for interpretation.

Ok, maybe I should explain some of my reasoning for Bangel.

Ok, it was clear to me that Buffy and Angel really did have that kind of love where each of them grew in turn. If Angel would have never loved Buffy, shown her stuff, Buffy would not have the strength to do the things she had to end up doing. Her realtionship with Angel made her grow, and the same with Angel. He seemed like the creepy lost stalker dude in the beginning, and I know some of this is character development, but he too changed and grew up, even to the point on where he couldn't hurt Buffy, and he left. He never ever forgot her or stopped loving her, but he knew he had to let her go, I assume that would be very hard, and it gets easier I'd think, when you don't see the person.

Please..
The only growth Angel ever made was with the influence of Cordelia. Of all the major characters, Angel changed the least, he wasn't that much different from when he met Buffy until he took on the Senior partners. But he had changed, that was mostly due to Cordelia.

As for Buffy, Angel left Buffy a wreck. He gutted her, so deficient was he in understanding a human being, he offered love, Buffy felt pain.

Willow: (about Riley)He's not making you miserable?
That Angel made Buffy miserable is cleary a sign of their "true love"...

Dawn: She sure cries a lot less with you than she did with Angel.
Riley: (surprised) Angel ... made her cry a lot, huh?

Wow, what love.

Also, Buffy, she never really stopped loving Angel, you could see that when Angel returned in season 7, and she kissed him, it was almost as if she couldn't help it. I don't think buffy EVER loved Spike, when Spike came into this whole thing, buffy was having tough times, he was the only one that showed her attention, even if it wasn't the kind Buffy wanted. I believe Spike may have fallen for Buffy, but Buffy just wanted to forget about her own pain, if she loved him, the entire seasn 6 and 7 would have been different. buffy used Spike sorta as a pawn, or a escape goat more than a lover. Even her cookie dough speech wasn't all that convincing. I think at that point Buffy was so pressured and everything, that why would she waste time on trying to fix a realtionship that couldn't be there. Instead she went with the one she counted on, the one she knew was always there because Spike would make sure it was. No doubt Spike loved Buffy, but the thing that bothers me, is that Buffy never truly loved spike..I dont think she ever even LIKED him that much. I know, some would say her resisting was just her lying to herself, ya, that's one interuptation, but for me, im just not seeing it, to me, Bangel was love, Spuffy was a safety net.

Read above. Spuffy was a safety net? Did you watch the show?

even though i'm not a Bangel fan i do see that they would of married if it hadn't of been for his vampirism and the pesky curse like you said.

I don't think Riley OR Spike were really suitable for her either, Riley was a rebound relationship, Spike was for Buffy to bury herself in to feel something basically she used him to dump her negative emotions onto, their relationship reflected what she felt about herself.

In season 6...

Do any of you understand change? With each passing moment I am different. Just because at one point Buffy had negative feelings towards Spike is not a fair assessment of their entire relationship.

Spike: Doesn't seem to me it matters very much how you start out.

Fixating on how Buffy and Spike came to be together is just an indication of complete and utter ignorance of anything resembling understanding. We could all fixate on Angel being sexually attracted to a 15 year old girl. Such simple points, I'm sure, will be lost on you.


EDIT:

Apparently, theres no use fighting with someone who has such a tiny brain about things, and is so closed minded, im not even going to waste a post on this one.

You don't appreciate my truculent criticisms of your inept comments? How about you spare a little consideration for me, I had to read your reply.

Oh and don't ever call me close minded when you have already stated that your position on the subject will never change, hypocrite.

Im sorry, but buffy used Spike, and besides, no one is going to convince me that spike and buffy belong together. Just isnt right.

I reserve the right to be as declamatory as I wish, it is not my responsibility to educate you beyond the means of your tiny little closed brain.

 

[Darling Faithy]

I never said I wasnt a hipocrite, but the fact that you downed every single one of my thoughts, and some of the others, how close minded can you get, and I have solid belief, in my mind why spuffy would never work, but I didnt need to resort to downing all your thoughts just to make my point.

 

[raniE]

I'm still not getting this whole anti-Bangel anti-Spuffy yay-Riley thing, raniE. =s Oh well...

Well, it's not so much a pro-Riley/Buffy thing as it is an anti both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike thing, although to be fair, my antipathy for the Angel/Buffy relationship is mostly based on how it was in s3.

...

It saddens me that there is a need for a topic like this, that only a select few of us see the truth.

Every princess needs her knight, the other half of the symbiotic circle to complete her.

Um... No. Nobody needs another person to "complete them". Since the rest of your argument is based on this cornerstone I won't bother refuting the rest of it. Also, representing Buffy as a princess in need of a Knight seems very very contrary to one of the main themes of the show (female power and empowerment).

 

[Angel's vision]

Dzhugasvilli, while i Do understand where you are comming from that both Spike and Buffy's feelings did grow in time after she used him, i Don't get why you said:

As for Buffy, Angel left Buffy a wreck. He gutted her, so deficient was he in understanding a human being, he offered love, Buffy felt pain.

Angel saw no other way IF they'd stayed together he woulda turned evil with feeling a moment of happiness, that's how strong their feelings were, he did understand her feelings.He has said they were two sides of the same coin, that's why. and IF you remember when he broke up with her in the sewer his plan was to do it gently but they both ended up in tears anyway. Even Buffy herself understood his reasons why, she says so to Willow.

I do agree with what you said:

The only growth Angel ever made was with the influence of Cordelia. Of all the major characters, Angel changed the least, he wasn't that much different from when he met Buffy until he took on the Senior partners. But he had changed, that was mostly due to Cordelia.

Thats was because she understood him better than Buffy ever could.
one last thing Buffy was sixteen when she met Angel, i'm sure of it, well you can correct that if you want if it isn't true lol.

 

[Jules]

I wasn't going to bite, but I can't seem to help myself.....So Dzhugashvili, I'm expecting your best come backs :silly:

Yes, for a period, Buffy used Spike. Let me use my experience to briefly shine a light into the inner confines of your ‘mind‘. Maybe, if only for a moment, I can enlighten your knowledge of Buffy using Spike, and the implications of that. When you use a person, as Buffy did do with Spike, in such an intimate setting, feelings grow. It is not your intent, it is not your desire, but it happens. You can fight against it, as Buffy did, but it is there. She began to care for Spike, and that flung her. She couldn’t begin to understand why she would care for something that she is supposed to detest. Even in her mind she began to wonder if it was love.

I personally doubt your own experiences have resulted in any type of feelings for anyone. I think your devoid of that gene...but that's irrelevant. I do think Buffy cared for Spike, but I don't think she was in love with him.

Chosen:
BUFFY: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?
ANGEL: Aha! Boyfriend!
BUFFY: He's not. But...he is in my heart.

BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.

On reflection I can only come to the conclusion that you have the intellect of an insect. I am shocked that I even bothered replying to your comments at all. If there is anything else about the Buffy tv show that you don’t understand, please pm me. My response will be short, concise, succinct, exact, I will leave no room for interpretation.

And based on your own completely biased view of the show 😛

Willow: (about Riley)He's not making you miserable?
That Angel made Buffy miserable is cleary a sign of their "true love"...

Dawn: She sure cries a lot less with you than she did with Angel.
Riley: (surprised) Angel ... made her cry a lot, huh?

Wow, what love.

Welcome to the world of adult relationships. Not everything is hearts and flowers, nothing ends the way you plan, people hurt each other. But that's relationships. You can't have intense love and not expect equally devastating pain. The Bangel relationship was passionate.

Riley and Buffy's relationship was safe. Xander explains that to Buffy at the beginning of season 5. She built a wall around her heart and she didn't let Riley in. The reason she didn't get all upset over Riley was because she didn't love him as much.

I'm not expecting you to understand that comment and I'm really looking forward to your attempt at a sarcastic remark...I need a laugh and you amuse me.

 

[Wicked]

I came in at the end here, but who's suggesting Buffy wasnt devastated about Riley? Thats bull.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Crap I'm a little late to this discussion, but I wanna play 🙂

Every princess needs her knight, the other half of the symbiotic circle to complete her.

Um... No. Nobody needs another person to "complete them".

I agree with Dzh, People are designed to be together.

A Princess must believe in her knight, and vice versa.
When Angel ran out on Buffy

True. But angel did not run out on Buffy. He saw that he couldn't give her the half of the symbiotic relationship he was supposed to. She couldn't have a normal life, with Kids and family picnics. He left her so she could have that life. Spike doesn't seem to consider this at all.

Buffy also trusted Angel to have a second wave ready if their attack on the first failed. - I think this was kinda lost in the finale, but there was a high chance they could have lost the battle with the first, they needed a back up plan and she trusted Angel to be that, without having to tell him what to do she just knew he could do it.
I do also realise that she trusted Spike to handle the amulet.

That growth of each half of that symbiotic circle, means growth of the whole.

From the time Angel began dating Buffy, to the time he left her and fled to LA had he changed much? We know he rejects humanity before he meets Buffy, he distances himself from people. Yet he has not changed all the way through the relationship and even after. Doyle explains it to him "But he's cut off. From every thing. From the people he's trying to help."
Angel: "I still save "˜em. Who cares if I don't stop to chat."

Angel when we first saw him, was completely different from the Angel we saw after he dated Buffy. In season 1 and season 2, Angel had no problem being in the background and not taking part. He even says in Welcome to the Hellmouth the reason he doesn't fight the master is cuz 'He's not strong enough'. He clearly doesn't have this opinion after he dates Buffy, He is stronger and more confident. He does grow.

Not much growth there. Buffy grew..more closed. Not allowing anyone in. Seems like Angel threw her backwards, and he stood still.

This is a common reaction to the break-up of a serious relationship. It wasn't just because it was Angel. Also Buffy had to close herself off, the next person she had to date would most likely have been a normal person, she had to protect her identity a little, she couldn't just go into the relationship and announce who she really was.

When Buffy has difficulty sharing her power with Faith when she is dating Angel, but learns to share it when she is with Spike, do we just assume there is not a connection there? That surely Spike helped her grow, gave her the strength,"Because of the strength that you gave me last night." that she needed for growth.

I really don't agree with this, At the time Buffy had problem sharing her power, she was also a 18 year old High Schooler. She wasn't just dating Angel. By the time she has learned to share her power she was older and had responsibilities not just to herself but to the lives of others.
Also it wasn't just Spike's doing that allowed her to realise she had to share her power, Her friends telling her she was acting wrong and kicking her out of her home, would also been a big wake up call.
But I do agree Spike played a part in her getting to that point, but it was not him alone that allowed her to reach there.

That when a knight stumbles his princess will set him steady, and when a princess falters her knight will set her true.

You offered up an Example for Spike and Buffy but again it's not the only example, There were ones with Angel and Buffy.
The very moment Angel say Buffy - he was set steady, without even talking to her he saw the good and he wanted to be a better "perpire".
Buffy goes insane from hearing other peoples thoughts in season 3, and it's Angel that helps her through. She need to have as much of a normal life as she can - He try's to let her have that.

That any form of sacrifice for one half of that circle means full acceptance that they are a symbiotic circle.

Again you only offer up a Spuffy example. Angel sacrifices up the love of his life, so she can have a normal life (The fact that he lost his soul is absolute proof that it was love)
Buffy sacrifices her own Blood to revive him (Grad. Day) even after he told her he was leaving.
Angel gave up his chance to Be Human, So Buffy wouldn't be alone in the fight against Evil.

And Spike, when he sacrifices his freedom for a soul.

Spike didn't really sacrifice anything, He was already unable to Kill humans. He didn't have freedom. His soul caused him 4 months of feeling bad - Angel felt that for year.
And I know That just means Spike was able to separate the two people, but I don't think he should have been able to do it so easily. Clearly the Vampire still has some of the characteristics of the person, the original person is part of them, just soulless.

"It seems odd to me that the purity of the Buffy and Spike relationship would ever be considered as anything other than a veritable completion of two souls destined to be joined as one, in unison."

Two souls that couldn't go very far, there's only a certain amount they could have developed together, Buffy's biological clock would start ticking, and Spike couldn't give her that. He couldn't give her the normal life she deserved, No daytime wedding, no attending parent teacher meetings. She would have had to live her life in the Dark - Angel was able to see this, and was able to try and give Buffy that life. Spike Couldn't, he wanted Buffy to love him, and he didn't think about the bigger picture, He didn't care.

Again we are agreed. After how terribly her relationship with Angel went.
BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship"” when you broke up with me or when I killed you?
That she highlights these points to Angel is not lost on Buffy or Angel. Their relationship was all about pain, and the highlight was these two incidents. They couldn't deal with their problems, which got to a point where their problems was bigger than the sum of their relationship, and it broke them up.

The fact that this is all brought up, and, at the end of the discussion they are still discussing, that they think of a future together, I think says something.

As for Buffy, Angel left Buffy a wreck. He gutted her, so deficient was he in understanding a human being, he offered love, Buffy felt pain.

Angel wasn't deficient at understanding a human being, If anything he understood it more then she did, as I said already, He knew what she was going to eventually want, and knew he couldn't give them to her.

Willow: (about Riley)He's not making you miserable?
That Angel made Buffy miserable is clearly a sign of their "true love"...

Dawn: She sure cries a lot less with you than she did with Angel.
Riley: (surprised) Angel ... made her cry a lot, huh?

Wow, what love.

Yep. The Bigger they are the harder they fall, same thing applies to love, the more of it you have the more it hurts. It's a balance and you can't have one without the other, perpetual happiness doesn't exist!

Then the old classics:

Angel shows up and Buffy is kissing him.
She tells Spike she loves him, and he says "No you don't"

Then there's what Spike said in Lovers Walk about Buffy and Angel:

You're *not* friends. You'll never be friends.
You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag,
and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be
friends. (points at his temple) Love isn't brains, children, it's
blood... (clasps his chest) blood screaming inside you to work its will.

Buffy and Angel love each other (Again the loss of Angels Should proves this) And their love is not something they can control, It's a part of them.
When Buffy dies, Angel goes into serious morning, And When he find out she's alive, the two drop everything and go to each other.
Buffy's mom dies, and Angel comes to Sunnydale asap, just to be there for her.
And he shows up in season 7 and she is kissing him, and thinking that she does sometimes think of a future with him.

And then in Season 5 of Angel, Spike comes back to life and he doesn't even let Buffy know. Because he can't top the 'exit in a blaze of fire, saving the word' - what does that say about him? That it's more important to him that she thinks of him as a hero, then alive!

 

[Frenchy Faith]

Wow wow... I know he can stand up for himself, but I still have to say cause I find this shocking, faithlehane... saying that Dzhugashvili has a tiny brain and is close minded is, in my opinion a weak argument of someone who doesn't know what to say and doesn't want to admit their defeat... now, I'm not saying I always agree with him, I used to disagree with him more than agree... but he IS clever so if he has a tiny brain then yours must be inexistant, and he's nowhere near close minded either... he has just his own opinions and will fight for them until someone can prove with a good argumentation that he is wrong... this is a board where you're supposed to discuss your opinion and stand up for them... you do it for your opinions, he does it for his... now I don't think you can reproach him that... and if you have strong beliefs then good for you, but that means you should even less reproach his point of view on the topic...

And on that one, I voted Bangel cause I find Bangel love cuter, like the impossible cute thing, I do think there's more to their relation than what Dzhu said... but I agree on what was said about Spike and Buffy and it's true that they did a lot for each other and wouldn't have grown without each other, for each other... and to some extent, it was more constructive.. mhm

 

[Schillaci]

I never said I wasnt a hipocrite, but the fact that you downed every single one of my thoughts, and some of the others, how close minded can you get, and I have solid belief, in my mind why spuffy would never work, but I didnt need to resort to downing all your thoughts just to make my point.

You do know what debate means, right?
I’d like to apologise for using such underhanded tactics like 'quoting the characters', and 'using plot points from the show' to back up my argument. Had I known that the idea of this topic was to make groundless assertions I would have neglected to comment. However, I’m concerned with retaining the integrity of the shows, it is not my desire to muddy the clear waters and divert attention from what I perceive to be the truth. I truly believe that maintaining the validity of the information presented on screen is important so that new members don’t have their perceptions tainted by fans that seem content to manipulate certain facts about the show to counter some emotional discord that they have in their own lives.

Um... No. Nobody needs another person to "complete them". Since the rest of your argument is based on this cornerstone I won't bother refuting the rest of it. Also, representing Buffy as a princess in need of a Knight seems very very contrary to one of the main themes of the show (female power and empowerment).

I tried to institute a simplistic idiom so the position that I was attempting to communicate might be better understood. Either I failed to communicate my position in a distinct and precise manner or you were unable to understand what I had written. That you were concerned with the definition of words I used confirms to me that you didn’t understand the points I was making. It is easy to substitute boyfriend/girlfriend or lover/lover with princess/knight. You apparently didn’t comprehend the connotations of using romantic terms to explain the nature of Buffy/Spike’s relationship and the subtlety of that idea. It is clearly not enough that I believe that Buffy and Spike were in love, I also unfortunately have to convince others of that.

Dzhugasvilli, while i Do understand where you are comming from that both Spike and Buffy's feelings did grow in time after she used him, i Don't get why you said:
Angel saw no other way IF they'd stayed together he woulda turned evil with feeling a moment of happiness, that's how strong their feelings were, he did understand her feelings.

At that time Angel believed that sex was the magic button which when pressed would have reverted him back to his evil self. This point has been argued and proven many, many times.

He has said they were two sides of the same coin, that's why. and IF you remember when he broke up with her in the sewer his plan was to do it gently but they both ended up in tears anyway. Even Buffy herself understood his reasons why, she says so to Willow.

I’m sure you have heard the phrase “love conquers all”? You have admitted, that in your opinion, Buffy and Angel did not believe their love was strong enough to defeat the problems that they had. They had problems, they couldn’t deal with them. To me, that doesn’t seem much like an all conquering true love. Seems more that they were resigned to the fact that they weren’t compatible.

I do agree with what you said:
Thats was because she understood him better than Buffy ever could.
one last thing Buffy was sixteen when she met Angel, i'm sure of it, well you can correct that if you want if it isn't true lol.

The first time Angel saw Buffy she was 15.

I wasn't going to bite, but I can't seem to help myself.....So Dzhugashvili, I'm expecting your best come backs :silly:

I personally doubt your own experiences have resulted in any type of feelings for anyone. I think your devoid of that gene...but that's irrelevant.

You blow your father with that mouth?

I do think Buffy cared for Spike, but I don't think she was in love with him.

Chosen:
BUFFY: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?
ANGEL: Aha! Boyfriend!
BUFFY: He's not. But...he is in my heart.

BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.

What? Is there some point you're making?

1 - Spike is insecure. It is a constant with his character. It's the reason he hides behind that whole bad boy leather coat persona. What would you have needed, for Spike to reply "I love you too"? What Cheeseball relationship did you think you were watching? It would have been rather embarrassing if season seven ended like a rehash of season 2.

And based on your own completely biased view of the show 😛

The Buffy Angel relationship is my second favourite relationship. I’m not biased.

Welcome to the world of adult relationships. Not everything is hearts and flowers, nothing ends the way you plan, people hurt each other. But that's relationships. You can't have intense love and not expect equally devastating pain. The Bangel relationship was passionate.

Riley and Buffy's relationship was safe. Xander explains that to Buffy at the beginning of season 5. She built a wall around her heart and she didn't let Riley in. The reason she didn't get all upset over Riley was because she didn't love him as much.

I'm not expecting you to understand that comment and I'm really looking forward to your attempt at a sarcastic remark...I need a laugh and you amuse me.

The fun has left our sadomasochistic relationship, you'll have to go back to asking your 'boyfriend' to beat on you.

If you want to see real Bias, just read BEG'S post.

I shouldn't even reply to you, mate.

True. But angel did not run out on Buffy. He saw that he couldn't give her the half of the symbiotic relationship he was supposed to. She couldn't have a normal life, with Kids and family picnics. He left her so she could have that life. Spike doesn't seem to consider this at all.

Buffy was the slayer, prior to Chosen she had no chance at a normal life. Slayers generally had a very low life expectancy. Early twenties at best. It is a genuine miracle that Buffy is alive when her thing with Spike started up. Had it not been for Willow resurrecting Buffy, then Angel’s “sacrifice” would have been for nought. He left her to die alone. That’s the reality of it. It doesn’t matter that his intentions were noble, the decision was not insightful. Angel looked into the future under the delusion that Buffy was a normal girl.

Spike had the perspicaciousness necessary to understand that Buffy wasn't a normal girl. Prior to Chosen Buffy could never have had a normal life. Spike knew this. He gave his life to protect her. To be her champion.

When he thought that his being close to Buffy could endanger her or her mission, he offered to leave.

SPIKE: It, uh, it talked to the little boy. Said it wasn't time for me yet. I should move out. Leave town before it is time for me.
BUFFY: No, you have to stay.
2 - Spike being the insecure character that he is, believes she is talking about needing his strength for the battle.
SPIKE: You've got another demon fighter now.
BUFFY: That's not why I need you here.

Buffy also trusted Angel to have a second wave ready if their attack on the first failed. - I think this was kinda lost in the finale, but there was a high chance they could have lost the battle with the first, they needed a back up plan and she trusted Angel to be that, without having to tell him what to do she just knew he could do it.

:Rolleyes: cough......
Buffy wanted rid of Angel because she doesn't want to deal with "jealous vampire crap".

Angel when we first saw him, was completely different from the Angel we saw after he dated Buffy. In season 1 and season 2, Angel had no problem being in the background and not taking part. He even says in Welcome to the Hellmouth the reason he doesn't fight the master is cuz 'He's not strong enough'. He clearly doesn't have this opinion after he dates Buffy, He is stronger and more confident. He does grow.

Angel is emotionally stunted. Spending a large part of 100 years avoiding humans leaves him in an inadequate place to deal with Buffy. Do you remember this line from AYNOHYEB "Take them all."

Or this scene from Orpheus.
FAITH: He was going to save him.
ANGELUS: Or did he choose to be a little slow on the draw? Whoops! Dinner by armed robbery. Look at him, Faith. You’re a murderer. You know just how good that blurry line tastes. You didn’t think my hell was private, did ya?

Buffy was the first human Angel had real contact with in years. You really think he was in a good place to deal with a hormonal 16 year old time bomb? What other human did Angel spend any quality time with in the three years he and Buffy dated?

Now, when Angel went to LA with Cordy he grew. She drew that humanity out of him like no other person had.

I really don't agree with this, At the time Buffy had problem sharing her power, she was also a 18 year old High Schooler. She wasn't just dating Angel. By the time she has learned to share her power she was older and had responsibilities not just to herself but to the lives of others.
Also it wasn't just Spike's doing that allowed her to realise she had to share her power, Her friends telling her she was acting wrong and kicking her out of her home, would also been a big wake up call.
But I do agree Spike played a part in her getting to that point, but it was not him alone that allowed her to reach there.

Spike played a bigger part than anyone else around Buffy at that time. Surely you must see that? Spike helped Buffy grow, and vice versa.

You offered up an Example for Spike and Buffy but again it's not the only example, There were ones with Angel and Buffy.
The very moment Angel say Buffy - he was set steady, without even talking to her he saw the good and he wanted to be a better "perpire".
Buffy goes insane from hearing other peoples thoughts in season 3, and it's Angel that helps her through. She need to have as much of a normal life as she can - He try’s to let her have that.

In your first example Buffy has no interaction with Angel. Your second example does not fit into that category either. That is not the type of support I was talking about. Or we could list hundreds of actions from all the characters that helped Buffy/and or Angel. Spike was Buffy's emotional support and she his mental strength.

Again you only offer up a Spuffy example. Angel sacrifices up the love of his life, so she can have a normal life (The fact that he lost his soul is absolute proof that it was love)
Buffy sacrifices her own Blood to revive him (Grad. Day) even after he told her he was leaving.
Angel gave up his chance to Be Human, So Buffy wouldn't be alone in the fight against Evil.

Oh obviously Angel and Buffy were deeply in love. Angel breaks up with Buffy because they cannot solve their problems. There is no normal life for Buffy at this stage. The first two aren't sacrifices. I would agree the last one is, but I'd like to watch that episode before I made a comment.

Spike didn't really sacrifice anything, He was already unable to Kill humans. He didn't have freedom. His soul caused him 4 months of feeling bad - Angel felt that for year.
And I know That just means Spike was able to separate the two people, but I don't think he should have been able to do it so easily. Clearly the Vampire still has some of the characteristics of the person, the original person is part of them, just soulless.

Spike didn't sacrifice anything by getting a soul?:looking: Sigh... Is this the part of your post where everything beyond it is completely irrational?

Two souls that couldn't go very far, there's only a certain amount they could have developed together, Buffy's biological clock would start ticking, and Spike couldn't give her that. He couldn't give her the normal life she deserved, No daytime wedding, no attending parent teacher meetings. She would have had to live her life in the Dark - Angel was able to see this, and was able to try and give Buffy that life. Spike Couldn't, he wanted Buffy to love him, and he didn't think about the bigger picture, He didn't care.

You've mentioned this twice now. Looks like I was right on, with that irrationality estimate.

The fact that this is all brought up, and, at the end of the discussion they are still discussing, that they think of a future together, I think says something.

Years.. If Ever.

Angel wasn't deficient at understanding a human being, If anything he understood it more then she did, as I said already, He knew what she was going to eventually want, and knew he couldn't give them to her.

Stuck on that loop?

Yep. The Bigger they are the harder they fall, same thing applies to love, the more of it you have the more it hurts. It's a balance and you can't have one without the other, perpetual happiness doesn't exist!

How about at least a little happiness?
A smidgen.. a smile?

Then the old classics:

Angel shows up and Buffy is kissing him.
She tells Spike she loves him, and he says "No you don't"

Then there’s what Spike said in Lovers Walk about Buffy and Angel:


Buffy and Angel love each other (Again the loss of Angels Should proves this) And their love is not something they can control, It's a part of them.
When Buffy dies, Angel goes into serious morning, And When he find out she's alive, the two drop everything and go to each other.
Buffy's mom dies, and Angel comes to Sunnydale asap, just to be there for her.
And he shows up in season 7 and she is kissing him, and thinking that she does sometimes think of a future with him.

Yeah, Angel went into serious mourning...
ANGEL: That I'm okay. That losing Buffy didn't kill me. That I could deal with it.

And then in Season 5 of Angel, Spike comes back to life and he doesn't even let Buffy know. Because he can't top the 'exit in a blaze of fire, saving the word' - what does that say about him? That it's more important to him that she thinks of him as a hero, then alive!

3 - For the third time. Spike is an insecure character. It is a constant of his character that he is insecure. Even when he was without soul.

 

[Jules]

You blow your father with that mouth?

Yeah, and my brother :whatever:

What? Is there some point you're making?

1 - Spike is insecure. It is a constant with his character. It's the reason he hides behind that whole bad boy leather coat persona. What would you have needed, for Spike to reply "I love you too"? What Cheeseball relationship did you think you were watching? It would have been rather embarrassing if season seven ended like a rehash of season 2.

I'm sorry, I must have over estimated your intelligence by thinking you might be able to understand me just stating the quotes.

Buffy doesn't dispute Spike's point. Irrelevant of Spike's insecurities Buffy doesn't say he's wrong....and seriously, saying 'Your wrong' would not have delayed her escape by all of a second. She just doesn't love him.

The fun has left our sadomasochistic relationship, you'll have to go back to asking your 'boyfriend' to beat on you.

If you want to see real Bias, just read BEG'S post.

I shouldn't even reply to you, mate.

Aww, hunnie, its as if you don't have a decent reply to my comments...I'm suprised after all the insulting ways you usually address my opinions.....

Buffy was the slayer, prior to Chosen she had no chance at a normal life. Slayers generally had a very low life expectancy. Early twenties at best. It is a genuine miracle that Buffy is alive when her thing with Spike started up. Had it not been for Willow resurrecting Buffy, then Angel's "sacrifice" would have been for nought. He left her to die alone. That's the reality of it. It doesn't matter that his intentions were noble, the decision was not insightful. Angel looked into the future under the delusion that Buffy was a normal girl.

Angel left Buffy to die alone??? Why, were Xander, Willow and Giles planning on leaving Sunnydale? Did Joyce move out? Gosh, I must have missed that. Angel left Buffy because he thought it was the right thing to do. Angel was trapping her in a relationship that had no where else to go. She needed to grow into an adult. Angel left Buffy with her friends, in an environment she was used to. She had slayed in Sunnydale for 3 years.

 

[Wilkins]

I'm just surprised! Angel has more votes than Spike.

 

[Schillaci]

Aww, hunnie, its as if you don't have a decent reply to my comments...I'm suprised after all the insulting ways you usually address my opinions.....

You're lucky I replied to your comments at all.

Buffy doesn't dispute Spike's point. Irrelevant of Spike's insecurities Buffy doesn't say he's wrong....and seriously, saying 'Your wrong' would not have delayed her escape by all of a second. She just doesn't love him.

Yeah, because that scenario is so plausible... Would have made great tv too....

Buffy: Spike, oh spike, you're wrong, I do love you
Spike: (sings) Don't believe you
Buffy: Dude, seriously, I do
Spike covers his ears.
Scene!

Angel left Buffy to die alone??? Why, were Xander, Willow and Giles planning on leaving Sunnydale? Did Joyce move out? Gosh, I must have missed that. Angel left Buffy because he thought it was the right thing to do. Angel was trapping her in a relationship that had no where else to go. She needed to grow into an adult. Angel left Buffy with her friends, in an environment she was used to. She had slayed in Sunnydale for 3 years.

I'm not explaining it to you, that you didn't understand is not my problem. The implication of my comment is obvious.

 

[Jules]

You're lucky I replied to your comments at all.

Yes, I consider myself blessed that you took the time to write that....even if it didn't actually address any comment.

Yeah, because that scenario is so plausible... Would have made great tv too....

Buffy: Spike, oh spike, you're wrong, I do love you
Spike: (sings) Don't believe you
Buffy: Dude, seriously, I do
Spike covers his ears.
Scene!

And we can tell from that that you wouldn't make it as a script writter.

How about:
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.
BUFFY: Your wrong (They gaze at each other, Spike smiles slightly, then Buffy lets go of his hand)
SPIKE: Now go! (Buffy runs up the stairs) I wanna see how it ends.

I'm not explaining it to you, that you didn't understand is not my problem. The implication of my comment is obvious.

Right, but isn't that the point you keep trying to make to people. When someone doesn't agree with you, you pull their opinions to pieces rather rudely. Your loosing your touch.

I know the episode, but I'm still missing your point. Are you saying that Angel let Buffy die on her own because after her death he found out he could live without her and didn't choose to die with her? What did you think you were watching....Romeo & Juliette?

There's Angel's growth of character (that you like to point out he didn't have). The first 3 years on Buffy he existed for Buffy. He was practically nothing without her. He moves to LA and grows and develops as a person. he can continue with only her memory and can still fight the good fight.

If that's not what you mean then your going to have to explain your comment...unless you can't.

 

[zombie.apparatus]

cheers for Spuffy! *sorry* how the heck is Angel winning.. "His hair goes straight up, and he's bloody stupid"

Spike and Buffy in the tree... K - I - S - S - I - N - G... :silly:

 

[Schillaci]

Yes, I consider myself blessed that you took the time to write that....even if it didn't actually address any comment.

Perhaps because your comments are genuinely ludicrous. I have answered "your" questions so many times before, in a logical manner, and I now know that there is just no reasoning with some people. You and many others all circulate the same opinions, there is nothing original or insightful in your questions.

And we can tell from that that you wouldn't make it as a script writter.

How about:
BUFFY: I love you.
SPIKE: No, you don't. But thanks for saying it.
BUFFY: Your wrong (They gaze at each other, Spike smiles slightly, then Buffy lets go of his hand)
SPIKE: Now go! (Buffy runs up the stairs) I wanna see how it ends.

Ok, so we'll go with your analysis then, right?
Buffy doesn't love Spike.
What does that mean, in the bigger picture?
Buffy is the lead character in a tv show essentially about female empowerment.
In its final season, in its final episode(an episode that saw Buffy kill a misogynistic priest), the lead character with basically her final words, decides to lie..to a man..(a man that had tried to rape her)... to make him feel better.

Plausible? no.
But you will argue it nonetheless.

Right, but isn't that the point you keep trying to make to people. When someone doesn't agree with you, you pull their opinions to pieces rather rudely. Your loosing your touch.

No. I find it a little odd that you are willing me to 'attack' your points. It seems like you enjoy getting beat down, and I do not wish to satisfy that peculiar urge.

I know the episode, but I'm still missing your point. Are you saying that Angel let Buffy die on her own because after her death he found out he could live without her and didn't choose to die with her? What did you think you were watching....Romeo & Juliette?

I didn't liken it to Romeo and Juliet. A bangel fan did, a page back. Good going, not only are you claiming my opinion is wrong, you are saying theirs is as well.

There's Angel's growth of character (that you like to point out he didn't have). The first 3 years on Buffy he existed for Buffy. He was practically nothing without her. He moves to LA and grows and develops as a person. he can continue with only her memory and can still fight the good fight.

Don't ever lie about something I have written. I said Angel did grow, with the help of Cordelia. I think most fans can see this. There was very little growth when Angel was with Buffy.

If that's not what you mean then your going to have to explain your comment...unless you can't.

Angel and Buffy have the big "true wuv". Angel must know that Slayers have a low life expectancy. He didn't leave her so she could live a normal life(because she couldn't), he left her knowing slayers die young. He didn't want to see it happen?

 

[Hel]

I like her couple with Spike a lot.

 

[mogwaid]

I voted for Bangel...mainly because Angel was cute in season 1, and Spike's love seem to come out of obsession. And Riley, my god, dont get me started on him.

 

[white avenger]

As for the Angel/Spike debate (let's just forget that Riley ever was on the show!), I will conceed to the argument that Angel was Buffy's first serious love, and as such, aside from the whole "trying to destroy the world so she had to shove a sword in his chest and send him to hell" thing, he was probably the perfect introduction into the world of romance. With his curse and all, and her "my sacred duty is to slay your kind, but I just can't do it because you're so tall and dark and mysterious and broody" thing, they even become the classic starcrossed lovers, fated to forever reach out to each other, but cursed to never really touch. It could've been written by Shakespere. Angel was as much Buffy's teacher and mentor as Giles ever was.

Angel was Buffy's first love, and always will be. Unfortunately, we very seldom get to spend our lives with our first loves. A thing called growing up and seeing the world without our rose colored glasses takes place.

In Spike, Buffy found a mortal enemy who eventualy became her champion and a partner with the soul of a poet, the heart of a warrior, and the ferocity of a pit bulldog with hemorroids. Granted, there was that whole rape thing that everyone loves to bring up, but he never slaughtered Giles' girlfriend and tried to end the world either. Also, he never left Buffy, either for her own good or his own after he fell in love with her, except to go and get that soul, and that was over the summer haitus anyway, so it really doesn't count. Spike remained faithful to Buffy even when her best friends deserted her. In the final and greatest fight of her life, he stood beside her to the bitter end and beyond, while Angel just "stopped by for a quicky" (he accepted that "second front" line without a whole lot of argument, even though the amulet had to be worn by someone "more than human, but with a soul." As far as he knew, he was the only one who fit that description, and he just strolled back to LA without very much of an argument. Imagine Spike being that easy to keep out of a real fight.)

Now, I said all that to say this: in case you haven't figured out just where all this is going, my choise for Buffy's one true love is, was, and always will be, Spike. (Oh, and for all you folks out there who are still hung up on that "first love" thing, consider this: William was infatuated with Cecily and obsessed with Drusilla. His first real love was Buffy.)

 

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

Granted, there was that whole rape thing that everyone loves to bring up, but he never slaughtered Giles' girlfriend and tried to end the world either. Also, he never left Buffy, either for her own good or his own after he fell in love with her, except to go and get that soul, and that was over the summer haitus anyway, so it really doesn't count.

when angel slaughtered jenny and attempted world destruction, he was soulless. true, so was spike, but spike had already proven that even without a soul he could do good things because of his love for buffy. for instance, when glory had him captive, he couldve told her dawn was the key and he mightve gotten away, but he didnt sell her out, because he knew how bad that would be. when buffy died, he took care of dawn for her, etc. he had capabilities and willingness to do good things and make good judgements, and he still raped buffy. and saying when he was gone was a hiatus for us does not really count. buffy was still around, likely wondering where he'd gone off to, at least in the beginning. just cause we didnt see it, doesnt mean it "doesnt count" as a time when he left her. if clem hadnt been there when she went to leave dawn with spike, buffy wouldnt have had anyone to leave her with.

i personally like angel with buffy, and im not sure if that's what this argument is geared to. it seems it is, but really it is just my comments on what was said 🙂.

EDIT: let me rephrase that last part. for angel, i think buffy should be with him. with buffy, im still a bit torn and undecided. however, my argument still does seem more rooting for angel.