We can see it like that on one side, but when they are together we must not forget that Buffy is 16-17 years old, she does not yet know how life is going. End of season 2, she kills Angel, and there she begins to grow but it is not necessarily enough. She still has a casual side even though she has acquired responsibility.They are the perfect definition of first love, idealized over time due to certain factors and of course they will always have a special place in each other's hearts, that's natural. But it doesn't go any further for me. Because personally I KNOW that Buffy and Spike are made for each other
I want to believe that true love is based on knowing and accepting each other, where you push and allow the other to be better. And I want to believe that it's this kind of love that wins ... Maybe I'm an idealist, but when I see a relationship like this under my nose, I can decently do nothing but
Then it's not the fact that Angel is moping that makes me belittle the Bangel or the character of Angel in BTVS. It is true that this is a point that tends to annoy me, but it is not the main reason for my disenchantment with the couple. For me, there is usually a lot of negative about Buffy and Angel's relationship in general, which, in a way, is a shame for them. This is ultimately why it remains an impossible love story. Not necessarily because of the curse but quite simply because the obstacles are internal to the couple, namely a very clear lack of communication, exchange, understanding, trust, knowledge of the other ... Finally, I think that we stayed too much on the surface with this relationship (they were too omnubilated by the fact that they could not be together that in the end, they forgot everything else). For me, true love shouldn't be limited to this kind of stuff (curse, impossibility ... => when you really want, you can ...). Look at people who have AIDS or serious illnesses that obstruct their possibility of being physically together: if they really love each other, they can overcome it ...
And it's not because we hyperintensified their story, or that we made them cry, or that we were injected with endless melodrama with "I love you" every 10 seconds (I'm exaggerating eh ^^) that it was more powerful or more true. On the contrary, by wanting to do too much, it ultimately harmed them (I would use the expression: it is those who say the most who do the least).
And there is also the fact that I have the impression that this story only manages to "work" when it floats six feet above our heads, in an extra-supra apocalyptic context just to keep them emotionally in tip-top shape. -top of the dramatic so that it does not become monotonous and that the fantasy is maintained as it should, and that is not love for me ... A real couple that works and is viable, it is a couple who keeps themselves alone with nothing but the things of life to face together.
That's why I can't believe this story. Besides the fact that I find them very mismatched (honestly, they don't give me anything ), that is not * my * definition of true love, but of course, it only engages me. I think anyway that everyone will be receptive differently depending on their own experience and their own expectations. Well me, Bangel, niet. No more no less
I know I'm repeating myself, but when you see them say: "I love you", "Me too". I just want to say: ok ... so what? I would ask them what do they like in each other  I mean, this kind of relationship where we are supposed to see love because we are told that it is there, well, no, Personally, I don't walk. And as for the principle of soul mates, by the way, I don't believe it for a second, so at least it's settled And even if I had to believe it, I wouldn't attribute it to the Bangel, so that change nothing.
Regarding now the Spuffy in season 6, well, I love their relationship as much in season 6 as in season 7, it's a fact, whether we have a hard time understanding it or not.
Well, already a trick:
But woaaaaa, excuse me for not liking Spike and Buffy who send each other like rabbits, Buffy who uses him, and Spike who ends up raping her ...
Well, that on the other hand, it annoys me. It was still an * attempted * rape! I hate that we take this "shortcut", especially on such a sensitive subject.
Then their relationship in season 6 had an unhealthy foundation. That's clear. And that's why they needed a revival in season 7, in order to relearn how to share a healthy relationship, full of trust, more based on respect and love. Because in Season 7, they learned the meaning of the word * forgive *. Both Buffy and Spike showed one of their most terrible sides in Season 6, and that's what makes their story all the stronger afterwards, because they were able to * get over * that and be able to say "I love you" beyond what they had been through.
Their relationship in season 6, I think it's wrong to see only sex. It's a complex relationship, yes, but not purely sexual. Because the feelings are there, and that, I do not let go. Their relationship at the start of the season had started off really well, in the sense that Spike was there for her and understood her better than anyone during that time. Their scenes are just adorable and dripping with sexual tension, but in short  We can already see that she had a tendency to turn to him whenever something went wrong, and at first, it was not for sex! Just because he knew how to listen to her and also because she trusted him (to open up to someone in this way, it's clear and clean !!). We remind you that this confidence is precisely what she had given him in the 5x18, "The Quest", then in a more pronounced way in the 5x22, by inviting her to her home again.
But it is only from the moment when they * start * to sleep together that Buffy cuts herself off and closes herself completely, it is a little she who did everything to make this relationship seem devoid of feelings.
And that (the fact that it closes) is not for nothing ... As I have said many times, she was far too lost / stunned following her return from the dead to do, feel or undertake anything at the sentimental level. Already she had trouble with her own sister at this level ... Emotionally, she was lost and stuck in a rather chaotic circle. She was using her relationship with Spike to feel, to feel alive, because ultimately she was just a shadow of herself on so many levels. And it allowed him to disconnect a little from his life and from reality. Willow chose magic as an escape, Alex chose denial as an escape, Dawn chose kleptomania as an escape, and Buffy chose Spike as an escape.
I think it's also important to point out that Buffy and Spike were both underdogs during this season, in the sense that neither of them found their place in this world: Buffy neither felt nor alive, not dead; Spike was neither a human nor a vampire, and was rejected on both sides. They could not find their place, this is precisely what they swing in the face in the 6x09, "Wrecked":
Spike: "Poor lost little girl, she doesn't belong anywhere"
Buffy: "Poor Spikey, he's not human, but he's not a vampire, can you tell me where she belongs ?!"
And finally, well, between lost, they found each other and brought comfort to each other through sex; the only thing that was accessible to them at that time, especially on Buffy's side given the * context * (it remained a question of context in season 6 for Buffy, with all the problems that fell on her at the same time).
But where it gets interesting (although I find that already, just in relation to that, it is), is that it's not just that! It's much more complex than: "I feel bad, let's sleep together to forget". Buffy clearly has feelings for Spike, and Spike is deeply in love with Buffy, but considering the fact that he swings between two shores, well, he doesn't always have the right attitudes. The most obvious example remains that of Katrina: he is in love with Buffy, so logical, he wants to protect her and is scared to death at the idea of seeing her surrender to the police. But what is he doing? He throws Katrina into the water. The intention is not bad, but the reaction is clumsy.
Spike rocks between good and bad, between a human side and a vampire side, it remains nuanced, as it should be.
And then, on Buffy's side, it's a total fiasco. She hates herself, she feels bad about herself, so logical, her relationship with Spike suffered. She was projecting everything she saw bad in herself onto him. And in this context, it was quite self-destructive.
Now, like I said, Buffy * has * feelings for Spike. It is only full of paradoxes, it assumes nothing. Already, on the one hand, I think that Spike brought him one thing: he loved her despite everything he saw of her, but she, paradoxically, did not want to be loved Psychologically, beyond coming for sex, I think she was also looking to * be loved * "Tell me you love me. Tell me you want me", in the 6x15, then as soon as she was, she rejected him violently afterwards, because on the other hand, she hated herself. And there is always this mirror game between her and Spike ...
Not to mention the other paradoxes! She says she doesn't trust Spike? Biiieeenn. Let's go back in time:
In these scenes, precisely, she gave him full confidence. She even entrusts him with the life of her own sister, and Spike remains 147 days or 5 months to honor his promise. He never failed and gave her no reason to doubt himself. So when Buffy tells him: "Never" when he asks her to trust him, don't you think that sounds wrong? But it remains in the tradition of his character in season 6. She is lost and refuses to admit anything. Besides, the handcuffs he offered her, she accepted them anyway, something that we are shown the next day:
Ditto, Buffy tells him he's just a monster (and I personally think it's the better to keep him away and cut himself off from him), whereas some time ago:
She treated him like a man.
And with that, Buffy supposedly has no feelings ...
But too many of her reactions tend to prove the opposite, it's just that in the middle of a depression, well, she is not enough herself to really realize it. She's already in constant struggle to survive since her return, in constant struggle to try to escape this uneasiness that inhabits her and does not leave her, and yeah, impossible to escape unharmed. His friends, it was easy for them: they brought him back, and she, she has to bear the consequences behind with Spike. Again because, despite the trying relationship they've faced in this season, Buffy has only allowed Spike to see the worst side of her, she has allowed him to see her depression in the foreground. . And turning to him for that was not a random choice! Already at the start of the season, she was turning to him, and it was NOT for sex.Sex is just a part that came to be grafted (until replaced) thereafter. Spike always listened to her and she knew she wouldn't be judged.
The physical attraction that eventually peaked in the 6x09 was also there from the start, and unfortunately Buffy cut herself out of that relationship far too much afterwards, for all the reasons I mentioned. But it was she who chose him, because she did not want to assume this image quite simply. Let's take a closer look at the episode "The Invisible Woman", don't you think she looks more 'fulfilled'? She still lets herself be really more alive, perhaps precisely because in the literal as well as in the figurative sense, she feels rid of her image, rid of the standards which require that the Slayer is a perfect little woman who kicks her buttocks to vampires instead of sleeping with them. She feels freed from the burden of society, she feels * good * and she turns to ... Spike! Either way, she feels good with him. She even dares things and takes risks under Alex's nose (not was-was on this one the Alex anyway). She just feels more free to do whatever she wants, and she doesn't mind being with Spike. Even if it is clear that it remains a flight of responsibilities in a sense.
But the feelings were there. The details are scattered throughout the season, but they are there. The "We only hurt the ones we love" that she says to Scooby as she thinks about Spike, the pain it feels to see him with another girl at the wedding, her reaction when Spike takes her out: "You cried ?" in Drifting, when they're in the graveyard and Buffy blocks a moment: "What ?!" (Okay, it's still a question of interpretation, but in my opinion, at the time, she must have thought that he was talking about their breakup, and given his reaction, it's clear that it must not have passed all alone after she left him ...), not to mention her reaction when she saw that he slept with Anya !!! She tells him to move on, and mash, she's still damn * hurt * emotionally when she sees this scene, to the point where even Dawn realizes what happened between them. And she ends up saying it clearly: "I have feelings for you, I admit it. But it is not love. I would never trust you enough to love you".
It is interesting to note here that she underlines a problem of trust ...
And in season 7, she proclaims it clearly and precisely. She had and still has feelings for him.
So no, their relationship in Season 6 wasn't all sex, and I find it extremely reductive to consider the opposite. It's eclipsing tons of parameters in their relationship, and that's a huge shame.
For the attempted rape, it is an extremely sensitive subject, and once again, as I do not like to let this subject go, I am repeating the opinion that I had put on another forum, at least that allows to clearly express the way I perceived the thing:
Spike has a part of humanity, it's a point of view that I defend and that I continue to defend, and this one is especially centered on his faculty to love, his capacity to feel feelings, to fall in love. This is how it is a bit of a special case, a peculiarity / anomaly in vampires, but it is also where the attempted rape is made more emotionally violent. Because it is not the first vampire around, nor a demon in the pure state, it is * Spike *, who * is * in love with her, and this is where the attempted rape is made. more disturbing / disturbing / unbearable.
Precisely because he has this human side. And I think that's why we still keep talking about it. If it was about Angelus, it would have been said: demon, brr, mean, sadistic, period - just as we never blamed the death of Jenny to Angel.
With Spike, it's bound to be different. But he is not completely human despite everything. He keeps a dark side, he keeps certain 'manias' of vampires, a vision of things quite shaken up by this aspect that is neither really good / nor really bad, and despite his human side, the demon is always in him, somewhere (it joins what I say very often, namely that Spike was really in a 'middle ground' in seasons 5 and 6, and that he needed a little orientation). No matter how much he's changed, he might be in love with Buffy, there are still things he doesn't understand. What brings him closer to humanity are his feelings for Buffy: when she suffers, he hurts for her, when he sees her sad, he hates it and comes to comfort her; he would be ready to die so as not to see her suffer ... etc. Empathy, compassion, love, sometimes tenderness, these are things that he shouldn't be able to feel as a vampire. Ditto, following the attempted rape, he feels guilty, he is consumed with remorse, he blames himself, he is angry ... Guilt? Another human characteristic!
He says he is neither a man nor a vampire, and that is the whole heart of the "problematic" Spikan in season 5 and 6. He has one foot in humans, and one foot in humans. demons.
His human side pushes him to do the best he can for love, allows him to be in love with the woman he loves, to protect those she loves, to become attached to Dawn, to Joyce. His vampire side leads him to do some real bullshit, and not seeing * where * the limits a human is supposed to be.
That's why he throws Katerina to the fleet: he's in love with Buffy, he wants to protect her, but the intention is awkward. And he does a thousand times worse still: he is in love with Buffy, he wants to be with her, suffers from no longer having her by his side, and there, precisely, his demon side emerges to get what he wants and he crosses the insurmountable limit. I also think this attempt was the result of their complex relationship in season 6, in which Buffy was not at all clear: "No, I don't trust you", but all of her actions prove otherwise; "Go on, move on!" - he sleeps with Anya, she is hurt as hell; "No, I don't love you" - and then, a little later: "I have feelings for you, I admit it". These elements do not justify his act, but they are elements that must also be taken into account to better understand his state of mind ...
I specify that I do not put 'feelings' in the attempted rape in itself, but of course on the initial intention, the impulse that had pushed him to go towards her. We cannot eclipse the sentimental dimension in this attempt, because not even 10 seconds before committing this atrocious and monstrous act, Spike speaks to him well of feelings and love. It is a dimension that * is * present. His human side pushes him to want to be with her, we see the hurt man behind the lyrics at the beginning, when he comes to see her, and his demonic side pushed him to cross the line and cross the limit that would never have had to be.
That's why he's completely turned around when he comes back to his crypt: the man in him is crazy about her, the demon in him has hurt the woman he loves. And I imagine how bad he must have felt after that! How upset he must be at the idea. It remains a monstrous act that only a monster could commit, and it is indeed the monster that remained lurking in him that committed it. Because he was unaware of the limits.
And that's why he chooses the * human * side, wanting to get his soul back. He decides to no longer be the kind of person capable of hurting the woman he's in love with, he wants to leave this "neither-man / nor-vampire" in-between, he considered himself to be "nothing". He chooses to reclaim his soul, to finally become a man. There is a form of desire for redemption, and besides, I find that from Spike's point of view, the consequences were very well addressed in season 7 ... to "No, you don't" in Chosen. Because he thought he didn't deserve anything after what he had done to her, he didn't think he deserved her love, he blamed himself a lot. He expected nothing more from her. In short, I will not dwell on the subject more than that, perhaps on another occasion. In the meantime, at the end of season 6:
Buffy returns to the light, to humanity, and does the same to him on her side ... He eradicates the 'demonic' part in him (even if of course, physically speaking, he remains a vampire), he reclaims his humanity. He eliminates the part of him that had gone so far as to hurt the woman he loves. And that's why we can no longer really hold Spike responsible in season 7 for the act he had committed at the end of season 6 ... The evil part that had pushed him to such an act n 'doesn't exist anymore. And I think Buffy saw it in a similar way.
The attempted rape remains a horrible act, impossible to condone, it's a very delicate subject to broach, but I don't like to overshadow it and pretend that this scene had never been there because it's part of the story of the couple, and the character of Spike. It's part of the complexity of their relationship, and it's something I love. I just keep a definite interpretation and perception of this scene. There is an emotional context, and a way of approaching the scene I think ... Everyone is free to find the one that will resonate the most with him.
In short, it joins the outsider side that I mentioned at the beginning for Spike & Buffy. We saw these man / demon sides in Spike during this attempt.
Season 7 is a rebirth. Relearn how to start again on a good basis. They establish a real bond of trust, love, they BELIEVE in each other, push each other to be better, develop a dependent relationship (and I found that wonderful by the way), understand each other and above all, they have * forgiven * each other (they haven't been put off by everything they've been through together). They forgave each other and they forgave themselves. And the best in all of this? They fall in love / love each other despite what they have seen of each other. What is technically called: knowingly falling in love. To me, it rings true, it rings true and it's louder than anything else.
I find they are totally made for each other. I don't know how to put it, but I find it borderline marked on their foreheads. They just need to appear on the screen together, to be seen interacting, for me to think about it. It's pretty crazy, because no fictitious couple has ever generated this at home ...
In short yes, to sum it all up, their relationship in season 6 is hard to follow, but I personally find it fascinating, interesting, complex, adult and I love it as much as the one in season 7. Because looking at it closer, it is a real gold mine. Emotionally, it is really trying. But there is something to dig and there is something to find. It's part of their story and it helps make their story stronger, because the trials they had to face were real, and they overcame them.
it's creepy, it's unhealthy, it's disturbing and I can't find anything beautiful in all of this
I must be creepy, unhealthy and disturbed to love, but I love
Well, sorry to have been so long, but I wanted to tackle it ... ^^
Now in season 5, first thing she does is ask Giles to teach her everything that makes her mission, her boyfriend leaves after getting sucked off by vampires, her mother is dead, she must take care of his little sister who is a key and save her at all costs against a Goddess. Finally she dies.
She's not the same Buffy anymore and it's normal that she doesn't live in a relationship like when she was 17 years old. Does that mean her relationship with Angel was less serious? I do not think so. He's coming for Joyce's funeral, he's there for her and they still have a bond. Despite the fact that each has their own life, they are still there for each other. When Buffy returns in season 6 one of the first things she does that she's comfortable with is going to see Angel (and I'm dying to know what they said to each other) )
As for Spike, admittedly it was only an attempt, but this season is no less disturbing. Basically it is because they are both dees "outcasts" that they understand each other and that they hurt each other? out at least in this season. In this season neither has taken into account the feelings of the other do you not agree? Buffy knows how Spike feels and she uses it as a Sex Toy, when to Spike he knows that she feels for him something other than physical attraction although she denies it but he still tries to rape her.
And the same way, at first, when Spike has a dream and he's like "I'm in love with the Slayer" the first thing he does is make love (if you can call it that. ) to Harmony telling her to put on a wig and say, "I'm the killer."
And then again I forgot the Buffybot
But between the story of the BuffyBot and the moment when they start to relieve themselves all over the place, it's nice.
