Buffy/Angel - which is the best journey of a hero/champion?

[Carrie Hopewell]

One of the most significant arcs of BtVS and AtS concerns the hero/champion's journey of the titular characters.

Buffy's arc in s7 was very much about her isolating herself, becoming more imune to everyone else's opinions/feelings ("I am the law."), essentially as a way to face the battle ahead of her. Her often inconsiderate behavior led to a "revolt" in Empty Places, her lack of empathy toward Xander (an act mostly) and unreasonable empathy toward Spike alienated her friends and seemed OOC, her "handling" of the potentials was far more cruel than it had to be, the activating spell would have horrified Buffy just two seasons before.

An unfortunate part of Buffy's story was how she started seeing "the mission" more as her responsibility and less as a choice to do good. Actually, while Buffy takes saving the world seriously, it was always a bit more about slaying something if it came her way - because she's the slayer. She also had a black and white view of her slaying duties: killing humans was off limits even when killing Ben would have been the right thing to do, Spike had a chip so she couldn't kill him despite the danger he presented. "Because it's wrong" was pretty much Buffy's moto. The grayer her world became, the less empathy she seemed to feel toward the people she was meant to save. In Prophecy Girl, she faced death because Willow made her realize what she had to do, in Becoming, she killed Angel to save the world, in The Gift, she decided to save Dawn because she was an innocent with no one else to protect her. Empathy and love drove her decisions far more than responsibility did.

Yet, in s7, she was willing to kill Dawn if it would've saved the world. I know this statement was supposed to be reassuring or something, but what kind of hero would it have made her? Heroes are supposed to fight for humanity and good. Her sister was a teenaged girl with no one else in her corner. Fighting for Dawn's life while risking her own and everything else that was dear to her was imo, one of her most heroic acts. However, in season 7, duty and her own selfish desires (Spike) were all that interested her. (In Chosen, we got a glimpse of old Buffy but it was too late at that point).

Buffy's story is, in my opinion, a truly tragic one. She became like all other slayers the minute she stopped letting her "irrational" emotions (like love) lead her. She was not like Nikki Wood who chose the mission over her son. She was the slayer who had chosen her sister over the world. Her sacrifice had been one of love and not loyalty to the Watcher's Academy. That should have been the end of her journey.

Angel, similarly, became tougher with time - more demanding, questionable and aggressive. He started off in season 1 (of Ats) intent on fighting for humanity without connecting to it. He was torn between fighting for atonement and fighting for humanity itself. His decision in IWRY, the cases he took on, the friends he made, all brought him closer to the world he was fighting for. However, the Shanshu Prophecy and Darla's reappearance tipped the scale the other way. One of Angel's biggest realizations was that "the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world". Doing good isn't about some reward or redemption, but rather a desire to help.

Angel's suffered and brought suffering onto others, he knows how people feel and wants to make it better. With the kidnapping of his son, Cordelia's ascension and being under water for months, Angel toughened up quite a bit though. He became more impatient, violent, jealous, toxic. He often showed little compassion for Cordy and his own son. Yet, in the end, it was his concern for the victims of The Beast and Jasmine that got him through. Compassion is always a big part of him, no matter how detached he seems - he forgave Wesley everyday he saw Connor and everyday he lived without Connor; he didn't stop worrying about Wesley despite his own grief, his visited Gunn when no one else did after Wes stabbed him.

In the end, the quality that inspired Angel to work for the PTB and to make amends is still there five seasons later. Angel would have made the decision to fight W&H the way he did - Shanshu Prophecy be damned - in every season of the show. His words to Lindsey in Not Fade Away were not unlike his words to Buffy in Gingerbread ("Maybe they're [W&H] not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong." / "We never win. We never will. That's not why we fight. We do it 'cause there's things worth fighting for.").

Maybe it's an unfair comparison, but I doubt s3 Buffy would have allowed the activating spell. And this isn't even a question about "growing up". I can't help but think that Angel's journey was, by far, the most satisfying one. There's a sense of integrity and humanity that he held on to, in a way no one else did. It's one of the reasons why I love his character and am proud of his journey despite the vulnerability and playfulness he lost in the later seasons. I think the opposite of Buffy.

[Yes, I know I'm biased but I still want to hear your opinions 😛]

 

[white avenger]

Yet, in s7, she was willing to kill Dawn if it would've saved the world. I know this statement was supposed to be reassuring or something, but what kind of hero would it have made her? Heroes are supposed to fight for humanity and good.

I can't help but think that Angel's journey was, by far, the most satisfying one. There's a sense of integrity and humanity that he held on to, in a way no one else did.

I think that Buffy's statement in Season 7 about how she would have sacrificed Dawn if no other alternative were found is somewhat misleading, and mostly hypothetical on her part. Sure, she said that she would have sacrificed Dawn, but I have my doubts. She had pretty much the same decision to make with Spike, and chose not to kill him. Even her statement that she would let Spike kill Wood might have been little more than a bluff, which he chose never to call (I wonder why she didn't have that same conversation with Giles, since his level of betrayal was far more personal)

As for Angel's sense of "integrity and humanity," where does the killing of Drogan fit into that? Angel didn't just say that he would sacrifice an innocent in the cause of the greater good, he actually did it'

In the end, as you say, Angel brought far more suffering to others, intentionally and with forethought, than Buffy ever did, and he didn't even have the excuse of saving the world to justify his actions. The most blaring example of this, in my opinion, is Angel robbing his friends of their memories by cutting a deal with W&H for Connor's well being, which is looked on as the action of a loving father, whereas Willow basically doing the same thing to Tara is seen as evil, selfish, and abusive. Both vampire and witch used the same "I just wanted everyone to be happy" excuse, but only Willow's actions were clearly shown as being wrong.

 

[Mylie]

I'm not particularly pleased with both character's development and choices during their last season so I have trouble deciding which one has the best hero journey. I'd say that based on what the shows are telling us though the actual resolution/ending, it would be Buffy. I have too many issues with Angel's actions in the last 2 episodes and I never got a sense of closure like I did with Buffy. While I disagreed with a lot of what Buffy did, things turned out well for her. The same cannot be said for Angel. But in my opinion, both their faith in the mission and sense of idealism were compromised at the end.
 

In the end, as you say, Angel brought far more suffering to others, intentionally and with forethought, than Buffy ever did, and he didn't even have the excuse of saving the world to justify his actions. The most blaring example of this, in my opinion, is Angel robbing his friends of their memories by cutting a deal with W&H for Connor's well being, which is looked on as the action of a loving father, whereas Willow basically doing the same thing to Tara is seen as evil, selfish, and abusive. Both vampire and witch used the same "I just wanted everyone to be happy" excuse, but only Willow's actions were clearly shown as being wrong.

This comparison has never worked for me. You're comparing someone who the result of giving his son a better chance at life/do over made his friends lose their memories to someone who wanted to control their loved one by erasing a fight they had. I love Willow but her intention was not to make Tara happy, it was all about wanting to put that fight behind them so Tara would stop being mad at her. It's not about Tara being unhappy/mad, it's because her anger is directed towards Willow. She was thinking about herself, not Tara.

 

[Guy]

Well, obviously, I prefer Buffy's arc. By, like, a LOT. Buffy's arc is my favorite thing. But I just wanted to note something that I find interesting:

Buffy and Angel go through opposite arcs over the course of their series.

Buffy starts her series as a young girl, who wants to be with her friends and sees her role as the slayer as a BURDEN. Then, over the course of the series, Buffy grows to accept her role as the slayer and embrace it, but does it at the cost of her humanity - she becomes a more devout, professional Slayer, but does so at the cost of her relationship with her friends and family.

Angel goes through the opposite arc - he starts as a lonely warrior, who saves people every night but lives a stoic, lonely existence. Then, over the course of the series, he slowly connects to humanity, and builds a family of friends around him. He even gets a son, which he never thought possible before. But this occurs at the cost of his commitment to his role as a warrior - he started the show as a devout warrior who saves people on the streets, but he ended the show as a CEO of W&H, who gets more embroiled in the troubles of his family than in saving innocent people. And he only took that job to save his son, Connor. He became more of a human being and less of a warrior.

And finally, of course, both series finales aimed to bring the two heroes into balance, with both their humanity and their responsibilty co-existing in harmony. I think that 'Chosen' did it much more successfully, but that's a different discussion.

So, Buffy's journey was from a human being to a warrior, and Angel's journey was from a warrior to a human being. I like that symmetry. Even though I don't like Angel. 😛

 

[RomanticSoul]

I'm not particularly pleased with both character's development and choices during their last season so I have trouble deciding which one has the best hero journey. I'd say that based on what the shows are telling us though the actual resolution/ending, it would be Buffy. I have too many issues with Angel's actions in the last 2 episodes and I never got a sense of closure like I did with Buffy. While I disagreed with a lot of what Buffy did, things turned out well for her. The same cannot be said for Angel. But in my opinion, both their faith in the mission and sense of idealism were compromised at the end.

See I can easily dismiss those last Seasons of both shows for one reason, Whedon. S5 AtS was the first time Whedon was actually in charge of the show and he tried to make it Buffy S7 (all about power, isolated hero, it's all about Spike and so on). He has no understanding of Angel as a character and it showed. S7 Buffy's characterization isn't even about Buffy, it's about SMG (according to Whedon). It wasn't about Buffy's journey or anything to do with the character even, it was about the reflection of SMG's relationship with the rest of the cast. Or so Whedon excuses his crap.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

There are a lot of problems with both arcs.

Buffy starts out as a reluctant slayer who would rather just be normal and rises from there to her peak in Graduation Day which is an epic story as aviators would say of "plan your flight, fly your plan" and she is recognized as the natural leader. By the time she gets to Season 7, she is a mess. She is so unpopular, she gets thrown out of her own house by her sister, no less. Her final plan ends successfully but the chaotic "planning" would never have led to a victory if Spike wasn't wearing his talisman. In other words, her success was in spite of her, not because of her. She had devolved.

Angel starts off isolated then forms Angel Investigations and is forced to interact with other people. But this is not necessarily a good thing. AI is a company where no human employee survives his employment. And in the final season, he becomes the head of Wolfram & Hart, otherwise known as "Hell Incorporated" by people who know the score. In a final fight, the does "plan his flight and fly his plan" in stark contrast to Buffy but part of the plan involves killing Drogyn to get into the Circle of the Black Thorn, similar to some gangs where you have to kill someone to gain entry and they are regarded as the most dangerous and repugnant organizations on earth. His plan works, but he ends up in a pitched battle with demons that otherwise would have left the city alone. His mantra, "If nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do" is senseless on the face of it and ridiculous when seen in action. You never get into a war you can't win unless you want to create endless misery. So Angel becomes more humanoid but all of his human associates die.

Both arcs have some aspects that end lower than they started. Realistic, but they are not the usual "hero's journey".

 

[BuffyBot22]

I like that neither Angel or Buffy have a typical hero journey. They are portrayed as real characters who have suffered immensely which has caused progression and regression in both of them.

I don't think one journey is better than the other, at least not in this case. I can choose the one I like the most which is Buffy's, but I think they are both great journey's and really show the humanity of it all - that it is not always an upward path to this happy fairytale ending or always a downward spiral into depression, but it is a mix of highs and lows, of evolving and devolving. If it was just a constant straight and narrow path it wouldn't have been real, and I certainly would have enjoyed it much less.

I don't like s7 of BtVS or s5 of AtS, but mainly for reasons that have nothing to do with the protagonists. I didn't care for the potentials, Illyria, Harmony, or Spike (on AtS) because all of these characters took up too much screen time in the final season of a show where we should be focusing on tying up the loose ends of our main cast.

But, back on topic- they are both journey's worth telling. Buffy started out a young naive girl who just wanted a normal life to becoming a woman who accepted her destiny and took pride in what she was doing. She came out on top, but not without losing some people along the way and parts of herself as well. This journey hardened her but it also empowered her.

Angel started out brooding about all of the horrible things he had done as Angelus to genuinely trying to help the helpless but not without heartache or falling down a long the way. In the end he lost people and pieces of himself as well. He finally knew what love was just to have it ripped from him, but it did not stop him from fighting for the greater good. He had missteps. He lost who he was, but he found it in the end even if he was changed by the circumstances of losing Cordy, Fred, the love of his life (Buffy), and his son.

They both got lost along the way, just like we do as humans. I think this makes both of their journey's all the more beautiful.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Buffy started out a young naive girl who just wanted a normal life to becoming a woman who accepted her destiny and took pride in what she was doing. She came out on top, but not without losing some people along the way and parts of herself as well. This journey hardened her but it also empowered her.

Did she take pride in what she was doing? To me, Buffy never took a lot of pride in what she did. It's like she reluctantly enjoyed being a slayer and that was a big part of her, but most of the time she just used slaying as an excuse to play the martyr. In season 7, she did this more than ever. And was her journey empowering? Did she win or only survive? She survived the battle with the First, but by that time she had already lost herself. I don't think her journey is one of empowerment. Her job sucked the life out of her. She may have been a capable slayer, but she was kind of broken.

I think being a champion empowered Angel because it made him let go of his guilt a bit, it allowed him to channel that guilt and anger into something useful, it gave him purpose. With Buffy, being the slayer gave her physical power but she wasn't capable of holding on to what she wanted (a normal life) or even to that girly part of her that meant so much in the early seasons. Being a slayer gave Buffy purpose until s4, and she did take pride in it, but later on, not so much.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Did she take pride in what she was doing? To me, Buffy never took a lot of pride in what she did. It's like she reluctantly enjoyed being a slayer and that was a big part of her, but most of the time she just used slaying as an excuse to play the martyr. In season 7, she did this more than ever. And was her journey empowering? Did she win or only survive? She survived the battle with the First, but by that time she had already lost herself. I don't think her journey is one of empowerment. Her job sucked the life out of her. She may have been a capable slayer, but she was kind of broken.

I think being a champion empowered Angel because it made him let go of his guilt a bit, it allowed him to channel that guilt and anger into something useful, it gave him purpose. With Buffy, being the slayer gave her physical power but she wasn't capable of holding on to what she wanted (a normal life) or even to that girly part of her that meant so much in the early seasons. Being a slayer gave Buffy purpose until s4, and she did take pride in it, but later on, not so much.

I think she was proud of herself at the end of Chosen. That she had come out on top. She got stabbed, was beaten, and down but she got back up and this to me was the moment she got herself back and her empowerment. s6 was hard for her, she was ripped out of heaven and because of that she lost who she was. She was still trying to figure out who she was again in s7 while training a bunch of yappy potentials lol. I don't think she always took pride in it. I think she resented it a lot of the time, but that moment when she got back up, she finally accepted who she was and was proud of herself and all of the good she has done despite the immense amount of tragedy she has endured.

You can make the same argument for Angel. I think it empowered him and also sucked the life out of him. The point is he came out of it a better man and more capable handling hardships thrown his way. He lost himself in s2, and not by the means of losing his soul, but just who he was. He got everything back on track and then lost Cordy and Connor at the same time and signed himself over to the devil (W&H) in order to give his son a life he knew he never could. He lost himself again that season. He even admits it to Cordy. But he eventually worked through it and became the champion that was always inside him. But, I'm sure he has fallen again (I don't keep up with the comics.) And he will get back up again because it is all about fighting to help who he can when he can, not for some magical ending of peace on earth.