Lou
Scooby
Yeah, but he also helped the world NOT end in S2, and then there was that friendly visit in S3, granted, he wasn't the best at the beginning of S4, but they certainly came to terms with him hanging around. Xander let him move in!
Buffy Brat
- Thread starter Lou
- Start date
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
...he helped the world NOT end in S2 because he liked, how did he put it? "Happy Meals on legs." Free humans to eat. And he wanted to beat Angel because he was stealing Drusilla's attention. That's hardly a reason for a pat on the back. Ok, maybe a pat, but definitely not a swearing-in ceremony to the Scooby Club complete with matching BFF bracelets.
They were ok with him hanging around because he's useful. Supervamp strength and a chip that keeps him from killing them all in their sleep. That doesn't make him a good person at his core, and I think, especially at first, the Scoobies have every right to not trust him and to be as cruel to him as he is to them.
They were ok with him hanging around because he's useful. Supervamp strength and a chip that keeps him from killing them all in their sleep. That doesn't make him a good person at his core, and I think, especially at first, the Scoobies have every right to not trust him and to be as cruel to him as he is to them.
Cohen
Hellhound
Also, none of the scoobies LIKED spike. They TOLERATED him. And, until Season Seven, Buffy didn't like Spike either. (In Season 6, she used him, but she never liked him. She maybe even trusted him, but she didn't like him.)
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really? BFF bracelets?! I didn't get BFF bracelets!! 🙁
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really? BFF bracelets?! I didn't get BFF bracelets!! 🙁
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
Ahh. Well, let's see what we can do about that.
1. Have you killed/attempted to kill/wanted to kill anybody lately?
2. Is the only thing stopping you from being a mass murderer a government chip in your head that causes you excruciating pain whenever you try to harm a human?
3. Are you evil?
If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, sorry, you can't be in the club. And no bracelet for you either.
Cohen
Hellhound
Lou
Scooby
Surely there's got to be a gray area between best friend braclets and leaving him crying in an alley!
Well, but aren't we ALL a little evil? Go read BoTD's thread.
I didn't see Spike killing people in mass when he was in the wheelchair!
Dru wasn't good with the birds, but still. He didn't eat the whole town...he DOES however like using people.
Still, working with someone is working with someone...no matter what the motives!
Besides, just the week before he socked Tara in the nose for the good of the whole gang!
And when he fought off all the demons that Buffy couldn't see?
Surely, we can have a nice compromise that doesn't leave the man in tears sitting on the ground.
Well, but aren't we ALL a little evil? Go read BoTD's thread.
I didn't see Spike killing people in mass when he was in the wheelchair!
Dru wasn't good with the birds, but still. He didn't eat the whole town...he DOES however like using people.
Still, working with someone is working with someone...no matter what the motives!
Besides, just the week before he socked Tara in the nose for the good of the whole gang!
And when he fought off all the demons that Buffy couldn't see?
Surely, we can have a nice compromise that doesn't leave the man in tears sitting on the ground.
Cohen
Hellhound
Al's here? where?! point me to the thread, please.
either way: you're wrong. we're right. you lose. 😉
just kidding. But really. Buffy doesn't deserve to be criticized for her actions. Her mother has a brain tumor and buffy, herself, almost died by a joe regular vampire! she can be a little cranky. and why not take it out on 'ole chip-in-his-head?
either way: you're wrong. we're right. you lose. 😉
just kidding. But really. Buffy doesn't deserve to be criticized for her actions. Her mother has a brain tumor and buffy, herself, almost died by a joe regular vampire! she can be a little cranky. and why not take it out on 'ole chip-in-his-head?
L
Lou
Hey, I SAID she could have whacked him in the NOSE!
Lou
Scooby
Main difference between Spike and Angel conditions is simple: Angel can be Angelus with a soul if he wanted, Spike can't be same old Spike with chip.
And speaking of Spike i bet they all remember Yoko factor rather well and stalking Buffy. Also it felt like Spike was coming on to Buffy to which she choosed clearest no to answer. Might have overdone it, but there was a reason for it. Remember the turning point of intervention had not happened yet.
And speaking of Spike i bet they all remember Yoko factor rather well and stalking Buffy. Also it felt like Spike was coming on to Buffy to which she choosed clearest no to answer. Might have overdone it, but there was a reason for it. Remember the turning point of intervention had not happened yet.
Lindsey McDonald
Spirit Boy
I agree with Lou on this one. It's Buffy's old superiority complex kicking in again. She feels bad about it around the Scoobies, but when Spike tells her about all the bad things he has done, she justifies it to herself. Which is wrong. Yes, she may be above him, but it doesn't mean she should say it. Not after all he just did for her. She didn't like what he said, but he told the truth.
One more thing: she didn't know Joyce had a tumor at this point. So that wasn't a factor till the end of the episode.
One more thing: she didn't know Joyce had a tumor at this point. So that wasn't a factor till the end of the episode.
Blondie Bear
Zydrate Addict
I think the whole idea here was to make us feel bad for Spike. He needed to be a sympathetic character for later story arcs to work. So we learn about his past, about the wimp he used to be, about the ways he's tried to make up for being a wimp, and then that he's still a hopeless-romantic softy down deep inside. And then Buffy gives him that emotional kick in the groin, and we're supposed to be all "Aw! Go easy on him!"
I, for one, always wanted to jump into the frame and take him away from Buffy, but that's me.
I, for one, always wanted to jump into the frame and take him away from Buffy, but that's me.
Hmm, I have never seen it like Spike told Buffy the stories about his poetry and Cecily. Why would he?
That was just for us, the audience, so we would understand Spike better.
Especially understand why he takes it so hard when Buffy says that 'I'm above you' comment later.
So I don't think Buffy say it to hurt Spike extra much.
She do tries to insult and hurt him though. But that isn't that strange, they aren't exactly best friends at that point...
/SK
That was just for us, the audience, so we would understand Spike better.
Especially understand why he takes it so hard when Buffy says that 'I'm above you' comment later.
So I don't think Buffy say it to hurt Spike extra much.
She do tries to insult and hurt him though. But that isn't that strange, they aren't exactly best friends at that point...
/SK
Lindsey McDonald
Spirit Boy
See, that's the thing. Are the flashbacks mere flashbacks like in other episodes, or are they exactly what Spike is telling Buffy. The premise of the episode seems to suggest the second, but it could well be the first. If that is the case then Buffy is being cruel, but in a more acceptable way. If she is actively taking his worst experiences that he just offered up to her and using them as a weapon against him, then thats just wrong. Waaay too far for the situation.
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
No one saw Spike fighting off the demons. As far as the group is concerned, he's evil, soulless, and murderous.
Buffy was going through a lot. I don't think we can expect her to be nice and cheery to Spike, of all people. Now if she was treating Willow or Xander or Giles like that, that'd be different.
T
T.I.P
Guest
I know what you mean now. There was actually alot of times in s5 Buffy behaved this way. And not just with Spike, but also lots of times with Dawn and Riley. For example, Dawn overhears Buffy saying to Joyce something like ''but she's not part of our family, she's not even real'', and Dawn takes this out of context and runs away upset, and even though Buffy didnt mean it that way, it was the way it was said and it seems like it had just become Buffys nature to be snarky and moany without even really realizing it.
But theres other times with these three when she's just being sraight disrespectful and inconsidirate.
I think Spike was hitting a really personal note when he is talking about how he ruthlessly killed those two slayers. Innocent girls like her. I think she just gets really disgusted listening to the details of those deaths. Getting inside the killer's mind.
Lou
Scooby
WOW! You AGREE?
Who we talkin' about here, Buffy or someone else I know? 😉
HEY! And while we're at it, what's with the spelling realize with a "z".....you're gearing up to start saying "ain't" again aren't you?
Who we talkin' about here, Buffy or someone else I know? 😉
HEY! And while we're at it, what's with the spelling realize with a "z".....you're gearing up to start saying "ain't" again aren't you?
Airam
Zen baby.
Man this is one thing that has always bugged me, and its probably best suited as a thread elsewhere (which I'll prob start tomorrow as right now I'm about to zonk out on my keyboard but...) Okay the point is exactly that. The SOUL is what keeps Angel from being the creature he's "supposed to be. We've all seen what happens to him when he loses it, death, mayhem, the whole enchilada. Angel, without the soul, would NEVER be able to keep his demon at bay. Spike has shown that he can do just that. It's like he has some kind of super-vampire willpower. Sure the chip started him on the path and without it he never would have been anything but EVIL S2 Spike. The ONLY power the chip had over him was preventing him from PERSONALLY inflicting physical harm on human beings. That's IT, that is ALL the chip did. He did not have to change his personality, or his hatred for the Slayer. He very easily could have just hired someone to take the Slayer out for him just like he did with the Order of Taraka. Instead of doing any of that he began on a gradual path towards, granted in his own trademark snarky and sexy Spike way, of changing his ways....
Yeah okay I definitely need to start a thread to continue this topic, tomorrow, sleep now.... sorry I started it here, but man I got pumped 😛
I don't think that's what really happened. Spike only told her the Big Bad moments, his loser moments just popped up because the writers wanted to show us that what he's telling Buffy is NOT true. He wasn't always bad, like he claimed. He wanted to appear like a bad ass in front her, not like a wuss.
Which is why Buffy was angrier with him by the end.
Washburne
That´s how I´ve seen it too.
F
Fake Shemp
how i see it too
Lou
Scooby
I went back to watch it just for kicks.
I think if that is what the writers had in mind, they'd have been showing it differently. Like have his voice over saying, "When I was a human I was a total bad ass. Women fell all over me...." and then showing what really happened.
To show us just the stories and then to have Buffy be able to quote Cecily so perfectly, seems to show that he told her the same story we got to see.