Buffy chose to kill Anya but help Spike

[Robb Stark]

In The Wish, Wishverse Buffy and Giles have a very small conversation about what to do with Anyanka. Buffy suggests staking her, whilst Giles had no intention to kill her, yet find a way to reverse it. Season seven Buffy is incredibly similar: doesn't want to stick around for plans or to do research, just wants to be, as D'Hoffryn described as "˜Ms Lady Hacks- Away'. And what happens? People die, like how Caleb killed two potentials in Dirty Girls.

Caleb and "Dirty Girls" has no connection to the topic. The only people who died in the episode on point were the people Anya butchered.

Now onto Spike: the whole "˜he didn't have a soul back then' argument doesn't work for the reason that so many fans praise him for: he had humanity. In Lies My Parents Told Me, he shows humanity to his mother. In Crush, he hesitates before sucking on an already dead partygoer. To quote the Judge, he "˜reeks of humanity'. Simply, having humanity, means responsibility. Seeking out his own soul isn't wanting to be "˜the man he was' it's a sign of awareness. He was aware of what he was doing. He is an adult. Getting a soul just sewed all those threads together.

We don't agree on this, and that's fine. I know plenty of people who think exactly like you do. However, I have a line with Angel and Spike that works for me and, I hope, makes sense. I'm not discounting what you said, it's a very good point. But I don't hole Spike or Angel accountable for what they did without souls, and I don't praise them for what they did without souls. Otherwise, we're rooting for child-killers, rapists and serial killers, and as a viewer I get a little uncomfortable with that. I'm fine with the soul explanation as it's presented. That's actually why I can't stand Anya. There's no moral/soul ambiguity. He just decided to start killing people again because she was mad, just like she did the first time. That's inexcusable.

Now, in Sleeper, post CWDP, Buffy says that "˜she'll have to see it for herself'. That means, she was waiting to see if someone would die by Spike's hand. She might not be able to stop him. She even said to Wood in LMPTM that she would let Spike kill him. Even though the words "˜vampire slayer' meaning you slay vampires, not defend them.

For sure, Buffy makes some very questionable calls, and I'm not for a second saying or thinking that her relationship with Spike doesn't color her judgement. It does. But the fact remains, by my definition, you can't hold Spike responsible for the people he killed under The First's control. That's just not fair. If you do, then just about every character on the show who's been under mind-control should be held responsible. As you say, you can't pick and choose.

Which makes it worse. You don't give free passes for others, and give a sword in the chest for others. And did Anya really choose the path of evil? Was she at her fullest mental strength and healthy post Hell's Bell's? Because to me, she's sick. She's disturbed. She's ill. Like Willow was last year. If a slayer who has demon essence in her can get depression, who says a demon can't be mentally ill?

First off: Hissy fit? Not excusing Anya's actions, but gee, if I was left at the alter, embarrassed, I would be incredibly pissed off. More than a meer hissy fit.

She was angry, and very sad. That doesn't justify murder. That doesn't justify knowingly and willingly choosing to become a vengeance demon again, when you know entirely what that will entail. Plenty of people get left at the alter, and have things much, much worse than that happen to them, and then don't become reckless murderers. Buffy is one of them. There's no real evidence that Anya is experiencing anything other than normal emotions at that time. Being embarrassed doesn't mean anything to me when you consider what Anya chooses to do.

And I have issues with just excusing Willow too. She fully chose to access powers she knew she had no hope of controlling, and damn the consequences.

About Doppelgangland murder: well hey, Spike tried to murder Willow twice: in Lover's Walk and the Initative. Because, it's funny.

See above.

Well, if I were Xander, I would personally go up to Angel and stake him myself. He tortured Giles, murdered Jenny Calendar and numerous classmates. Buffy was incredibly reckless in keeping him a secret. Whilst Xander shouldn't have spied on Buffy and Angel, he was absolutely right in his reaction. Buffy had zero respect for others, especially Giles. Simply having a soul, isn't enough to convince them, and shouldn't be.

Completely disagree. See above. Buffy handled Angel's return horribly, but none of them were even willing to listen, especially Xander. And he was motivated by anything but altruistic reasons. His false righteousness was nothing more than a pretext to get angry at Buffy because she didn't feel the same way about him as he did about her.

I do agree that D'Hoffryn being able to reverse it is a deus ex machine, and if I was in charge of the script, he would have flat out told Anya no, and taken away her powers. However, the fact that she was willing to atone for it, by sacrificing her life, means a lot. Plus, there is the soul element of it, that she was willing to just perish into nothing. It's the ultimate sacrifice, and sure as hell means something.

Let me ask you this. Why does Faith have to answer for her crimes, and Anya doesn't? Let's leave out Angel and Spike, you know what my answer to that is going to be. Just Faith and Anya here. Now, I fully agreed with how Faith's story went, but if you're talking mental illness, Faith was exhibiting far more and clearer signs than Anya. So why does Faith have to go to prison and Anya doesn't? Because a demon waved a magic wand and essentially said "oh, don't worry about it"? Anya knew full well what she was doing, just as Faith did. Both of them had super-powered extenuating circumstances that didn't matter a whole lot in Faith's case. "Going through some stuff" does not justify killing people and acting like a maniac. Faith had to answer for it. Why not Anya?

Frankly, Buffy deserved every single ounce of hatred and cruelty directed her way. She made fun of a girl who committed suicide (Get It Done), and by the way- good luck everyone trying to justify that to me. There. Is. No. Justification. For. That. She makes embarrassing remarks about democracy- in Empty Places- "˜democracies don't win wars'. She tries to turn a bunch of scared, refugees into an army, using them as meer cannon fodder. She calls herself "˜the law' even though she lacks the essential demon knowledge, and really, saving the world numerous times does deserve respect, but not to decide what another person does or doesn't do. Anya's comments about her speech "˜everyone sucks but me' honestly, I was cheering her on. Because it was true. She expects everyone to just follow her orders because she is their commander. And her comments about Chloe? Gosh, Buff, that's really pathetic.

And the power had really gone to her head. Being the slayer doesn't automatically equate to leader or commander. She wanted to lead potentials into a vineyard with a man whose main intention is to kill each and every one of them. But, hey, as long as you get your shiny Toys R Us axe, it's all good, right? Plus, in Empty Places, in the hospital scene, with Xander, she spends the whole entire time talking about his diet. Really?

Btw, I hope no one thinks that I'm attacking them. That's not my intention- it's just that I have a lot of thoughts on Anya, and season 7 Buffy, as well as The Potentials.

There is a lot I disagree with here. I'm more than willing to discuss it, but only up to a point. If we open this can of worms, that's perfectly fine with me, I can handle it if we reach an impasse. But I'm not going to discuss it if it can't be conducted civilly. You're always good about that, but it seems like this bothers you, really bothers you, and if there's something more to that then I'd recommend we just let it go, because I can tell you right now, I have have some very...contrasting viewpoints to yours.

If you want to talk though, I'm game. But we're friends (complete with shiny request and everything 🙂) and I don't want anyone to walk away upset.

 

[iShower4free]

To all the discussions of the things Buffy did during S07 everyone ignores the fact that they were literally at war at this point and everyone knew Buffy was the one who made the calls. Democratic discussions are all fun and games and everything but when it comes down to it someone has to be there to make the final decision or else everyone would die. Yes the things Buffy said and the potential committing suicide were awful and in very ill taste but in her situation, needing to get through to a group of scared teenage girls, trying to avoid the situation again she did what she felt was necessary. Lets also not forget that this is a tv show where the original evil was trying to destroy the world, you cant say that anything in that situation is exactly off limits.

I digress though, I meant to discuss Anya and Buffys decision to kill her. Why did Anya deserve to be saved once again? She had been a Vengeance demon and tried to kill some of the scoobies, and became human again. Just because she is left at the alter, no matter how hurt or embarrassed she felt. doesn't excuse the fact that she willingly slaughtered those college students. The fact that she felt remorse for it afterwards doesnt change what she had willingly done (I say this to differentiate between Angel and Angelus 🙂).

Why I feel like the situation is different where Spike is concerned is A) everyone knew exactly what Spike had done when they started to except him, and B) he wasnt killing again by his own free will. He was being controlled so he couldnt be held accountable for his actions. Buffy was completely in her right to threaten Robin, if we have learned anything from the show is that things arent always black or white. Buffy shouldnt have to kill Spike and protect Robin kjust because Spike was a vampire and Robin a human. Not only did Spike have a soul again but he also broke the firsts hold on him. Robin was trying to kill someone fighting on their side out of nothing but vengeance. Yes Spike in his wild days killed Robins mother but things were different now.

And like I have said on the site at different times, almost all of the Scoobie have attacked and tried to Kill another member of the group at one time or the other (Xander in the Pack, Willow after Taras death tried destroying the whole world, and Buffy when she thought she was imagining the scoobies, I forget the episode). Why is it so easy to see those situations as them being possessed by something yet you cant get it into your heads the fact that Vampires without their souls are possessed by a demon so shouldn't be punished for what they do when they get their souls back. Idk, its just my opinion but I think everyone just wants to put their own person beliefs into these discussions when none of us has been in any situation like these since they arent real haha.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Didn't this thread start with Anya saying shouldn't we stick a sword in Spikes chest? All the swords I have seen were metal. Sticking metal in Spikes chest is a waste of time, now if it were wood ... Did Buffy know that?
As for Buffy being to quick to kill Anya. Anya knew she would, chances are if Buffy hadn't gone after her Anya would have told her off for being a slacker.
How much did the writers have fault in that scenario?
Anya did a lame attempt at being the shows comic, whereas Spike was much better. So there you have it, Buffy may not have wanted to have a go at Anya but the writers forced her.

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]:

Caleb and "Dirty Girls" has no connection to the topic. The only people who died in the episode on point were the people Anya butchered.
We don't agree on this, and that's fine. I know plenty of people who think exactly like you do. However, I have a line with Angel and Spike that works for me and, I hope, makes sense. I'm not discounting what you said, it's a very good point. But I don't hole Spike or Angel accountable for what they did without souls, and I don't praise them for what they did without souls. Otherwise, we're rooting for child-killers, rapists and serial killers, and as a viewer I get a little uncomfortable with that. I'm fine with the soul explanation as it's presented. That's actually why I can't stand Anya. There's no moral/soul ambiguity. He just decided to start killing people again because she was mad, just like she did the first time. That's inexcusable.



For sure, Buffy makes some very questionable calls, and I'm not for a second saying or thinking that her relationship with Spike doesn't color her judgement. It does. But the fact remains, by my definition, you can't hold Spike responsible for the people he killed under The First's control. That's just not fair. If you do, then just about every character on the show who's been under mind-control should be held responsible. As you say, you can't pick and choose.



She was angry, and very sad. That doesn't justify murder. That doesn't justify knowingly and willingly choosing to become a vengeance demon again, when you know entirely what that will entail. Plenty of people get left at the alter, and have things much, much worse than that happen to them, and then don't become reckless murderers. Buffy is one of them. There's no real evidence that Anya is experiencing anything other than normal emotions at that time. Being embarrassed doesn't mean anything to me when you consider what Anya chooses to do.

And I have issues with just excusing Willow too. She fully chose to access powers she knew she had no hope of controlling, and damn the consequences.

See above.
Completely disagree. See above. Buffy handled Angel's return horribly, but none of them were even willing to listen, especially Xander. And he was motivated by anything but altruistic reasons. His false righteousness was nothing more than a pretext to get angry at Buffy because she didn't feel the same way about him as he did about her.

Let me ask you this. Why does Faith have to answer for her crimes, and Anya doesn't? Let's leave out Angel and Spike, you know what my answer to that is going to be. Just Faith and Anya here. Now, I fully agreed with how Faith's story went, but if you're talking mental illness, Faith was exhibiting far more and clearer signs than Anya. So why does Faith have to go to prison and Anya doesn't? Because a demon waved a magic wand and essentially said "oh, don't worry about it"? Anya knew full well what she was doing, just as Faith did. Both of them had super-powered extenuating circumstances that didn't matter a whole lot in Faith's case. "Going through some stuff" does not justify killing people and acting like a maniac. Faith had to answer for it. Why not Anya?



There is a lot I disagree with here. I'm more than willing to discuss it, but only up to a point. If we open this can of worms, that's perfectly fine with me, I can handle it if we reach an impasse. But I'm not going to discuss it if it can't be conducted civilly. You're always good about that, but it seems like this bothers you, really bothers you, and if there's something more to that then I'd recommend we just let it go, because I can tell you right now, I have have some very...contrasting viewpoints to yours.

If you want to talk though, I'm game. But we're friends (complete with shiny request and everything 🙂) and I don't want anyone to walk away upset

I mentioned Dirty Girls / Caleb to support my argument of the consequences of not doing thorough research. The same reason I mentioned Wishverse Buffy and Giles.


I think the writers wrote themselves into a hole with Spike pre-soul. Why would a vampire even seek out his soul in the first place? Vampire’s humanity was always played for comic relief: Holden Webster, to season 2 Dru & Spike. However, when they were trying to add drama to this situation, it didn’t make an ounce of sense. It doesn’t make sense that Spike would break down into tears in The Gift. If he was obsessed with her, fine, yeah that makes sense, yet we are meant to believe that it’s love? Another discussion for another time, however.

I don’t hold Spike responsible for the murders he committed under the First- what I don’t get is why as soon as Buffy got the news that Spike was killing, she didn’t just grab a stake, like she grabbed a sword for Anya. As much as I dislike Spike, he didn’t deserve to die, and neither did Anya.

Also, you mentioned Willow, and I think that ignoring murder is a widespread problem that exists in BTVS. Although the problem here is: how would you punish Anya / Faith / Willow? Faith firstly, was willing to go to prison. She only broke out when Wesley pretty much called an emergency. However, Willow and Anya’s killings were mystical. I’ll admit that I have absolutely no idea what punishment they would deserve, curious to see what others think. It’s not like Willow can go up to the police station, say that she flayed Warren with her meer hand. Same with Anya- those people she killed were slaughtered. I completely understand what you are saying about answering crimes, but with all the crime and legal technicalities (Anya probably doesn’t even exist, according to legal records if I’m gonna get technical) I think it’s wrong to kill a human being , or a potential human being., another discussion for another time, (the only exception would be people who deliberately give themselves more power, and are virtually and completely unstoppable).

See above for answering crimes.

About Angels return: You won me over 🙂 I do understand where everyone is coming from. Everyone loved and cared for Ms Calendar, even post Innocence. Giles got brutally tortured and taunted, even though what Buffy got from Angelus was incredibly bad, Giles also got badly treated as well.

Yeah, I don’t want anyone to walk away upset, too. I’ll just respond to the below comment, and I’ll drop it. Because it does really, really bother me not just a fan level, but on a personal level. It’s one of those things that no one can change my opinion on, at all. It may be stubbornness, but for a very good reason.
[MENTION=7336]ILLYRIAN[/MENTION]: Lame attempt at comic relief? Can I trade in the children for more cash > Out. For. A. Walk. Bitch. Anya was consistently funny and charismatic, I found. Spike was a gigantic creep.

To all the discussions of the things Buffy did during S07 everyone ignores the fact that they were literally at war at this point and everyone knew Buffy was the one who made the calls. Democratic discussions are all fun and games and everything but when it comes down to it someone has to be there to make the final decision or else everyone would die. Yes the things Buffy said and the potential committing suicide were awful and in very ill taste but in her situation, needing to get through to a group of scared teenage girls, trying to avoid the situation again she did what she felt was necessary. Lets also not forget that this is a tv show where the original evil was trying to destroy the world, you cant say that anything in that situation is exactly off limits.*




I digress though, I meant to discuss Anya and Buffys decision to kill her. Why did Anya deserve to be saved once again? She had been a Vengeance demon and tried to kill some of the scoobies, and became human again. Just because she is left at the alter, no matter how hurt or embarrassed she felt. doesn't excuse the fact that she willingly slaughtered those college students. The fact that she felt remorse for it afterwards doesnt change what she had willingly done (I say this to differentiate between Angel and Angelus 🙂).*




Why I feel like the situation is different where Spike is concerned is A) everyone knew exactly what Spike had done when they started to except him, and B) he wasnt killing again by his own free will. He was being controlled so he couldnt be held accountable for his actions. Buffy was completely in her right to threaten Robin, if we have learned anything from the show is that things arent always black or white. Buffy shouldnt have to kill Spike and protect Robin kjust because Spike was a vampire and Robin a human. Not only did Spike have a soul again but he also broke the firsts hold on him. Robin was trying to kill someone fighting on their side out of nothing but vengeance. Yes Spike in his wild days killed Robins mother but things were different now.*




And like I have said on the site at different times, almost all of the Scoobie have attacked and tried to Kill another member of the group at one time or the other (Xander in the Pack, Willow after Taras death tried destroying the whole world, and Buffy when she thought she was imagining the scoobies, I forget the episode). Why is it so easy to see those situations as them being possessed by something yet you cant get it into your heads the fact that Vampires without their souls are possessed by a demon so shouldn't be punished for what they do when they get their souls back. Idk, its just my opinion but I think everyone just wants to put their own person beliefs into these discussions when none of us has been in any situation like these since they arent real haha.

First off, no one ignores the fact they were at war. Simply being at war doesn’t justify for a second trying to turn a group of refugees into an army. Yes, they should learn how to defend themselves, but they aren’t soldiers, and shouldn’t be. They shouldn’t be expected to just go along with Buffy’s plans. In an army it is understanding, yet refugees have the right to say no.

And everything Buffy did in Get it Done was off limits. Look, I understand. I get it that teenage girls are scared, and you need to get through to them. But would it kill Buffy to be a human being for a second? The ‘tough love’ approach doesn’t always work. I view Get It Done as the worst episode, as it used suicide as a meer plot device, triggering a lot of emotions and experiences in a lot of viewers (including me). It’s also incredibly insulting that you can fix a situation with a lot of speechifying. You can’t fight someone’s psychology. You work with it. They are teenage girls, not troops.

And so what if there is a war going on? That doesn’t excuse anything, at all. Simply ‘being the leader’ doesn’t justify making fun of a suicidal girl or giving a lot of pointless, condescending speeches.

Anya deserves to be saved once again because under all that demon surface, she is a human being.

And it is wrong to just let Spike kill a human being. It’s justice. He shouldn’t be expected to just move on, and adjust to ‘new, shiny Spike’. Whilst Spike shouldn’t be killed, even though I dislike him, Buffy is the ‘warrior of the people’ and there is an expectation to help.

“Idk, its just my opinion but I think everyone just wants to put their own person beliefs into these discussions when none of us has been in any situation like these since they arent real haha.”

Whedon constantly says that BTVS is a show that people needs to see. It prides itself on being relatable. It’s full of metaphors, and tries to filter real life situations in a supernatural sense.
And to be frank, people who have committed suicide have been called stupid. Refugees have been turned into soldiers. People have had to deal with their parent’s murderers getting released early from prison because they are ‘rehabilitated’. Season seven is incredibly reckless in that regard.

 

[Kurai]

It could be something to do with Spike having a soul, which made Buffy believe that having a soul made Spike incapable of killing of his own free will. Her argument for pretty much anything she does involving Spike this season seems to be 'he has a soul now'. This could possibly be due to how things were with Angel, i.e. he wasn't a bad guy when he had a soul, but when he lost it he became evil.

Anya, on the other hand, wasn't as close to Buffy as Spike was. Heck, the only real reason Anya hung round with the Scoobies in the the first place was because of her feelings for Xander. And when Anya goes round killing people, Buffy's first instinct is to do what she can to stop it.

 

[EVIL UU]

Slaying Spike is the rational thing to do. Period. Thing is, season 7 Buffy is no longer capable of making rational decisions, she's rapidly losing it and nobody really has the guts to dethrone her and take the lead. Or you know, she's just thinking with her sex organs, and not for the first time ( like when she didn't slay Angelus ) because Buffy's feelings are apparently more important than the lives of people she supposedly protects.

 

[iShower4free]

First let me say I apologize for getting into certain aspects of this discussion. I have had a friend kill himself but at the time that it happened I hadn't seen him for a few years so i'm not exactly sure what you are going through, so im sorry for that. It was extremely insensitive of me.

but about a different part of the convo 😀

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]:

First off, no one ignores the fact they were at war. Simply being at war doesn’t justify for a second trying to turn a group of refugees into an army. Yes, they should learn how to defend themselves, but they aren’t soldiers, and shouldn’t be. They shouldn’t be expected to just go along with Buffy’s plans. In an army it is understanding, yet refugees have the right to say no.

I may be remembering the last season incorrectly since it has been a while but I don't remember Buffy forcing them to fight. This situation though was anything but usual so even if she forced them into an army maybe it was necessary. The world needed the girls to step up and grow up fast, just like Buffy was expected to do. Buffy was what, 15 when she had the weight of the world put on her shoulders?(Which I always found weird since there were other hell mouths around the world yet only one slayer, thats a conversation for another day though lol). Buffy didnt have a choice to fight no matter how young she was. And last, not that I agree with this but if they werre refugees, they wouldnt have been the first people forced to fight a war. They should want to fight since they are the primary people being targeted. The scoobies couldn't do it alone and they knew the girls were chosen and potentials for a reason.

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]:


Whedon constantly says that BTVS is a show that people needs to see. It prides itself on being relatable. It’s full of metaphors, and tries to filter real life situations in a supernatural sense.
And to be frank, people who have committed suicide have been called stupid. Refugees have been turned into soldiers. People have had to deal with their parent’s murderers getting released early from prison because they are ‘rehabilitated’. Season seven is incredibly reckless in that regard.

And I find a lot of the show to be relate-able but come on, some things are a little too fantastical to try and literally relate to what going on.

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]:



Anya deserves to be saved once again because under all that demon surface, she is a human being.

So being human gives you a free pass to kill someone? She would be sentenced to death by the courts for what she did but its not like Buffy could turn her over to the authorities.

P.S. Evil UU hates Buffy so much I am surprised he actually watched the show 😛

 

[ILLYRIAN]

These refugees that are being referred to, are they the potentials?
How did they become refugees?
From what I recall most of them wanted to be there. True some didn't want to stay, so they left and the evil killed them quickly and (apparently) easily.
If Buffy should have died then one of the potentials would be the slayer, that would seem to infer that all potentials are soldiers in the war against evil.
Trying to say they had the right to say no, that she didn't want to be part of the army, that is correct (but a complete and utter waste of time though).
What about that potential that was seen to run away, what if she had escaped? Add to that the possibilty that Buffy and co., were all killed in the final battle? She would have become the slayer and as such she'd be alone. All because she thought she had the right to say no.
Because of what she was she didn't have the right to say no, saying no wasn't even an option.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12155]iShower4free[/MENTION]

Evil UU hates Buffy so much I am surprised he actually watched the show

You bet I hate her. I hate the perfect, makes-no-mistakes-is always-right, idealized, "but this is my head-canon 🙂" shiny object of over-identification Buffy. I hate her guts and I want her to just die already. I love the egomaniacal, sadistic, self-destructive, naive little idiot with a heart the size of a galactic arm, a ridiculously brave, amoral, immature cheerleader with a penchant for necrophilia turned superhero. Yeah, that's my Buffy. Messed up, conflicted and full of layers. Interesting.

You know, some of the fans want to take all of that away, whitewash her into something oh so relatable, easy to identify with, easy to write into their garbage self-pandering fan fiction. Stop, just stop. Don't. Look at her in an objective way, take that heart that's telling you to justify her actions and to defend her and rip it out of your bloody chest, throw it into a meat grinder. The Slayer way.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

You know, some of the fans want to take all of that away, whitewash her into something oh so relatable, easy to identify with, easy to write into their garbage self-pandering fan fiction. Stop, just stop. Don't. Look at her in an objective way, take that heart that's telling you to justify her actions and to defend her and rip it out of your bloody chest, throw it into a meat grinder. The Slayer way.

Just for the record, did you ever work at the Doublemeat Palace?

 

[iShower4free]

[MENTION=12155]iShower4free[/MENTION]


You bet I hate her. I hate the perfect, makes-no-mistakes-is always-right, idealized, "but this is my head-canon 🙂" shiny object of over-identification Buffy. I hate her guts and I want her to just die already. I love the egomaniacal, sadistic, self-destructive, naive little idiot with a heart the size of a galactic arm, a ridiculously brave, amoral, immature cheerleader with a penchant for necrophilia turned superhero. Yeah, that's my Buffy. Messed up, conflicted and full of layers. Interesting.

You know, some of the fans want to take all of that away, whitewash her into something oh so relatable, easy to identify with, easy to write into their garbage self-pandering fan fiction. Stop, just stop. Don't. Look at her in an objective way, take that heart that's telling you to justify her actions and to defend her and rip it out of your bloody chest, throw it into a meat grinder. The Slayer way.

I get what you are saying definitely, and although I defend some of the things Buffy does its not because I personally think she is some perfect savior who can do no wrong. I just happen to agree with her in certain situations. In other situations she drives me crazy. Case in point her post Angel relationships lol. I think we can all agree though that all of the characters in the show have their good and bad traits, just not all are as scrutinized as Buffy's. She is the one character who really has no secrets to us the viewers, we have seen every side of her, while other characters are still a mystery.

 

[ashleigh]

I guess it was pretty hypocritical, but Xander does behave in the same manner. Say for instance, Angelus returned - Xander would have been all for killing him. However, Anya acts all demony and Buffy isn't allowed to kill her?

It's important to remember that despite being the Slayer, Buffy is still a human being with human emotions. I think everyone makes poor decisions when it comes to people that they care about.

I think the difference here though is that Anya knew what she was doing. Buffy gave her plenty of chances, but she just carried on handing out vengeance. Spike, on the other hand, was not in control of his own actions.

But yeah, I think that essentially Buffy was being selfish. I also think that the majority of human beings put in that situation would be.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11797]ashleigh[/MENTION]

Buffy is still a human being with human emotions.

No, she is not. Buffy is a person, she possesses humanity and experiences human-like emotions but she is not a human being. This issue has been explored in the franchise multiple times, both on the show and in the canonical comics. Buffy realizes it and generally accepts it. As a potential, she's never even been a human being, at best she's a hybrid although I'd simply call her a benevolent demon.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

But really, the fact that Anya felt bad about it...doesn't really mean anything. And I don't see how she killed out of desperation. She killed on a whim, and then freaked out about it.

This is the one part of my post that I chose not to expand on. I actually did at first, but then deleted it because I felt it detracted from the overall point.

Yes, she did kill out of desperation. In the episodes prior to this Anya is shown to be having great difficulty inflicting vengeance. She says as much to Willow and then Halfreck pretty much says that Anya doesn't step up soon with the evil, she'll be out of a job.

This is TERRIFYING to Anya. The entire focus of the episode Helpess is that she defines herself by attaching herself to something. First Olaf. Then Vengeance ("Vengeance is what I do. Vengeance is who I am"). Then Xander. The Magic Box. Now back to Vengeance. The idea that D'Hoffryn could fire her again and once again find herself abandoned with no purpose is what leads her to unleash the spider demon. There is CLEARLY no malice or evil behind it (she looks horrified by it), it isn't done out of some sinister grand plan. The only reason behind it, is desperation.

This is what Buffy did not take the time or effort to understand. Regardless of viewer opinion of Anya or whether what she did was acceptable or whether the fact she regretted her actions is relevent or not, the fact is that Buffy took no time or effort to find out what was causing Anya to kill again. But with Spike it's "Oh he can be a good man, there must be some explanation." There can be no arguement that this is not hugely hypocritical.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is the one part of my post that I chose not to expand on. I actually did at first, but then deleted it because I felt it detracted from the overall point.

Yes, she did kill out of desperation. In the episodes prior to this Anya is shown to be having great difficulty inflicting vengeance. She says as much to Willow and then Halfreck pretty much says that Anya doesn't step up soon with the evil, she'll be out of a job.

This is TERRIFYING to Anya. The entire focus of the episode Helpess is that she defines herself by attaching herself to something. First Olaf. Then Vengeance ("Vengeance is what I do. Vengeance is who I am"). Then Xander. The Magic Box. Now back to Vengeance. The idea that D'Hoffryn could fire her again and once again find herself abandoned with no purpose is what leads her to unleash the spider demon. There is CLEARLY no malice or evil behind it (she looks horrified by it), it isn't done out of some sinister grand plan. The only reason behind it, is desperation.

This is what Buffy did not take the time or effort to understand. Regardless of viewer opinion of Anya or whether what she did was acceptable or whether the fact she regretted her actions is relevent or not, the fact is that Buffy took no time or effort to find out what was causing Anya to kill again. But with Spike it's "Oh he can be a good man, there must be some explanation." There can be no arguement that this is not hugely hypocritical.

You know, I'd never stopped and considered it that way (so am I know the Buffy of this thread? Crap 😛). It's been a little while since I've seen and I didn't think about the theme behind the episode. I understand your point much better now (and really, that helps me out, because I wasn't getting it at all), but it doesn't change my overall position.

I was wrong about her being desperate, and you outlined that beautifully. However, if Buffy had stopped and considered what you just said, would it have mattered had D'Hoffryn not showed up and said it never happened? I mean, I get the motivation, or the reasoning, now, but really, what does that mean or matter? She still did it, and with Spike, there actually were mitigating factors. Anya may have been desperate, but that doesn't change the action, or make it any less despicable.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

You know, I'd never stopped and considered it that way (so am I know the Buffy of this thread? Crap 😛). It's been a little while since I've seen and I didn't think about the theme behind the episode. I understand your point much better now (and really, that helps me out, because I wasn't getting it at all), but it doesn't change my overall position.

I was wrong about her being desperate, and you outlined that beautifully. However, if Buffy had stopped and considered what you just said, would it have mattered had D'Hoffryn not showed up and said it never happened? I mean, I get the motivation, or the reasoning, now, but really, what does that mean or matter? She still did it, and with Spike, there actually were mitigating factors. Anya may have been desperate, but that doesn't change the action, or make it any less despicable.

It certainly doesn't make Anya's actions any less dispicable, you are right there.

But I wonder, if D'Hoffryn hadn't showed up, Buffy understood what was going on in Anya's life, and had Anya asked Buffy for help, what would Buffy have done then?

 

[itssmiletime]

Apologises for the late reply, I’ve been sick in the last couple of days and really out of it.

The two biggest arguments that I’ve seen that are constantly used in this discussion so far is that Xander Harris is a hypocrite for defending Anya, and that Anya had a soul and a choice.

First off, Xander. I think it’s an incredibly weak argument to bring up Xander’s attitude to Angel. What does that change anything? That was in season 2 and 3, we are talking about season seven. My opinions on Xander’s actions in season 2 and 3, even if it does make him a hypocrite, so? He was right to defend Anya. It’s like when ‘Thou lady Buffy can do no wrong’ worshippers say that in Empty Places, Anya was out of line, and mention her vengeance spree earlier that year. No matter if they killed, were hypocritical, etc that doesn’t change how valid their opinion, here in the right now, can be, and the very strong possibility, that they can actually be right. If you are going to attack a character’s actions, attack the actions and words themselves, not the character. To be frank, that is awful arguing, and in an academic essay, or in a publication, etc when you are debating someone’s viewpoint- you debate said viewpoint, you may mention the person and relevance to the person, but you don’t critique the person.

Secondly, Anya had a soul and a choice. Previously I’ve mentioned her mental state, but to add onto it, and to expand on it, I highly recommend everyone reads an essay by UC Berk. Law student Tiffany Kiristen Lee on Slayage, titled “The Justice Systems of Slayers and Vengeance Demons: Prosecutorial Discretion in Buffy the vampire slayer” It is quite long (the bibliography list is 7 and half pages long) yet these paragraphs are fascinating and very relevant to the point I’ve been, and will continue to make.

Paragraphs: IV. Buf fy and Anya : Personal Bias versus Neutrality
35-53
VI . Corruption by Power : The Problem of Oversight

Article link: http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage35/Lee.pdf


Points Lee makes include:
• Vengeance demons have to do vengeance. In Villains, Anya can sense Willow miles away. She also quotes as saying ‘I’d have to’. They grant the first wishes they hear. Vengeance is a business, a ruthless, cold cut world. Anya is trapped.
• Anya has superiors such as D’hoffryn. If she does not meet the needs and wants, she would be severely punished. As well as that, if she doesn’t inact vengeance, someone else would.
• Buffy is clearly biased: she goes out of her well to help Willow at the end of season six, yet Anya doesn’t get that much benefit.

The problem is that yes, not having a soul is used as the biggest excuse for anything and everything, yet a vengeance demon is different. More complex. What Buffy did was wrong. She isn’t the law. She doesn’t respect the law at all. She doesn’t respect democracy. To her, she’s the police officer, all the way to the executioner. People often overlook that Anya is over a 1000 years old. She comes from a different language, she is torn between two worlds. She’s a demon, in a kill or be killed scenario. Her boss can burst her into flames within three seconds. Her body, physically feels when someone is feeling angry, and she has to come to them. How does Anya have a choice? What Buffy did was simplify this whole entire situation within her hands: the complexities were stark and obvious. It’s hard to not get the impression that Buffy just wanted to put this whole situation behind her as quickly behind her, and as someone who calls herself ‘the law’- that’s laziness. I am completely, 100% on Anya’s side in Selfless, as well as in season seven. Buffy’s constant naivety annoys me and frustrates me constantly. Whoever thought she’d make a good school councillor, I have no idea.

First let me say I apologize for getting into certain aspects of this discussion. I have had a friend kill himself but at the time that it happened I hadn't seen him for a few years so i'm not exactly sure what you are going through, so im sorry for that. It was extremely insensitive of me.

Thank you for apologising and my closest sympathies go out towards you and your friend. It’s just… this stuff is really close to me and personal and I always get fired up when people defend Buffy’s actions. I do, generally think BTVS has a problem with triggering issues for plot devices, and treating said victims as trash, i.e Debbie in Beauty and The Beasts. But that’s a discussion for another time 

I may be remembering the last season incorrectly since it has been a while but I don't remember Buffy forcing them to fight. This situation though was anything but usual so even if she forced them into an army maybe it was necessary. The world needed the girls to step up and grow up fast, just like Buffy was expected to do. Buffy was what, 15 when she had the weight of the world put on her shoulders?(Which I always found weird since there were other hell mouths around the world yet only one slayer, thats a conversation for another day though lol). Buffy didn't have a choice to fight no matter how young she was. And last, not that I agree with this but if they werre refugees, they wouldnt have been the first people forced to fight a war. They should want to fight since they are the primary people being targeted. The scoobies couldn't do it alone and they knew the girls were chosen and potentials for a reason.

To quote Rona: ''I came here for protection''. I think the whole situation is incredibly bad, and not in any way good. Whilst I do think they should contribute to the efforts of the war, perhaps not in some front line combat. We've seen in the world, such as in certain genocides, that there are no troops or soliders defending refugees or victims. These situations are poverty, depressing, miserable- and you wouldn't chuck a teenage solider whose had three weeks of experience, (actually, some groups are badsh*t insane to do something like that) so why would you put a potential in a vineyard with a man you know next to nothing about?

Back to my original point in this paragraph: I do agree with you about contributing, the want and drive to fight, but does it have to be a warrior position? Some could have used magic, research, etc. I do think people always the right to say no, no matter how bad the situation- and the awful irony is that in Dirty Girls, Xander gives a speech to Rona and to the potentials about how great Buffy is. What happens? Xander gets disfigured, Rona gets her arm broken. Buffy treated the potentials, most of the time, as cannon fodder. That's wrong. A side note- I never understood what was about the potentials being ‘chosen’. It could be a good thing they were chosen: Traits such as courage, or something bad such as naivety.

So being human gives you a free pass to kill someone? She would be sentenced to death by the courts for what she did but its not like Buffy could turn her over to the authorities.

See above. This is a whole, sketchy moral debate for another time, but there are flaws with the death penalty system, ranging from financial and costly time wise to it being a lousy form of justice, as it eliminates any chance of rehabilitation. Being human means so much, first, Anya gets freed from her vengeance powers and no one would have gotten killed. (I’m talking about season 7 here)
Anya deserves a chance to be a better person.


As for this whole… Buffy debate about her as a character, there are times I quite like her and admire her greatly (in season 5, post No Place Like Home) and times when I can’t stand her (whenever she gives a speech urgh)

 

[Robb Stark]

• Vengeance demons have to do vengeance. In Villains, Anya can sense Willow miles away. She also quotes as saying ‘I’d have to’. They grant the first wishes they hear. Vengeance is a business, a ruthless, cold cut world. Anya is trapped.

This doesn't fly. At all. Numerous people have brought up Anya's remorse after the fact. That means she knows what she's doing is wrong. She had a choice. There's very little to suggest otherwise. "My job expects it" is not in anyway a fair excuse. As Buffy says in "Lie to Me", you don't have a good choice, but you have a choice.

• Anya has superiors such as D’hoffryn. If she does not meet the needs and wants, she would be severely punished. As well as that, if she doesn’t inact vengeance, someone else would.

This is essentially the argument made by the Nazis. "Just following orders" didn't work then, it doesn't now. Plenty of people are murdered everyday, does that mean that because that happens, it's okay for me to just go out and kill whoever I want? No way that makes sense.

And let's not forget here. It was Anya who chose to become a vengeance demon again, knowing full well what that meant and entailed. I'd like to see your take on that. If evil is expected of her, why is she working for D'hoffryn?

• Buffy is clearly biased: she goes out of her well to help Willow at the end of season six, yet Anya doesn’t get that much benefit.

Well, not really. For starters, how is Buffy "biased"? She tries to discern how far gone Willow is, fights her and loses. It's Xander who ends up helping Willow. However, I do agree with the point that Buffy was far, FAR too forgiving of Willow. But still, you yourself said situations vary when talking about Xander. How does Anya correlate to Willow if Xander is immune for criticism after the way he treated Angel?

Secondly, Anya had a soul and a choice. Previously I’ve mentioned her mental state, but to add onto it, and to expand on it, I highly recommend everyone reads an essay by UC Berk. Law student Tiffany Kiristen Lee on Slayage, titled “The Justice Systems of Slayers and Vengeance Demons: Prosecutorial Discretion in Buffy the vampire slayer” It is quite long (the bibliography list is 7 and half pages long) yet these paragraphs are fascinating and very relevant to the point I’ve been, and will continue to make.

What exactly is her mental state, beyond a crappy situation that literally millions of people have gone through, that justifies mass-murder?

The problem is that yes, not having a soul is used as the biggest excuse for anything and everything, yet a vengeance demon is different. More complex. What Buffy did was wrong. She isn’t the law. She doesn’t respect the law at all. She doesn’t respect democracy. To her, she’s the police officer, all the way to the executioner. People often overlook that Anya is over a 1000 years old. She comes from a different language, she is torn between two worlds. She’s a demon, in a kill or be killed scenario. Her boss can burst her into flames within three seconds. Her body, physically feels when someone is feeling angry, and she has to come to them. How does Anya have a choice? What Buffy did was simplify this whole entire situation within her hands: the complexities were stark and obvious. It’s hard to not get the impression that Buffy just wanted to put this whole situation behind her as quickly behind her, and as someone who calls herself ‘the law’- that’s laziness. I am completely, 100% on Anya’s side in Selfless, as well as in season seven. Buffy’s constant naivety annoys me and frustrates me constantly. Whoever thought she’d make a good school councillor, I have no idea.

No, being a vengeance demon isn't more complex. It's just as evil. Willow was offered that spot and turned it down, with zero punishment. Nobody forced Anya to take up the job again (or indeed, take in in the first place a thousand years ago). If Willow can turn it down, why can't Anya? It's hardly "kill or be killed". And even if it is, so what? You don't get to kill 15 or more people to save your own skin. That's not okay. And as we saw from D'hoffryn essentially letting her go, it wasn't kill or be killed. It was a choice, just as Anya becoming a demon again was a choice. Tell me, who exactly forced her into that?

She does get drawn to people wanting vengeance, yes. But again, she knew all that ahead of time, and because she couldn't deal with her problems, she just decided not to care. What about that is inaccurate? Could Buffy have handled the situation better? Probably. There are a lot of things Buffy could have done better that season (really does feel like we should make a thread about this). But giving Anya the benefit of the doubt, or just excusing her mass murder, isn't one of them when the evidence is so plain. And no, just because she gave Willow a pass, wrongly I might add, doesn't mean Anya magically gets one too. Because Buffy screws up doesn't mean she should keep screwing up to keep things "fair". This isn't second grade.

You seem to be really focused on Buffy's actions as a whole in S7, without really considering the scope of what Anya did. Her "mental state" doesn't play into it. There is literally nothing to suggest she was insane, had snapped or anything like that. She was sad. She was embarrassed. Did her situation with Xander suck? Absolutely, no one is disputing that. But people get left at the alter all the time. Doesn't mean they're allowed to kill people and get a pass because they can't deal with it.

 

[itssmiletime]

This doesn't fly. At all. Numerous people have brought up Anya's remorse after the fact. That means she knows what she's doing is wrong. She had a choice. There's very little to suggest otherwise. "My job expects it" is not in anyway a fair excuse. As Buffy says in "Lie to Me", you don't have a good choice, but you have a choice.



This is essentially the argument made by the Nazis. "Just following orders" didn't work then, it doesn't now. Plenty of people are murdered everyday, does that mean that because that happens, it's okay for me to just go out and kill whoever I want? No way that makes sense.

And let's not forget here. It was Anya who chose to become a vengeance demon again, knowing full well what that meant and entailed. I'd like to see your take on that. If evil is expected of her, why is she working for D'hoffryn?



Well, not really. For starters, how is Buffy "biased"? She tries to discern how far gone Willow is, fights her and loses. It's Xander who ends up helping Willow. However, I do agree with the point that Buffy was far, FAR too forgiving of Willow. But still, you yourself said situations vary when talking about Xander. How does Anya correlate to Willow if Xander is immune for criticism after the way he treated Angel?



What exactly is her mental state, beyond a crappy situation that literally millions of people have gone through, that justifies mass-murder?



No, being a vengeance demon isn't more complex. It's just as evil. Willow was offered that spot and turned it down, with zero punishment. Nobody forced Anya to take up the job again (or indeed, take in in the first place a thousand years ago). If Willow can turn it down, why can't Anya? It's hardly "kill or be killed". And even if it is, so what? You don't get to kill 15 or more people to save your own skin. That's not okay. And as we saw from D'hoffryn essentially letting her go, it wasn't kill or be killed. It was a choice, just as Anya becoming a demon again was a choice. Tell me, who exactly forced her into that?

She does get drawn to people wanting vengeance, yes. But again, she knew all that ahead of time, and because she couldn't deal with her problems, she just decided not to care. What about that is inaccurate? Could Buffy have handled the situation better? Probably. There are a lot of things Buffy could have done better that season (really does feel like we should make a thread about this). But giving Anya the benefit of the doubt, or just excusing her mass murder, isn't one of them when the evidence is so plain. And no, just because she gave Willow a pass, wrongly I might add, doesn't mean Anya magically gets one too. Because Buffy screws up doesn't mean she should keep screwing up to keep things "fair". This isn't second grade.

You seem to be really focused on Buffy's actions as a whole in S7, without really considering the scope of what Anya did. Her "mental state" doesn't play into it. There is literally nothing to suggest she was insane, had snapped or anything like that. She was sad. She was embarrassed. Did her situation with Xander suck? Absolutely, no one is disputing that. But people get left at the alter all the time. Doesn't mean they're allowed to kill people and get a pass because they can't deal with it.

"My job expects it'' is an excuse and a very valid one. Feel free to make comparisons to Anya to the Nazis (more on that later), but if someone has pretty much the threat of death over their heads, but Anya can at least have some sort of control over the vengeance. It may be small, but it's some. I'm not saying that Anya should just get away with it, I'm saying that the situation is extremely complex for reasons I've listed heaps of times prior. This situation is different to Lie To Me, as Anya had a choice: continue vengeance or die within seconds. Buffy had a choice: to try to help Anya, or try to kill Anya. She chose the latter, and that is where my problem lies. If she actually bothered to think for a second, she'd might be able to improve a situation.

I feel you are taking my argument out of context. "˜'it's okay for me to just go out and kill whoever I want''. I'll say this. If someone is pointing a gun to your head, and says that if you don't kill said person they'll kill that person and in my opinion, no matter what your choice is, you don't deserve a sword in your chest. (and by the way, I really hope you don't try to twist what I'm saying to support Nazism) Anya, didn't deserve to die. She's not a horrible, evil person. What I'm not saying is this: Because murder is happening in today's world, that makes it okay.

Yes, Anya did make the decision to become a vengeance demon. At her emotionally lowest, weakest point in probably her existence. She might deserve some flack for the decision, but she was distressed, sick and in shock. Was she in the right mind to make a decision? She is working for D'Hoffryn, as after all, he offered her a job.

Buffy is biased because she randomly choses who she helps, and who she dismissed. When she finds out Spike is killing again in Sleeper, she says "˜I'll have to see it for myself' with Willow, it is "˜I'll talk to her'. But with Anya, she quickly says "˜I have to kill Anya'. That is being biased.

About Xander: Seriously, people, that was 4-5 years by that point. People change and grow up. Whilst I do think he was lacking with compassion when it came with Spike, Buffy was going to kill someone, and Xander thought it was wrong, so he spoke up. Mentioning past wrongs doesn't change that his opinion in the right now is actually, rather, accurate.

Anya's mental state: Well, hey, I'm no psychiatrist, but I definitely know that girl is fragile and sick. Buffy was so compassionate to Faith (another example of being bias- in This Year's Girl, she says that Faith might be "˜scared') so why can't she be compassionate to Anya? And it is essential to this argument, it's essential to the concept of justice. 90% of the characters in BTVS are a mystery. Anya is. We have over centuries that we know nothing about. We don't know what she is like when she is alone by herself.

The complexities of a vengeance demon is that they can return to being back human, and that's what I meant. That's what separate them from other demons. I am not justifying Anya's mass murder, what I'm against is the idea of Buffy killing her. When I say I'm on Anya's side, I mean I'm on the side of Anya that wants to reverse it, that wants to give it up. We can talk deus ex machinas all day, but the fact that Anya wanted to reverse it means a lot. We've seen mystical deaths and resurrections before (Bargaining) and we know its possible. The deaths of those college boys were reversed, and her willingness to sacrifice herself, and sacrifice is the most glorified thing in the universe- Doyle, Buffy, - and that why it means a lot. The willingness to die for what is right.

I am not saying that Anya should get away with it or get a free pass. What I am saying is that she shouldn't be killed, she should be turned back into human and mortal.

And I fully understand the scope of Anya's actions. What makes you think I don't? Because someone, is actually willing to play devil's advocate and stand up for her a bit? And what the hell, her mental state doesn't play in it? In effective justice, you take into the other person's mental state. Only some sick twisted justice system doesn't. Such ideas as mental states make the situation and characters more complex, and Buffy is so resistant to it- she has to "˜cut herself off'. An effective justice system knows, or at least attempts to know everything about the parties involved, who they are, motives, etc.

And yeah, I'm focused on Buffy's actions in season 7. Maybe as a whole. I could write an essay on why Buffy's little speech to Andrew in Storyteller was condescending, awful, hypocritical and mean spirited. Or her flaws with leadership. Or how I was so happy with zero shame when Caleb chucked her across the room in Dirty Girls, that it would make my top 5 most satisfying moments in BTVS. Or how to me, there is no justification for her actions in Get It Done, and that I don't want anything to do with anyone that supports them. But those are for another time. Don't assume that I am naà¯ve, or I am not "˜considering' the full scope of the situation. A lot of what you said in your post, really twisted and warped what I said.

 

[Robb Stark]

"My job expects it'' is an excuse and a very valid one. Feel free to make comparisons to Anya to the Nazis (more on that later), but if someone has pretty much the threat of death over their heads, but Anya can at least have some sort of control over the vengeance. It may be small, but it's some. I'm not saying that Anya should just get away with it, I'm saying that the situation is extremely complex for reasons I've listed heaps of times prior. This situation is different to Lie To Me, as Anya had a choice: continue vengeance or die within seconds. Buffy had a choice: to try to help Anya, or try to kill Anya. She chose the latter, and that is where my problem lies. If she actually bothered to think for a second, she'd might be able to improve a situation.

I wasn't comparing Anya to the Nazis. I probably should have been clearer, but I was saying that the justification of what your post said was comparable to the Nazi defense at Nuremburg. Very different things. I never intended to say Anya was like the Nazis. If you reread the context of my post, I think that's fairly clear. If it isn't, then I apologize.

I feel you are taking my argument out of context. "˜'it's okay for me to just go out and kill whoever I want''. I'll say this. If someone is pointing a gun to your head, and says that if you don't kill said person they'll kill that person and in my opinion, no matter what your choice is, you don't deserve a sword in your chest. (and by the way, I really hope you don't try to twist what I'm saying to support Nazism) Anya, didn't deserve to die. She's not a horrible, evil person. What I'm not saying is this: Because murder is happening in today's world, that makes it okay.

It's possible I misinterpreted what you said, rereading your post. My bad if I did.

However, this isn't what I said at all. There was no gun to Anya's head. Maybe I need to rewatch the episode, but I don't understand where you're coming from when you say that. D'hoffryn proved that. He let her go with zero repercussions (and don't worry, I'm fully aware that you're not supporting the Nazis 🙂). Call me crazy, but I don't think that mass-murder is alright just because those people might be killed by someone else. I really, truly don't.

Yes, Anya did make the decision to become a vengeance demon. At her emotionally lowest, weakest point in probably her existence. She might deserve some flack for the decision, but she was distressed, sick and in shock. Was she in the right mind to make a decision? She is working for D'Hoffryn, as after all, he offered her a job.

This is going to sound harsh, but I don't care. I don't care "what she was going through", because it doesn't justify going back to a guy who is going to ask you to kill for him. That's nothing but sheer weakness because Anya needs to feel needed. If that makes me a jerk, so be it, but if we're going to compare real life situations to fiction, I've been through far worse than being left at the alter, and I didn't decide to turn into a murderer. Buffy, Angel, Spike, Gunn, Wes and Giles all go through a whole hell of a lot worse than Anya, and they don't go ballistic. They react like decent people. Anya does not.

(And this is an aside, but "shock" is a life-threatening medical condition. It's not something you experience from emotional distress. You can be "shocked", as in totally surprised or blindsided, but you're not going through "shock" as someone who actually has the affliction is. SO many people don't get that, although I'm now realizing this isn't really all that relevant...)

Buffy is biased because she randomly choses who she helps, and who she dismissed. When she finds out Spike is killing again in Sleeper, she says "˜I'll have to see it for myself' with Willow, it is "˜I'll talk to her'. But with Anya, she quickly says "˜I have to kill Anya'. That is being biased.

Fair point. I will say that I think it's a very normal reaction to give those you deeply care about more of your understanding and time than someone you don't like. That isn't unique to Buffy. Is that "fair"? No, but we all do it to some degree in our lives. The problem is though that, in this instance, even though you're right in the sense that Buffy could have taken more time for Anya, she was guilty. She did kill those guys.

The complexities of a vengeance demon is that they can return to being back human, and that's what I meant. That's what separate them from other demons. I am not justifying Anya's mass murder, what I'm against is the idea of Buffy killing her. When I say I'm on Anya's side, I mean I'm on the side of Anya that wants to reverse it, that wants to give it up. We can talk deus ex machinas all day, but the fact that Anya wanted to reverse it means a lot. We've seen mystical deaths and resurrections before (Bargaining) and we know its possible. The deaths of those college boys were reversed, and her willingness to sacrifice herself, and sacrifice is the most glorified thing in the universe- Doyle, Buffy, - and that why it means a lot. The willingness to die for what is right.

The difference though is that Doyle, Buffy, Angel, Spike sacrificed themselves in the most selfless way possible. Maybe I'm a cold-hearted bastard but I think that if you kill a bunch of people, and then get a shot to bring them back at the cost of your own life, that's an obligation. You SHOULD want to do that. I commend her bravery, but it's a little hard for me to give her props morally for it when she killed them for no reason in the first place. I never said Anya isn't brave. Clearly, she is (or well, most of the time anyways). Brave doesn't mean good.

I am not saying that Anya should get away with it or get a free pass. What I am saying is that she shouldn't be killed, she should be turned back into human and mortal.

Then on this, we agree 🙂.

I never wanted Buffy to kill Anya. My take on lethal force has always been that if they aren't an immediate, life-threatening threat to you, take them alive. However, the fact that Anya basically forgets about it an episode or two later is pretty lame. Maybe that's more of a writer fault, but when does it get brought up again? I know it's tough to jail someone like Anya, but legally she'd be in prison for the rest of her life (assuming any legal system could wrap their heads around demons and the like).

And I fully understand the scope of Anya's actions. What makes you think I don't? Because someone, is actually willing to play devil's advocate and stand up for her a bit? And what the hell, her mental state doesn't play in it? In effective justice, you take into the other person's mental state. Only some sick twisted justice system doesn't. Such ideas as mental states make the situation and characters more complex, and Buffy is so resistant to it- she has to "˜cut herself off'. An effective justice system knows, or at least attempts to know everything about the parties involved, who they are, motives, etc.

And yeah, I'm focused on Buffy's actions in season 7. Maybe as a whole. I could write an essay on why Buffy's little speech to Andrew in Storyteller was condescending, awful, hypocritical and mean spirited. Or her flaws with leadership. Or how I was so happy with zero shame when Caleb chucked her across the room in Dirty Girls, that it would make my top 5 most satisfying moments in BTVS. Or how to me, there is no justification for her actions in Get It Done, and that I don't want anything to do with anyone that supports them. But those are for another time. Don't assume that I am naà¯ve, or I am not "˜considering' the full scope of the situation. A lot of what you said in your post, really twisted and warped what I said.

You ask me not to twist and warp your words (which I don't think I did, or if I did, it certainly wasn't intentional), don't do it to mine, alright? I've never once, not once, said you're wrong because you're on the other side of the argument. I never do that. I may not agree with you, but I listen to you. I listen to everybody.

Likewise, I never said that a justice system shouldn't account for mental state. You've just decided to twist what I said. What I did say was that Anya's mental state at the time wasn't nearly bad enough to excuse her for what she did. She wasn't "crazy". She wasn't "sick". She doesn't appear to have any mental conditions at any period on the show that would deem her "not legally responsible" for what she did. THAT is what I said.

I think I've proven over my time here that I'm a pretty fair-minded guy. I never say to people "you're wrong and that's it". I haven't here. I can tell you're emotional about the subject, and I won't presume to guess why. However, please be aware that I don't know your personal circumstances, as you don't know mine. I'll always treat you with respect, no matter how wide the gulf of disagreement is. Please do the same for me.