Buffy ep by ep; FOOL FOR LOVE-fangs and flashbacks

[zobothehobo]

I personally find it a bit obnoxious when people feel the need to post in a thread about something they hate and be negative. You don't see me posting in the Angel-centric episode threads saying "I hate Angel." I do hate Angel but why be negative and talk about that when I could come to a Spike-centric episode discussion and talk about how much I love Spike. I agree, no need for name calling or insults on both sides... but there's also no need to come to a thread with the purpose of being negative.

 

[Username]

Well I did not have any intentions with my post to offend any Spike fans, by saying I think that he is ridiculous.
Seeing as it is my post I was only expressing my opinion, which is that I think this episode is boring, I am obviously not a big Spike fan and I do think he is a bit ridiculous. Did not write that people who do like Spike are dumb, or that people who like this episode are wrong for it. So I don't see what the problem was.

---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 AM ----------

"Unnecessary negativity" ? How many posts aren't there about how much Kennedy and Riley sucks, or how annoying Dawn is ?
But of course my post was terrible because it was about Spike....

 

[zobothehobo]

"Unnecessary negativity" ? How many posts aren't there about how much Kennedy and Riley sucks, or how annoying Dawn is ?
But of course my post was terrible because it was about Spike....

I feel the need to defend myself, but I did respond in karma last time to keep this from going on because it's an argument that doesn't need to happen and it's off topic.

When I post about Kennedy, Dawn, or Riley, it's in threads dedicated to negativity for the most part. For instance, "My Kennedy Rant" or "The Problem With Dawn." If it's an episode discussion of an episode centered around a character I don't like, I just won't respond to that thread. And if I do, and I can't recall a time I have, but if I do, it will be something a bit more substantial than "I don't like the central character of this episode. He/she is ridiculous." That's unnecessary negativity. It contributes nothing to the discussion of the episode, only states that you have a negative opinion of it's central character. It's like "gee, thanks for that bout of negativity, do you have a point?" I just don't understand why someone would feel the need to come to a thread discussing an episode just to tell everyone they don't like it or a character. No other purpose... JUST to say "I don't like it." No reason, no discussion... just "I don't like it." It's unnecessary and it's negative.

 

[Username]

I feel the need to defend myself, but I did respond in karma last time to keep this from going on because it's an argument that doesn't need to happen and it's off topic.

When I post about Kennedy, Dawn, or Riley, it's in threads dedicated to negativity for the most part. For instance, "My Kennedy Rant" or "The Problem With Dawn." If it's an episode discussion of an episode centered around a character I don't like, I just won't respond to that thread. And if I do, and I can't recall a time I have, but if I do, it will be something a bit more substantial than "I don't like the central character of this episode. He/she is ridiculous." That's unnecessary negativity. It contributes nothing to the discussion of the episode, only states that you have a negative opinion of it's central character. It's like "gee, thanks for that bout of negativity, do you have a point?" I just don't understand why someone would feel the need to come to a thread discussing an episode just to tell everyone they don't like it or a character. No other purpose... JUST to say "I don't like it." No reason, no discussion... just "I don't like it." It's unnecessary and it's negative.

My post wasn't necesseary thats right, but nor is it important, does it really bother you that much that I wrote that I think Spike is a bit ridiculous. ?

This thread exists so that you can discuss it, and I have the right to post how I feel about it, I did and I simply explained why I didn't like it, I didn't insult anyone.
all I wrote was that this episode was boring to me and why, so what?!

 

[zobothehobo]

My post wasn't necesseary thats right, but nor is it important, does it really bother you that much that I wrote that I think Spike is a bit ridiculous. ?

This thread exists so that you can discuss it, and I have the right to post how I feel about it, I did and I simply explained why I didn't like it, I didn't insult anyone.
all I wrote was that this episode was boring to me and why, so what?!

Look, no it is not important to me you don't like Spike. All I'm saying is it is a bit annoying to come to a thread and see unnecessary negativity. That's it. Your post was unnecessary and negative and contributed nothing to the discussion of the episode. All you did was announce you didn't like the episode and the central character and that was it. It was a little annoying. I'm not the one who took a big issue with it, Litheran was. I was just saying I get why he's annoyed you posted that. Because I'm annoyed you posted that. It contributed nothing to the discussion of this episode whatsoever. It had no purpose other than to be negative.

Now, can we please drop this?

 

[FetalPig]

What I like about this is the way the subtext comes to the surface and we get to see the situation from different perspectives.
Yes Spike is ridiculous. How can anyone miss that? He never had a problem with self-agrandizement (even if it's not a real word). He plays to the crowd, sometimes even when there isn't one.

"First I had to get myself a gang." C'mon. 🙄

And Buffy certainly thinks he is ridiculous. But also neccessary. And fascinating.
That's the bit i don't get. How can you think he is boring? 😉 i get that you do, but I'm fascinated! I think that Buffy is a bit bored at times too. Subtext again. Why is Spike telling her about Cecily? (Yay Cecily 🙂 ) It's not on her agenda at all. It's Spike's agenda, and I'm not sure he realises what he's doing. Telling her about unrequited love, his heart (with a bulge in 't), and how he was sired. He is fighting his obsession with Buffy, but I think his unconscious is working against him. Mutiny!! (or perhaps it's deliberate in which case he's a LOT more manipulative than i give him credit for). Sometimes the subtext just comes spilling out.

So he starts to get to the bit Buffy is interested in (feeding him for, even). The Slayer in the Boxer Rebellion. And Spike is all about his unbridled passion for the hunt. Seeking out the Slayer other Vampires are afraid of. Can we say Death Wish? And the back story with Angelus, who I always took to be the 'leader' of the four (he thinks he is and Darla seems to follow his passions) but they are all pulled along in Spike's wake. So whose gang is it, actually? Especially when you consider Angelus' back story and feeding habits at the time.

So New York. And Spike literally draws Buffy into the story - playing out the fight in the subway/alley. Leading up to his revelation that it's about the slayers themselves. Just as Dracula said about the dark side: there is a part of each Slayer that they don't understand about themselves. Spike sees it as a Death Wish. He sees affinity because that's what he wants. But it doesn't make him wrong. And as things pan out Buffy will have to come to terms with what he sees no matter what name it gets given in the end. At this stage she (each of them?) sees what they want and is left grasping at the subtext because of her/his agenda. Tantalising. But it's too much for Buffy. She has way too much on her plate. When Spike presses his point she is brought back to the here and now and rejects him. The story has come full circle. He is beneath her .. can i say ... obnoxious? 😉

 

[Username]

"First I had to get myself a gang." C'mon. 🙄

And Buffy certainly thinks he is ridiculous. But also neccessary. And fascinating.
That's the bit i don't get. How can you think he is boring? 😉 i get that you do, but I'm fascinated!

Haha, well it's not so much that I think Spike is boring, there are several times and episodes were I do like him and I don't think he's boring at all. That last scene in Doomed is one of the funniest ones on the show! 😀
But I'm not that invested in his story, Spike is character that I don't really care that much about so watching a bunch of flashbacks of his life did not interest me.

 

[Icarium]

The ending of this episode makes me sick. Oh, wait, is this " unnecessary negativity" too?

I can't really like an episode in which Willow, Giles and Xander are basically wallpapers. Also the premise is ridiculous - why would Buffy ask Spike for advice? Apart from not being trustworthy in the slightest, it's not as if he actually knew much about the Slayers he killed. Plus, Buffy's astonishment that some random vamp could hurt her feels very contrived - what, she has never struggled against an opponent weaker than her on paper? She can't realise that they only need to get lucky once why she needs to best them every night? Come on now. Couldn't they have found another excuse for an episode dedicated to showing how special Spikey is?

 

[StarSlayer]

I must be in minority on this but i think this episode is the most boring one in entire show. I´m always dreading watching this whenever I do a rewatch of the show, my heart won't allow me to skip any episodes so I have to watch it, though I would even rather watch an Ingmar Bergman film than this.. It just has too much Spike, I like Spike in small doses but here he comes off so ridiculous.

I'm really curious what you find boring and why you find Spike ridiculous in the episode, and I say that with sincerity 🙂 I thought it was one of the most engaging episodes, not just because we learned a lot about Spike, but because it spoke to Buffy's fears.

I can't really like an episode in which Willow, Giles and Xander are basically wallpapers. Also the premise is ridiculous - why would Buffy ask Spike for advice? Apart from not being trustworthy in the slightest, it's not as if he actually knew much about the Slayers he killed. Plus, Buffy's astonishment that some random vamp could hurt her feels very contrived - what, she has never struggled against an opponent weaker than her on paper? She can't realise that they only need to get lucky once why she needs to best them every night? Come on now. Couldn't they have found another excuse for an episode dedicated to showing how special Spikey is?

Buffy asked Spike for advice because he was the only one around who could provide her with the information she wanted (or so she thought in the beginning). The Watchers' Council didn't write anything specific about a slayer's final battle. So, why not seek out one who had firsthand knowledge, since he was there? Seems pretty logical to me 🙂

And yes, Buffy struggled against opponents weaker than her but it was different now. She was training harder than ever (and defeated some major big bads with the Immortal, the Mayor, etc), and she almost got killed by a regular vampire? Of course she would be shocked/astonished, and that led her wanting to know more about avoiding another slip up. She thought it was about the moves, but as Spike said, it's not about that. It's about having a death wish and secretly wondering what death is like.

So, while the episode is dedicated to Spike, it also says a good deal about Buffy and slayers.

 

[Icarium]

. She thought it was about the moves, but as Spike said, it's not about that. It's about having a death wish and secretly wondering what death is like.

And Spike knows that how exactly? It's not as if he knew Nikki Wood and the Chinese Slayer as people, he merely killed them. Does Buffy know the thought processes of say Adam or Gwendolyne Post or The Master just because she killed them? Spike is talking nonsense, as usual, and I don't see why Buffy needs to listen to him. We see him embelishing even the facts of his own life, so his opinion about the "death wish" is more than a bit suspect. Buffy could have easily died tens of times so far in the series, if only she had been unlucky or Xander, Willow or Giles hadn't been right on time to help her, does that mean she had a death wish all along?

 

[Username]

I'm really curious what you find boring and why you find Spike ridiculous in the episode, and I say that with sincerity 🙂 I thought it was one of the most engaging episodes, not just because we learned a lot about Spike, but because it spoke to Buffy's fears.

It's not just this episode, Spike is always ridiculous to me but that doesn't really bother me otherwise, but since this episode is mainly about Spike it becomes too much for me to stomach, and Spike as I've said before is not a character that I care about very much, and IMO this episode serves no other purpose than to please the 'we love Spike' crowd.

Okey, the issues that I have with Spike is that when I watch the show I get this very strong feeling that I´m supposed to think that Spike is this cool and sexy character, but I look at him and I just don't see it.
He went from William to Spike. Spike ? How can I take someone with that name seriously?
He is the big bad, he is evil but he dresses like he's on his way to a costume party were the theme of the party is 'dress like a super villian from the future'.

But I don't dislike Spike, I just don't care about him and I don't think he is hot. 😀

 

[TheVoid68]

This is a thread for the discussion of "Fool for Love". Negative opinions are just as welcome as positive ones, and taking anyone's opinion on it personally is just silly.

Anyway, I loved this episode, I thought it was brilliant. As for Buffy going to Spike for advice - well, she was desperate for help. Spike was her best bet for getting information - he's a vampire who's killed two slayers, who better to ask for information on how past slayers died?

EDIT: ^Spike's overblown "coolness" is something I think is very clever considering his character. He picked this overblown persona as a deliberate attempt to distance himself from his past identity as William, who he was ashamed of. I'm reminded somewhat of Jesse in the first episode, who after being turned referred to his past self as a "loser". Spike felt the same away, and wanted to remove himself from that and create his own identity. The flashbacks show us the gradual building of that identity - the scar in 1900, the bleached hair and the coat in 1977, the nicknames in the 1880s, etc. Of course, at the end of the episode he learns that all that was for nothing - he's still the same loser, "beneath" the woman he loves.

And before we learned all this, I thought that the "coolness" was still very appealing as a character trait, because it wasn't like we were just supposed to be constantly impressed like he's some sort of ultra-awesome Marty-Stu; his bravado was repeatedly undermined (think his first scene in "School Hard", when he's bragging to the vamps and then Drusilla enters, he drops his mask and behave suddenly sweetly - or pretty much the entirety of "Lover's Walk").

 

[StarSlayer]

And Spike knows that how exactly? It's not as if he knew Nikki Wood and the Chinese Slayer as people, he merely killed them. Does Buffy know the thought processes of say Adam or Gwendolyne Post or The Master just because she killed them? Spike is talking nonsense, as usual, and I don't see why Buffy needs to listen to him. We see him embelishing even the facts of his own life, so his opinion about the "death wish" is more than a bit suspect. Buffy could have easily died tens of times so far in the series, if only she had been unlucky or Xander, Willow or Giles hadn't been right on time to help her, does that mean she had a death wish all along?

Oh, oh...I'm convinced! 🙄

First, this isn't about the thought process of every villain Buffy has encountered. It's about the thought process of slayers. Spike became obsessed with hunting and killing the slayer when he found about them. He even studied them. He may not have known Nikki and the Chinese slayer personally, but he didn't have to. The only thing he needed to know was that they were slayers. That said enough about their thought process.

Second, how is Spike talking nonsense? Buffy's reaction shows that he knows exactly what he's talking about. She's dead silent, listening to him and then tells him to get out of her sight. She doesn't want to look at him or hear him talking about this "nonsense" anymore because she knows it is the truth. And Buffy could have died easily other times but, as Spike says, she's lasted this long (or kept on fighting) because she still has ties to this life. Her mom, Dawn, and the Scoobies.

 

[Icarium]

The only thing he needed to know was that they were slayers. That said enough about their thought process.

When Kendra died did she have a dead wish? I don't think so. I think it's really stupid to just assume every (or any for that matter) Slayer has a death wish. Spike is vastly deluded even about himself and now he is supposed to know more about Slayers from merely following and watching them than their own Watchers or heck more than Buffy herself? Come on now. This "Death wish" nonsense is coming from the guy who says stuff "All we have ever done is dance" to Buffy. We see again and again that he cannot understand the motives of those who fight not for money or for the thrills but because it's the right thing to do.

Second, how is Spike talking nonsense? Buffy's reaction shows that he knows exactly what he's talking about. She's dead silent, listening to him and then tells him to get out of her sight. She doesn't want to look at him or hear him talking about this "nonsense" anymore because she knows it is the truth.

Or maybe she is gullible enough to be afraid it might be the truth.

 

[StarSlayer]

It's not just this episode, Spike is always ridiculous to me but that doesn't really bother me otherwise, but since this episode is mainly about Spike it becomes too much for me to stomach, and Spike as I've said before is not a character that I care about very much, and IMO this episode serves no other purpose than to please the 'we love Spike' crowd.

Although I'm a Spike fan, I think the episode serves other purposes, as I mentioned above 🙂 Plus, it also proves Riley is a total ass IMO, lol!

Okey, the issues that I have with Spike is that when I watch the show I get this very strong feeling that I´m supposed to think that Spike is this cool and sexy character, but I look at him and I just don't see it.
He went from William to Spike. Spike ? How can I take someone with that name seriously?
He is the big bad, he is evil but he dresses like he's on his way to a costume party were the theme of the party is 'dress like a super villian from the future'.

But I don't dislike Spike, I just don't care about him and I don't think he is hot. 😀

It's fine if you don't like Spike (although I think you're crazy, lol), but as we learned from this episode, Spike isn't all that "bad-ass." There's still a part of him that is insecure William. As far as Spike's look goes, seems like both Billy Idol and Neo stole their looks from Spike, lol!

 

[Buffy Summers]

Since people in this thread have decided to demean others and apparently decide who may and may not post in threads on this board, it is being closed. This behavior will not be tolerated and I don't want to see it again.