Buffy ep by ep; LIES MY PARENTS TOLD ME-Oedipus calling

[sylvanscribe]

There is supposed to be a link between a person's personality and their post-vamp persona (confirmed by Angel in Season 3).

Yet Spike waves away his Mother's sexual advances and cruel jibes as "the demon talking."

So was this a continuity error ... or was Spike telling lies to himself?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I think Spike was lying to himself a bit.

 

[Taake]

I think Spike was lying to himself a bit.

hehe and I thank him for that because that scene made me a tad uncomfortable and had I been in his shoes I would have lied to myself too 🙂

 

[LadyLavinia]

There is supposed to be a link between a person's personality and their post-vamp persona (confirmed by Angel in Season 3).

Yet Spike waves away his Mother's sexual advances and cruel jibes as "the demon talking."

So was this a continuity error ... or was Spike telling lies to himself?

I believe that Spike was lying to himself. I think that Anne truly loved her son - vampire or not. But as a vampire, she said things that forced him to let go of her skirts and start his long road toward maturity. A journey that has not completed for Spike.

 

[MysticMisfit]

The monster who killed Wood's mother died in that cave in Africa, redeemed by his love for Buffy

Wood himself more or less acknowledges this when he says to Spike:

No. I don't want to kill you, Spike. I want to kill the monster who took my mother away from me.

Surely he has to know that Spike with a soul != William the Bloody

Yet, he rationalizes it, and is content with getting a face morph out of Spike. That's enough for him. I can understand this position, because while Wood (or any person in that situation) would be able to intellectualize it, this idea that "this is no longer really the person/thing that killed my mother because it has a soul", we're dealing with feelings as opposed to thought. He motives here are clearly governed by the lower brain, the part that controls automatic function and emotion. We all have this and it is often at odds with logic and reason.

Also, I think that Giles' disdain for Spike hearkens back to S4, ever since he attempted to express a genuine debt of gratitude to Spike, in addition to making good on his promise to pay him in exchange for helping him earlier in the ep. Spike responds by telling Giles to "piss off" and is a huge dick toward him before kicking him out of his crypt. Back when I first saw the episode, I was pissed for Giles myself, and I'm pretty sure Spike never truly could have redeemed himself for that and for generally being a vicious vamp most of his life. Not in Giles' eyes. Its a little bit different than the grudge he held toward Angel (see: Angelus/Angel) for a while, and while Spike never tortured Giles the way Angelus did, I think its interesting to note that Giles seems to be more willing to understand about Angel and put his personal feelings aside eventually. Didn't he? I'm pretty sure he did; can't point to a specific instance as I haven't watched BTVS in some time and it was probably more like a grudging acceptance but still more than he'd ever give Spike.

The thing with vampires having souls is that they still are, for all intents and purposes, the same being. Though that's not technically correct. I mean, how easy would it be for you to forgive a person who murdered one of your loved ones, even when you knew they were genuinely remorseful for it years after the fact? They actually cried about it and lost sleep over it and wished they could take it back with all their might. They had nightmares over it and if given the chance would sincerely apologize (profusely) to you? I suppose this would be the closest thing to somebody suddenly getting a "soul" in real life. I can't imagine that too many people would care that the person who did something nasty to them or theirs was a changed person for the better later on in life. They'd never kill like that again, and their death would not reverse their past actions, but most people would still want revenge. The thing about it is that this probably never makes anything better anyway. All that said, I'm glad Wood was unsuccessful. 😛

As an aside - I don't know why exactly, but "Lies" was very cathartic for me.

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

Add:

Spike responds by telling Giles to "piss off"

but of course he takes the money

 

[LadyLavinia]

Wood himself more or less acknowledges this when he says to Spike:



Surely he has to know that Spike with a soul != William the Bloody

Yet, he rationalizes it, and is content with getting a face morph out of Spike. That's enough for him. I can understand this position, because while Wood (or any person in that situation) would be able to intellectualize it, this idea that "this is no longer really the person/thing that killed my mother because it has a soul", we're dealing with feelings as opposed to thought. He motives here are clearly governed by the lower brain, the part that controls automatic function and emotion. We all have this and it is often at odds with logic and reason.

Also, I think that Giles' disdain for Spike hearkens back to S4, ever since he attempted to express a genuine debt of gratitude to Spike, in addition to making good on his promise to pay him in exchange for helping him earlier in the ep. Spike responds by telling Giles to "piss off" and is a huge dick toward him before kicking him out of his crypt. Back when I first saw the episode, I was pissed for Giles myself, and I'm pretty sure Spike never truly could have redeemed himself for that and for generally being a vicious vamp most of his life. Not in Giles' eyes. Its a little bit different than the grudge he held toward Angel (see: Angelus/Angel) for a while, and while Spike never tortured Giles the way Angelus did, I think its interesting to note that Giles seems to be more willing to understand about Angel and put his personal feelings aside eventually. Didn't he? I'm pretty sure he did; can't point to a specific instance as I haven't watched BTVS in some time and it was probably more like a grudging acceptance but still more than he'd ever give Spike.

The thing with vampires having souls is that they still are, for all intents and purposes, the same being. Though that's not technically correct. I mean, how easy would it be for you to forgive a person who murdered one of your loved ones, even when you knew they were genuinely remorseful for it years after the fact? They actually cried about it and lost sleep over it and wished they could take it back with all their might. They had nightmares over it and if given the chance would sincerely apologize (profusely) to you? I suppose this would be the closest thing to somebody suddenly getting a "soul" in real life. I can't imagine that too many people would care that the person who did something nasty to them or theirs was a changed person for the better later on in life. They'd never kill like that again, and their death would not reverse their past actions, but most people would still want revenge. The thing about it is that this probably never makes anything better anyway. All that said, I'm glad Wood was unsuccessful. 😛

As an aside - I don't know why exactly, but "Lies" was very cathartic for me.

---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------

Add:


but of course he takes the money

I find it interesting that Giles was more forgiving of Angel's murderous actions in late Season 2, than Spike's dismissal of him in Season 4. There has to be something personal about Spike that rubbed Giles the wrong way. Or perhaps like Buffy, he tends to polarize Angel's souled and unsouled state. Like Buffy, he didn't see Angel and Angelus as the same person. Whereas, Spike's general personality didn't change much after he became souled.

 

[Kana]

I'd need to rewatch but I can't remember Giles having anything against soulledSpike. He has on occasion talked about killing Angel and SoulledSpike respectively for the greater good but I can't remember on either of those occasions, that he took it personally. He also implied that killing Dawn was an option but I don't think LMPTM has anything to do with his personal feelings towards Spike.

 

[MysticMisfit]

I'd need to rewatch but I can't remember Giles having anything against soulledSpike.

Well, IIRC Giles didn't interact with Spike very much in S7, but he bloody well gave Billy Idol's idol a piece of his mind in S6. Aside from discussing it matter-of-factly with Buffy in the cemetery as he stalled her while Wood (presumably) was occupied with the task of dusting Spike, the idea of sacrificing Spike seemed to be a total no-brainer for Giles but I could see that being strictly business for the most part. The little interaction he did have with Spike in that season though now, as I recall - one example is with the "Prokaryote stone" thing - Giles didn't pass up the urge to throw out some unfriendly tongue-in-cheek barbs at him, or then again it could have been that he was finally allowing himself to kid around with Spike in all sincerity.

Its all good though, because in the end when Giles asks Buffy "What did this?", she responds "Spike." I wonder what Giles thought of that. Only as a martyr could Souled-Spike be forgiven by Giles. 😉

But seriously, if I were Rupert I'd have held a grudge over that rude incident back at Spike's crypt in S4, but I always suspected that yeah, no matter what, Giles simply did not like (and would not have liked) Spike as a person/vamp in general, perhaps because of the personality but really a lot of that vitriol is based on the fact that Spike was one particularly ruthless vampire. That said, Angelus killed Jenny and tortured Giles which is more of a slight, one would think, but then again I probably do need to re-watch seasons 2-7 again sometime soon. I just always got the distinct impression that after a certain point it wouldn't have mattered to Giles what Spike did or said, excepting perhaps saving the world, which I guess he kind of did do, now didn't he? (Well, he helped in a huge way.)

Maybe Giles simply detested that Cockney accent. 😛

 

[DarlaDru]

I watched it yesterday and could just sum it up in that way: the flashbacks were awesome as usual. But does anyone know the name of William's mom? Has it been mention any time? Or was she always just "mom"?

 

[sisterofmercy]

I watched it yesterday and could just sum it up in that way: the flashbacks were awesome as usual. But does anyone know the name of William's mom? Has it been mention any time? Or was she always just "mom"?

Apparently she was called Anne.

 

[saturn5]

Apparently she was called Anne.

Buffy's middle name😉

 

[Goldilocks]

This is my favorite episode of season 7.. I love the flash backs with Spike as a human. And GOSH I LOVED to see how Spike kicked Wood's arse. That dude annoyed me sooo much.
And for the first time I felt that Giles is a betrayer (don't get me wrong).
The episode is great..

 

[VisionGirl]

I agree that this is one of the best episodes of season 7. I so dig the flashbacks!
Fav quote is Anya: "He could slaughter 100 frat boys (everyone stares at her)... forgiveness makes us human. Blahdy, blah, blah, blah."

or this whole exchange:

Robin: So, he has a trigger, a soul, and a chip?
Giles: Not anymore!
Buffy: It was killing him, Giles!
Robin: The trigger?
Buffy: No, the chip. The trigger's not active anymore.
Robin: Because the military gave him a soul?

I'm not really sure that Buffy did, in fact, move on past the feeling of betrayal. I think that she might have, realistically, looked past her newly realized distrust and feelings of betrayal by Giles temporarily in order to get his advice about her latest strategy, but I don't think that she either forgave or fully trusted him after that point. That would explain at least part of the reason why Giles recruits Faith's help in the Season 8 "No Future For You" arc AND Buffy's tearful reaction when she and Giles met for the first time this season. She missed him, she loved him, but, up until that moment, she wasn't actually ready to forgive him for what he conspired with Wood to do in Sunnydale. and, bear in mind, the fact that she might finally be able to forgive him in no way restores the absolute trust that she previously had in him.

I haven't followed the comics closely so i don't know what her reaction was like when she met Giles for the first time. What did they say to one another? Did she say she'd forgiven him?

There were no words, just a tearful embrace. Some people are satisfied with this reunion, I am not, particularly because I was so disappointed with how Giles & Buffy's relationship was left at the end of season 7.

Did Giles ever express remorse for his betrayal in S8? If not, then I believe that Buffy had forgiven him too soon.

No, he did not. Again, disappointing.

The bottom line is that Spike is not holding back from Buffy. I'm sure there is stuff in his past that he has not revealed to her, but he's not lying to her. That's another reason why she chooses him over Wood. I like that Wood decides to go ahead & get on board with everything in the end, but there is no way that Buffy can trust him like she does Spike. And unfortunately, Giles leaving in season 6 + his betrayal here really damages their relationship.