Buffy ep by ep; SEEING RED- here we go...!

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saturn5

Scooby
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Sep 13, 2009
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SEEING RED

The Good;
The Orb theft and the wonderful battle between Buffy and the Troika. Tara and Willow getting back together and Dawn's delighted reaction to it. And Anya still looking for the vengence.

The Bad;
Not so much bad as the ending and the bathroom scene are just shocking. Contrary to common belief you can see the jetpack under Warren's jacket as he's fighting Buffy although you wonder how Jonathon didn't notice? Warren doesn't so much abandon Andrew, he flies off and expects Andrew to follow him.

Best line;
Jonathon; (arrested and taken to the police station) "Uh oh. The BIG house"

Women good/men bad;
Anya's latest victim had her boyfriend cheat on her with her sister. Spike forcing himself on Buffy on the bathroom floor, rape the crime that subjugates women and demeans men. Waren calls Buffy 'superbitch'.

Jeez!;
I find the bathroom scene just unwatchable, Buffy's terrified, tearful pleading is just heartrending. So brutally realistic compared to what we saw between Darla and Angel in 'Reprise'. You also feel sorry for poor Buffy hurting her back. Sure she has Slayer healing but it still HURTS! Andrew actually yells "Kill her! Kill her!". Tara and Buffy shot, Willow soaked in Tara's blood.

Kinky dinky;
Spike's awful ravishing Buffy on the floor of the bathroom (if we don't count the Master the 6th time Buffy has been sexually assaulted unless someone can correct me?). Xander considers incest unsexy (and so say all of us!) although given some of the things he's fantasised about in the past you wonder if he'd turn down group sex with Jonathon's blonde Swedish twins from Superstar? Or with Buffy/Joyce/above-the-age-of-consent Dawn? The geeks have sexy action figures in their lair including interestingly Vampirella. Tara and Willow in their sheets. Check out Xander chatting up the beautiful girl in the bar, he's come a long way since High School. Xander refers to Buffy searching for hidden cameras as 'The spring poking'.

Captain Subtext;
Buffy seems quite intrigued by the Vampirella action figure in the Geeks lair. Andrew's desire to get his hands on Warren's orbs. You wonder who the Klingon love poems are written by and dedicated to? "He never really loved...hanging out with us". Willow and Tara give us a good idea of exactly what they got up to after the candle went out in New Moon Rising much to Dawn's delight "I love you guys!". When Willow and Tara say they'll stop kissing Dawn tells them 'Oh you'd better not'. Will says to Tara "Yes mam!". Spike and Buffy have discussion about the nature of love, Spike saying that it burns and consumes, Buffy saying that such fiery love doesn't last. Willow had an inkling something was going on between Spike and Buffy. You rather get the idea that Spike hangs around with Clem because he's lonely, Buffy might have sex with him but she doesn't actually like him, she doesn't want to talk with him or watch Knightrider marathons (Spike seems like a fan, mentioning KITT in a season 5 Angel ep). Buffy emasculates Warren by 'smashing his orbs'.

Guantanamo Bay;

Scoobies to the ER;
Xander get's pretty bloody from Warren's punch and Buffy's nasty backache and bruise. Buffy and Tara shot at the end.

Missing scenes;

Apocalypses; 6

Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage: astonishingly Tara gets through three years as a Scooby without being tied up even once! (unless that's something she and Willow are into?)
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 4
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 2
Dawn; 4

Scoobies knocked out:
Buffy: 17
Giles: 12
Cordy: 6
Xander: 12
Will: 8
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 3
Wes: 1
Anya;3
Dawn; 2
Tara; 1

Kills: 1 vamp Buffy
Buffy: 107 vamps, 56 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 6 vamps + 3 demons +1 fawn.
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1½ a demon,
Anya: 1 vamp and 1½ a demon
Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons
Spike; 8 vamps and 4 demons
Buffybot; 2 vamps
Tara; 1 demon
Dawn; 1 vamp

Scoobies go evil: no but wait for it
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 4
Anya; 1
Dawn; 1
Buffy; 1

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 1
Will: 3
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4
Tara; 1
Dawn;1
Spike; 1
Anya; 2

Recurring characters killed: byebye Tara who finally made it into the opening titles only to leave us forever. Watched this first at a convention where people cheered when she showed up in the opening credits and wept openly when she died (oddly the previous week I'd watched Xena's last ep at another convention, I seemed to spend most of that year surrounded by crying lesbians). 12
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara

Sunnydale deaths;
94

Total number of scoobies: 4-Spike and Anya gone but Tara back in
Xander, Willow, Buffy, Tara

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?)
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Buffy and Tara
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4
Riley; 1
Buffy; 1
Tara; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost:
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore
Spike; 2 Buffy and Anya
Anya; 2 Spike and Xander

Spike; good or bad?
Now I was quite amazed how when this came out how many people sought to excuse Spike for the Buffyrape, they actually said things like 'Oh she led him on, she gave out mixed signals' etc and referred to the scene in the Bronze in Dead Things as proof. I actually challenged people on The Bronze by asking them was Buffy 'asking for it'? Spike tries to rape Buffy and had she been anyone but the Slayer he would surely have succeeded. As he says 'I would never..' and she correctly replies "Because I stopped you!" and "Now ask me why I can never love you!". Ultimately I think Spike loves Buffy as much as he's able to,'quite well' as Dru says in Crush and has done many heroic things but without a soul he can never be good, he is the serial killer in prison obeying the rules for his own benefit. Xander is 100% right about him. And Buffy can't truly love him not only because of what he's done but because he has no soul, he's not the full package.

Dawn in peril; 9

Dawn the bashful virgin; 9 plays the TV really loud to drown out the Willow/Tara sex

What the fanficcers thought;
Needless to say many sought to bring Tara back through various literary devices (and the same with Joyce and Cordy). Personally I have no problem with that as long as there is some form of price to be paid as there's been this season for bringing back Buffy, not just Willow did a spell and there she was. If you ever need a happy ending to any Buffy darkfic that upset you, here it is (don't be fooled by the title); The Rape of Buffy, a Buffy: The Vampire Slayer fanfic - FanFiction.Net

Questions and observations;
Spike still has his motorcycle from Bargaining. Another numbered t-shirt for Willow. I always thought that the blonde girl Anya chats up in the bar played Tru's best friend in Eliza Dushku's series Tru Calling but she isn't. Warren refers to Jonathon as 'The Shemp' which is a term coined by Sam Rami and Bruce Campbell in The Evil Dead and Clem seems to think that wrapping a wet towel around Spike's head will disable his chip an idea he seems to have garnered from Total Recall.
Marks out of 10; 8/10 fun, powerful but ultimately tragic
 
I think it's lame that they decided to go the route of making sure Spike could never be good without a soul. He'd done a lot of good things, even unselfish things, even without his soul. It's like they wanted to undo all that, so they made him do the most awful thing they possibly could to be sure there was no doubt. Out of character, plot contrivance, boo BOO BOO. It would have been much more interesting to continue his evolution without a soul, at least for awhile. I do not like this episode and I will never watch it again. I hate that they killed Tara too. Blah.
 
thevikingsgirl said:
I think it's lame that they decided to go the route of making sure Spike could never be good without a soul. He'd done a lot of good things, even unselfish things, even without his soul. It's like they wanted to undo all that, so they made him do the most awful thing they possibly could to be sure there was no doubt. Out of character, plot contrivance, boo BOO BOO. It would have been much more interesting to continue his evolution without a soul, at least for awhile. I do not like this episode and I will never watch it again. I hate that they killed Tara too. Blah.
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I don't see Spike trying to rape Buffy as out of character at all. Even after he was chipped and fell in love with Buffy he still;
1)Tried to kill the first girl he came across when he thought his chip wasn't working
2) Tried to sell demon eggs to slaughter everyone in As You Were
3) Boasted to Dawn of slaughtering an entire family and raping their 14 year old daughter
4) Aided Dru in killing a couple at The Bronze

I could go on. Raping Buffy is entirely in Spike's nature and until he get's his soul back he can NEVER be good.
Once he does of course the clock is reset, souled-Spike is not responsible for anything evil Spike did
 
G
GrrArghx
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I loved Dawn's reaction on Willow and Tara getting back together. What Spike did was terrible, no other word. Very sad episode. Never been a big fan of Tara, but I was sad because of Willow. And that shot in the chest was like a cherry on Buffy's hard life, but I think it was just a push for her to live.

7/10
 
I thought it was interesting that when Spike thought the chip wasn't working, he had to psych himself up to go feed on someone. His heart wasn't in it. You could tell there was conflict. Pre-soul. I thought As You Were was really stupid, but even so, there's a big difference between that and the scene in Seeing Red. I never denied that Spike used to be evil. I think one reason Dawn liked Spike so much was because he didn't try to emotionally shield her from everything. The scary stories of his past were an example of that IMO. I realize that sometimes shows (movies, books) are going to have obvious plot devices. I can forgive it, but it's still going to get on my nerves.
 
I think it was a little bit of a device, a wake up call to Spike that he could never be with Buffy as he was, but I agree with saturn that it was completely in character for Spike. Throughout the show even though he did good stuff on occasion he was still evil at his roots. I really like the scene with Spike and Clem where he finally realizes he has to get his soul back. Every time I rewatch the series I get excited knowing what path he decides to go down.
 
I find this episode to be one of my least favorite of the entire series. That whole scene in the bathroom felt so out of place and what Spike did felt so badly out of character that it just seemed like a heavily ham-fisted attempt to set up a situation where he'd want to get his soul back. It's like the writers felt that they weren't making season 6 dark enough (hah!) so they decided to bring rape into the mix. I love some of the episodes in S6 but ones like Seeing Red really make me wish that the series ended after The Gift.
 
Stakesteak said:
I find this episode to be one of my least favorite of the entire series. That whole scene in the bathroom felt so out of place and what Spike did felt so badly out of character that it just seemed like a heavily ham-fisted attempt to set up a situation where he'd want to get his soul back. It's like the writers felt that they weren't making season 6 dark enough (hah!) so they decided to bring rape into the mix. I love some of the episodes in S6 but ones like Seeing Red really make me wish that the series ended after The Gift.
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No, Spike is evil and Buffy and the audience needed to be reminded of that, it's totally in keeping with his character, remember the girl in the coalshed story?. Spike had to hit rock bottom to spur him into getting his soul back. And it's not like rape/sexual assault is new in the Buffyverse, we have it in The Pack, arguably in Prophecy Girl, Halloween, Go Fish, Who are you?, Once more with feeling, Get it done....
 
I definitely agree that Spike was still evil and I felt the show did a good job reminding us of that with those eggs he was hiding in a previous episode. That was definitely something that was very much in character and, even though I didn't quite understand what he felt he was gaining by doing it, could see him doing. My chief complaint about the bathroom scene is that it just didn't feel like something either the old, evil Spike would do or what the Spike who'd been fighting alongside the scoobies for over a year would do either. If he were doing it because he's evil, I felt that he would have gone about it a heck of a lot differently just as I find it hard to believe the Spike who's had quite the talent for reading Buffy couldn't read her signals that she was horrified. It was like he was just in some kind of messed up trance. If they wanted this to be his hitting rock bottom, I just felt that they could have done a much better job leading up to it so that it made more sense to me than just as a tool to necessitate his desire to get a soul.
 
T
thevikingsgirl
I agree except about the whole egg thing, which was really lame. But still more in character than the AR.
I don't think he went there thinking "I'm gonna rape Buffy" ..I think he more expected her to say "no" at first but then consent, but it took a while for him to realize that no meant no this time.
 
I
InsaneMystic
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Misty
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Vengeance said:
I don't think he went there thinking "I'm gonna rape Buffy" ..I think he more expected her to say "no" at first but then consent, but it took a while for him to realize that no meant no this time.
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Yeah, that's how I read it too, he thought it would be like the scene on the balcony in the Bronze
 
It's quite traumatising for me to watch actually - it's so cruel that willow has JUST got Tara back and she was so innocent when she got shot
 
I just feel sorry for James Marsters having to do that scene. Apparently he hated it and didn't want to do it in the first place. As for Tara's death...I didn't like her in the beginning, just as I didn't like Anya, but she grew on me and I feel bad for Willow. I like Tara more than Kennedy.
 
I think that one of the reasons that the attempted rape scene in "Seeing Red" affects people so strongly is that the actors involved, James especially, had such strong feelings of revulsion themselves at doing it. I also believe that, repulsive as it was, both to do and to watch, as the catalyst for finally sending Spike off on his quest to retain his soul (not as spur of the moment as it was presented, in my opinion, but that's beside the point here) the scene was exactly what was needed. It HAD to be something totally in keeping with what Spike, whether from an actual desire to be a better man or simply to be more attractive to Buffy, had been trying to suppress in his actual vampiric nature, something quite similar in that case as with Angel suppressing Angelus, though made far more difficult without the aid of a soul. At that moment, after weeks of first urging Buffy to "try out my world" and "you belong here in the dark, with me," to insisting that Buffy did, in fact, love him, and he would MAKE her admit it, Spike finally realized that, if he ever wanted any sort of real relationship with Buffy, he would have to be more than a soulless monster. Nothing less than a scene like that could have brought that fact home to him.
 
D
dan k
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