Buffy ep by ep; SELFLESS-vikings and vengence

It took Buffy half a school year, a failed re-ensouling attempt, the death of Jenny, Kendra as well as numerous other innocents and the imminent threat of the world being sucked into hell before she could fully bring herself to kill Angelus.

Yet she expects Xander to be ok with her decision to kill Anya after a discussion that lasted what, 5 minutes? Not to mention the fact that Anya actually helped save lives during the Dark Willow saga and that there were plenty of other solutions, as evidenced by Willow doing something as simple as summoning D'Hoffryn. This episode just further demonstrates how emotionally closed off Buffy is in season 7.
 
T
TheVoid68
THANK you
I love this episode. I'm currently in the middle of it in my re-watch and I'm reminded how much I love it. I love Anya so it makes sense that I'd love this most Anya centric episode. I do however have a big huge question. Why didn't someone just smash Anya's power center? Wouldn't that reverse the spell and make Anya human again? That just seems like a much simpler and less painful (emotional and physical) way to achieve the same result.

Seems that the writers completely forget about this aspect of vengeance demons. It hasn't really been mentioned again since season 3.
 
It took Buffy half a school year, a failed re-ensouling attempt, the death of Jenny, Kendra as well as numerous other innocents and the imminent threat of the world being sucked into hell before she could fully bring herself to kill Angelus.

Yet she expects Xander to be ok with her decision to kill Anya after a discussion that lasted what, 5 minutes? Not to mention the fact that Anya actually helped save lives during the Dark Willow saga and that there were plenty of other solutions, as evidenced by Willow doing something as simple as summoning D'Hoffryn. This episode just further demonstrates how emotionally closed off Buffy is in season 7.

Perfectly said. The Angelus and Anyanka situations are completely incomparable. With Angel, it was literally a choice between killing Angel or letting the entire world get sucked into hell. No maybes, no third options, she had to do one of the two. The scenarios would be comparable if, say, Buffy had killed Angel at the end of Innocence. But she didn't. She couldn't go through with it. And I'm not criticising Buffy in S2, I'm criticising her unbearable hypocrisy in this episode.
 
Perfectly said. The Angelus and Anyanka situations are completely incomparable. With Angel, it was literally a choice between killing Angel or letting the entire world get sucked into hell. No maybes, no third options, she had to do one of the two. The scenarios would be comparable if, say, Buffy had killed Angel at the end of Innocence. But she didn't. She couldn't go through with it. And I'm not criticising Buffy in S2, I'm criticising her unbearable hypocrisy in this episode.

I don't agree with you that she was hypocritical. That was the point, to show us that she grew up.. now she knows what's the best thing to do. It was right thing to kill Angel in Innocence, but she couldn't do it.. but she realized she has to kill Anya. Maybe those two subjects are not comparable because like you said, not killing Angelus would mean the end of the world, but still Anyanka would continue killing.. I don't see the third option there either, except maybe talking with her and telling her to stop being a vengance demon, but I really don't see that hapening..
 
I don't agree with you that she was hypocritical. That was the point, to show us that she grew up.. now she knows what's the best thing to do. It was right thing to kill Angel in Innocence, but she couldn't do it.. but she realized she has to kill Anya. Maybe those two subjects are not comparable because like you said, not killing Angelus would mean the end of the world, but still Anyanka would continue killing.. I don't see the third option there either, except maybe talking with her and telling her to stop being a vengance demon, but I really don't see that hapening..

The problem is that Buffy uses Xander's attitude in season 2, which she's still angry at him for, as an argument to kill Anya, but all it does is reveal her own hypocrisy. Xander was acually supportive, he didn't pressure her into killing Angelus for several months, despite the numerous individuals that died - until Jenny died. For example, in 'Phases', he comforts her after they killed Theresa, who was newly sired by Angelus. But Buffy wants to kill Anya after a discussion that lasted 5 minutes. In this case the world wasn't about to get sucked into hell, there were plenty of other options worth researching, as evidenced by Willow's simple actions that saved both the frat boys AND Anya.

Basically, Buffy cites her behavior in season 2 as a reason for why she's right, but it's her behavior in season 2 (letting Angel live in 'Innocence') that led to numerous deaths and the world almost getting sucked into hell. The situation in 'Selfless' was far from reaching those apocalyptic proportions. Buffy knew that there were other solutions, like the fact that a vengeance demon's wishes could be reversed.

Buffy can't have it both ways: either she was wrong in season 2 or she's right here, or the other way around. She claims to be right in both instances.
 
And letting Anya live wouldn't cause deaths of many people?

Buffy tried to correct a mistake she did many years ago.. not killing Angel when she had her chance.
 
S
soulunsung
So, let me get this straight...it's okay for Buffy to kill Anya?! Nope, sorry. Not gonna buy it for a bit.
T
TheVoid68
No, it wouldn't cause more deaths, as we saw in the episode Anya reversed her own spell and stopped killing
And letting Anya live wouldn't cause deaths of many people?

They've been faced with these situations before, and it never stopped Buffy from doing some research beforehand. There were plenty of other solutions some basic research would've uncovered. In season 2, the threat of the world getting sucked into hell didn't stop her from attempting to re-ensoul Angelus. Not to mention the common knowledge that a vengeance demon's wishes are reversible.

Buffy tried to correct a mistake she did many years ago.. not killing Angel when she had her chance.

But she's still angry at Xander for his attitude in season 2. If Xander was right in season 2, and she made a mistake then, why is she still criticizing him for his attitude in season 2? She's being hypocritical, that's why.

Plus, she never actually owns up to her mistake.
 
They've been faced with these situations before, and it never stopped Buffy from doing some research beforehand. There were plenty of other solutions some basic research would've uncovered. In season 2, the threat of the world getting sucked into hell didn't stop her from attempting to re-ensoul Angelus. Not to mention the common knowledge that a vengeance demon's wishes are reversible.

I see your point, but I still don't find Buffy hypocritical. She probably rushed to conclusions, but I'm still pretty sure this episode was susposed to show us how Buffy grew up. How she's not that girl anymore who is lost and don't know what to do.. Buffy saw the easy way out, and she took it.

But she's still angry at Xander for his attitude in season 2. If Xander was right in season 2, and she made a mistake then, why is she still criticizing him for his attitude in season 2? She's being hypocritical, that's why.

How do you mean Xander was right?
 
I see your point, but I still don't find Buffy hypocritical. She probably rushed to conclusions, but I'm still pretty sure this episode was susposed to show us how Buffy grew up. How she's not that girl anymore who is lost and don't know what to do.. Buffy saw the easy way out, and she took it.

If by 'easy way out' you mean being hypocritical and disregarding Xander's legitimate viewpoint, then I agree.

How do you mean Xander was right?
Well, Buffy (still) criticizes him for 'cheering her on' in season 2, but at the same time, she's willing to kill Anya after a discussion that lasted 5 minutes, despite the numerous alternatives, like the reversibility of a vengeance demon's wishes. And in season 2, the world was about to get sucked into hell and a re-ensouling attempt had just failed. Not to mention that Xander initially supported her for presumably several months after she refused to kill Angelus in 'Innocence', despite the numerous individuals that died and would die because of it.

As I said before, Buffy is using her actions in season 2 as a justification for killing Anya right away, but upon closer inspection the argument fails utterly and completely.
 
As I said before, Buffy is using her actions in season 2 as a justification for killing Anya right away, but upon closer inspection the argument fails utterly and completely.

I agree with this statement 100% emphatically, because I always believed there could have been another way of dealing with Anya, rather than just Buffy deciding she had to kill her because she was the Slayer and she was "the one" who had to do this. She was "the law."

It's funny to me, that so often people are willing to overlook certain hypocricies, when it comes to their favorite character's, instead of looking at the bigger picture. I know that I've been guilty of it a time or two and I don't like the idea of subscribing to that, but I've been making more of a conscious effort to look beyond and to look at the over-all picture instead of just one point.

---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

If Xander really wanted Angel -not Angelus- to die, then he'd have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel, except he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him."

He didn't like Angel, but that didn't mean he wanted him dead. That scene shows that Xander's reasons for wanting Angelus dead were NOT about jealousy and pettiness.

So, accusing Xander of being selfish and jealous about it is completely unfair.

Yes, this. And often times, I find the reasons people do accuse Xander of being selfish and jealous, is because they're trying to justify Buffy a greater portion of the time and they're trying to make it seem like Xander was heartless when it came to Buffy/Angel. Like he's still harboring jealousy issues when it comes to the two of them, because she gave Angel a shot and sort of shot him down.

Buffy's behavior in this episode when she makes the decision that she has to kill Anya and it doesn't matter how Xander feels about it or what he has to say, she's going to do what she thinks needs to be done, yet she's going to hold what Xander said and to her "kick his ass" and the fact that he didn't tell her that Willow was trying the spell again against him...that's just crap in my humble opinion.

I mean, there is always another way. People may not like to hear that, but there's always a choice and always another way. Granted the choices may not be likable ones and they may not be ones that people want to make and they're hard and mean for the most part, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Buffy was just being a hypocrite in this sense and overlooking the fact that Xander cared deeply for Anya the way that she cared for Angel.

I hate double standards and this one of them. We'll hold Xander responsible for S2, but we won't hold Buffy responsible for S7. Whatever. Phhbbtt!
 
soulunsung agrees: So, let me get this straight...it's okay for Buffy to kill Anya?! Nope, sorry. Not gonna buy it for a bit.

No, it wasn't the right thing. But she did what she thought it has to be done.

soulunsung agrees: No, she didn't have to kill Anya. That was a choice she was making, she could have found another way. There is always another way, whether people want to realize this or not.

Sorry, but sometimes there is only one way. Right way.
 
But as we saw in this episode itself, there was another way. Willow summoning D'Hoffryn and Anya reversing the spell by sacrificing herself was the other way. If Buffy had gotten off her high horse for 10 minutes she would've known that.
 
No, it wasn't the right thing. But she did what she thought it has to be done.

Sorry, but sometimes there is only one way. Right way.

That doesn't matter, because it shows her being extremely hypocritical. And honestly, there is always a choice. There were other ways that Buffy could have dealt with this, she just didn't want to. She wanted to make a point with Anya, no matter if it hurt Xander or not.
 
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