Buffy ep by ep; SMASHED-calm down Spuffers!

[saturn5]

SMASHED

The Good;
Everything with Amy and the Geeks at the museum/with Spike. Especially love Amy and Bufy catching up and Buffy jumping up and down to see over the crowd at the museum, reminding you for all her superpowers she's still a tiny little woman.

The Bad;
If the diamond is so valuable surely even in Sunnydale they'd have more security than some guy called Rusty?

Best line;
Buffy; "How have you been?"
Amy; "Rat. You?"
Buffy; "Dead"

Women good/men bad;
The 2 jerks who dance with Amy at the Bronze

Jeez!;
Don't mind the sex but dislike Spike hitting Buffy before they have sex, fine with a little slap and tickle/hairpulling roleplay but punching and kicking, it's all a little too brutal. It certainly brings the house down.

Kinky dinky;
Joss is right he does write pure porn. Naked Amy. Warren comments that 'size is everything'. Buffy says she thinks about Giles when she's kissing Spike. Must have done the Guffers' hearts good until she catches herself on. As Spike comments he may be into dark sexuality but he is a vamp, he should be treading on the darkside. Interesting point in the commentary that Joss made sure that Buffy kissed Spike first rather than him forcing the kiss on her and her succumbing after a little resistance gothic romance style.

Captain Subtext;
Spike comments that he's the only one 'here for you' in regard to Buffy which is very true. Amy wanted to go to the Prom with Larry, unaware he was gay. Tara and Dawn on the sofa, awwww! (lovely pic of that on the Buffy 2009 calender) Anyone else think that the girl Amy selects for Willow at the Bronze looks the spitting image of Cordelia? (Her stand-in/stunt double?) Maybe Amy picked up on something they never could admit to each other? Warren is concerned that when Spike asks him to examine his 'chip' it's British slang for something else.

Guantanamo Bay;

Scoobies to the ER;

Missing scenes;

Apocalypses; 6

Wheldon Cliches (with kind permission from Boo)

Scoobies in bondage:
Buffy: 8
Giles: 4
Cordy: 5
Will: 3
Jenny: 1
Angel: 4
Oz: 1
Faith: 3
Joyce: 1
Wes: 1
Xander; 1
Dawn; 3

Scoobies knocked out:
Buffy: 17
Giles: 12
Cordy: 6
Xander: 11
Will: 6
Jenny: 2
Angel: 6
Oz: 3
Faith: 1
Joyce: 3
Wes: 1
Anya;3
Dawn; 2

Kills: none but Buffy beats up 2 muggers
Buffy: 103 vamps, 41 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot
Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.
Cordy: 3 vamps, ½ a demon
Will: 6 vamps + 1 demon +1 fawn.
Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human
Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie
Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans
Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1½ a demon,
Anya: 1 vamp and 1½ a demon
Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons
Spike; 8 vamps and 2 demon
Buffybot; 2 vamps
Tara; 1 demon
Dawn; 1 vamp

Scoobies go evil:
Giles: 1
Cordy: 1
Will: 2
Jenny: 1
Angel: 1
Oz: 1
Joyce: 1
Xander: 4
Anya; 1
Dawn; 1

Alternate scoobies:
Buffy: 7
Giles: 4
Cordy: 1
Will: 3
Jenny: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 2
Joyce: 2
Xander: 4
Tara; 1
Dawn;1
Spike; 1

Recurring characters killed: 10
Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce

Sunnydale deaths;
93

Total number of scoobies: no more Tara or Giles so 5
Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Spike,

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Amy remarks on Xander's yen for demons so presumably she was always aware of the events of seasons 1-3
Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot:
Giles: 2
Angel: 3
Oz: 4
Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Buffy and Spike and how!
Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes?
Cordy: 1?
Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 1 possible, Dracula(?)
Angel: 1;Buffy
Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?)
Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca
Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley
Xander: 2; Faith, Anya
Willow: 2;Oz and Tara
Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore
Spike; 1 Buffy

Spike; good or bad?
Spike thinks he should be able to feast in muggers. He says he's at the museum out of compassion for the guard but he's surely lying, just an excuse to meet Buffy. Once he thinks his chip is not working he goes out to slaughter the first pretty girl he can find but seems to need to psych himself up to do so.

Dawn in peril; 7

Dawn the bashful virgin; 5

Questions and observations;
Buffy always wanted a pony. Maybe CC let her ride hers? The mugging scene is funny, nice to have some lightness as the writer comments. Spike can punch Buffy, a huge plotline right there. Spike mocks the geeks but isn't he the guy who referred to KITT and Yoda even in season 2? The Geeks have a glitterball in their lair, the same one that Andrew's brother used to train his hellhounds? Dawn refers to a talking cat on TV, Sabrina;TTW?
So, Buffy and Spike? My personal opinion on this is not that Buffy loves Spike but that she needs someone, anyone after her ordeal of being ripped out of heaven (to quote Justine on Angel 'better to feel something than feel nothing"). Unfortunately neither Willow or Xander is available, Angel has his curse, Riley's unreachable, Giles is out of picture and Dawn is out of the question unless you're into some pretty damn extreme Summers/slash (which in fairness a LOT of people are to judge by the plethora of Buffy/Charmed/Gilmore Girls fanfiction in that fetish genre) so Spike fits the bill. That's not to say she doesn't develop feelings for him later but even Spike here comments that he's the only one 'here for her'.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, one for the Spuffers and no mistake, unfortunately I'm not one

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I'm one who thinks Buffy was really and truly in love with Spike by season 7, but not yet. There's a lot of pain and self-loathing tied up in her affair with Spike, and it's only just started here. I was so happy to get to see a Spuffy physical relationship the first time I watched that I barely thought about anything else I think. My 2nd time through, it was harder to watch, both because of her treatment of him and her feelings towards herself at that time. I'm not sure you can really love someone else (anyone else) when you hate yourself so much. We see all season how she cuts off her friends, Dawn, Giles, and the only person she lets close is someone she's always hated.

 

[white avenger]

SMASHED


Once he thinks his chip is not working he goes out to slaughter the first pretty girl he can find but seems to need to psych himself up to do so.

This is something similar to what Spike does in Season 5 of "Angel" when he becomes solid again, once again with the first available girl that he sees, but with something other than slaughter on his mind. Both times end up with pain for Spike.

I think that both cases are as much just Spike wanting to try out the return of a previously dormant ability than anything else.

And in defense of Spike hitting Buffy, just remember, she hit him first. Also, did you notice that the scene started out as almost identical to the scene where she hits Angel in "Sanctuary?" She slugs Angel, he hits her back, more by reflex than any real malice, and she's absolutely shocked that he would do such a thing. Same thing with Spike in "Smashed," only Spike doesn't apologize, and the fight is on.

Actually, I've always been sort of confused by this scene. Buffy and Spike were FRIENDS up until that episode. She came to him to escape the pain and harshness of her post Heaven existence, and he actually seemed to want to do everything within his power to help her. Then, suddenly, they're dismantling a house together.

Maybe that (the fight, not the sex) was in a way actually therapudic for Buffy. For the first time since returning from the grave, she had someone with whom she could vent all of her pent up anger and frustration, and, just as importantly, someone who was actually pretty close to her in fighting skills and had his own set of frustrations and anger to work out. I think that it might have been a better scene if the two of them had just fought to the point of utter exhaustion, neither being able to gain enough advantage over the other to achieve an actual win, and just collapsed into each other's arms and slept for the rest of the night. That way, the sex, when it eventually did happen (and we all KNOW that it was going to happen) could have been under much less destructive and much more friendly circumstances.

Of course, if it played out that way, the whole self destructive, degrading, sex with the soulless blood sucking fiend thing wouldn't have happened, and that's the only way that the Bangel community can reconsile Buffy having sex with Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is something similar to what Spike does in Season 5 of "Angel" when he becomes solid again, once again with the first available girl that he sees, but with something other than slaughter on his mind. Both times end up with pain for Spike.

Great point. I never thought of it that way. Spike functions with his body, not his brain, as he so eloquently pointed out to Buffy in 'Touched.' With Harmony, he just wanted to 'test' his body out, and she just happened to be there, as terrible as it sounds. Plus, he knew he could charm her into it.
With Buffy, he had just realized for the first time that he could hit her again, despite the existence of the chip. That's what initiated their fight, despite them being friends at that point. I think there was a lot of anger there. Buffy was angry at him for loving her, and he was angry at her for not believing him.

I think that both cases are as much just Spike wanting to try out the return of a previously dormant ability than anything else.

Agreed. Spike is a very physical person. He knew he wasn't really hurting Buffy when they fought in 'Smashed'. For him, it was just a "friendly" little fight they were having. He was absolutely shocked when she kissed him, he never saw that coming at all.

And in defense of Spike hitting Buffy, just remember, she hit him first. Also, did you notice that the scene started out as almost identical to the scene where she hits Angel in "Sanctuary?" She slugs Angel, he hits her back, more by reflex than any real malice, and she's absolutely shocked that he would do such a thing. Same thing with Spike in "Smashed," only Spike doesn't apologize, and the fight is on.

Great point. It's been a while since I've seen 'Sanctuary.' Also reminds me of the scene in 'Amends', when Angel hits Buffy on the cliff when he's trying to off himself.

Actually, I've always been sort of confused by this scene. Buffy and Spike were FRIENDS up until that episode. She came to him to escape the pain and harshness of her post Heaven existence, and he actually seemed to want to do everything within his power to help her. Then, suddenly, they're dismantling a house together.

Actually, 'Smashed' is a pretty terrible episode all-around. The writing, as you say, is lazy at best. Things don't "fit."

I can't remember why Spike punches her in the first place, actually - was it because she was trying to stop him from doing something?

Maybe that (the fight, not the sex) was in a way actually therapudic for Buffy. For the first time since returning from the grave, she had someone with whom she could vent all of her pent up anger and frustration, and, just as importantly, someone who was actually pretty close to her in fighting skills and had his own set of frustrations and anger to work out. I think that it might have been a better scene if the two of them had just fought to the point of utter exhaustion, neither being able to gain enough advantage over the other to achieve an actual win, and just collapsed into each other's arms and slept for the rest of the night. That way, the sex, when it eventually did happen (and we all KNOW that it was going to happen) could have been under much less destructive and much more friendly circumstances.

Yeah, I think the whole fight for the most part, for both, was about releasing all the pent-up anger they had for each other. I don't think Buffy came into that fight thinking about how it could end. In other words, it's not like she planned on sexually assaulting him. Somewhere along the line, when they were fighting, she realized the fact that he could hurt her turned her on, and well - the rest is history. Sometimes things reveal themselves in the worst possible situations.

Of course, if it played out that way, the whole self destructive, degrading, sex with the soulless blood sucking fiend thing wouldn't have happened, and that's the only way that the Bangel community can reconsile Buffy having sex with Spike.

True. Very true.

Spike; good or bad?
Spike thinks he should be able to feast in muggers. He says he's at the museum out of compassion for the guard but he's surely lying, just an excuse to meet Buffy. Once he thinks his chip is not working he goes out to slaughter the first pretty girl he can find but seems to need to psych himself up to do so.

At this point, it's debatable if Spike is "good" or not, I agree. He's still a demon, still a soul less vampire. He does exhibit human characteristics, but lacks empathy and a conscience, so it's hard to say if he is truly good. He still has this blood lust. In this specific instance, he is only doing what he thinks he should be doing, but deep down he knows its wrong, that's why he was to psych himself up to do it.

So, Buffy and Spike? My personal opinion on this is not that Buffy loves Spike but that she needs someone, anyone after her ordeal of being ripped out of heaven (to quote Justine on Angel 'better to feel something than feel nothing"). Unfortunately neither Willow or Xander is available, Angel has his curse, Riley's unreachable, Giles is out of picture and Dawn is out of the question unless you're into some pretty damn extreme Summers/slash (which in fairness a LOT of people are to judge by the plethora of Buffy/Charmed/Gilmore Girls fanfiction in that fetish genre) so Spike fits the bill. That's not to say she doesn't develop feelings for him later but even Spike here comments that he's the only one 'here for her'.

No, I don't believe Buffy loves him at this point. She develops those feelings much later. At this point in their relationship, she simply wants him physically.

Marks out of 10; 7/10, one for the Spuffers and no mistake, unfortunately I'm not one

Believe it or not, most Spuffies don't like this episode. Just because Spike and Buffy are getting it on doesn't mean we automatically give the episode a 10/10 😉

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

We'll just get the freezeray outta her, classic. I love the 3 ep arc of Smashed Wrecked and Gone. All great. 7.5/10.

 

[Kana]

This is something similar to what Spike does in Season 5 of "Angel" when he becomes solid again, once again with the first available girl that he sees, but with something other than slaughter on his mind. Both times end up with pain for Spike.

I agree with Saturn in that his behaviour is ambiguous. The difference between the scenes is the moral implications. His scene in the alley may have been a test but can we take it for granted that if he chip wasn't functioning everything would have been fine and dandy? That's what keeps us hopping about the guy, he's a moral quagmire.

And in defense of Spike hitting Buffy, just remember, she hit him first. Also, did you notice that the scene started out as almost identical to the scene where she hits Angel in "Sanctuary?" She slugs Angel, he hits her back, more by reflex than any real malice, and she's absolutely shocked that he would do such a thing. Same thing with Spike in "Smashed," only Spike doesn't apologize, and the fight is on.

Yeah I don't compare the two scenes at all, mainly due to the context being very different. Angel was merely defending himself against a stronger opponent, but with Spike and Buffy things are a little more...interesting....lol.

I'm not bothered by Spike actually hitting Buffy in the first instance but it's what happens before the scene where the house literally falls down.

Actually, I've always been sort of confused by this scene. Buffy and Spike were FRIENDS up until that episode. She came to him to escape the pain and harshness of her post Heaven existence, and he actually seemed to want to do everything within his power to help her. Then, suddenly, they're dismantling a house together.

I've always been confused about the nature of their relationship up until that point. I couldn't decide whether he wanted to kill her or well, something else lol.

When she opens up to him, his feeling special is muted by the apparent realization that she's using him: Her confessions are somehow less real because he's a soulless vampire therefore not a real person. "A whisper in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real" So his frustration doesn't come ex nihilo. Her behaviour beguils him and torments him at the same time. He wants to be close to her but she's holding back.

All of these spell trouble for sorting out his sense of identity. One minute he loves her and saves her, the next he wants to think of himself as the big bad.

As for the ep? It's not my favourite in Season 6 but I like it and liked it muchly when I first saw it. Overall, I love the thematics of this season.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

Spike only thinks he wants to kill the alley girl, just like he thought he wanted to be with Dru again in crushed. But when it comes down to it he knows thats not what he wanted. He was just trying to play his role, to be what Buffy thought he was.

 

[ubi4soft]

Is it me or the title of this thread is patronizing? As for the OP not being a "Spuffer", unfortunately your not objective either.

There's no reference to Willow's actions in this episode, "Tara left me for not good reason" or her disrespect for the people in the Bronze, considering that Smashed parallels Buffy and Willow downfalls.

 

[white avenger]

SMASHED


So, Buffy and Spike? My personal opinion on this is not that Buffy loves Spike but that she needs someone, anyone after her ordeal of being ripped out of heaven (to quote Justine on Angel 'better to feel something than feel nothing"). Unfortunately neither Willow or Xander is available, Angel has his curse, Riley's unreachable, Giles is out of picture and Dawn is out of the question unless you're into some pretty damn extreme Summers/slash (which in fairness a LOT of people are to judge by the plethora of Buffy/Charmed/Gilmore Girls fanfiction in that fetish genre) so Spike fits the bill. That's not to say she doesn't develop feelings for him later but even Spike here comments that he's the only one 'here for her'.
Marks out of 10; 7/10, one for the Spuffers and no mistake, unfortunately I'm not one

And another point here. With the possible exception of Angel, and even he is, in my opinion, a bit iffy, Spike is the only person that she ever knew who would have been able to survive being the focal point of her anger and frustration. In the entire seven years...well, more accurately, I guess, Season 2 through Season 4, since Spike got the chip after that and they never actually fought again except in "Smashed"...Spike was the only opponent who Buffy ever faced who she did not eventually beat. Both Glory and Caleb were stronger than her, but she did, eventually, beat them both. She beat Angelus. She beat Adam. She beat every Big Bad who she ever came up against, with one significant exception: Spike. Whether intentionally or just by coincidence, Buffy and Spike never fought to a conclusive, by which I mean in the principal of Thunderdome, "Two men enter, only one man leaves," manner.

Imagine Buffy taking out her frustrations on Giles, Xander, or Riley. Neither of them would have survived long past Buffy's first punch. When Spike told Buffy that he was the only one there for her, his statement meant much more than just that he was the only one with whom she could have sex, though as that was depicted, I doubt whether Riley would've lasted very long in that department either.

 

[saturn5]

This is something similar to what Spike does in Season 5 of "Angel" when he becomes solid again, once again with the first available girl that he sees, but with something other than slaughter on his mind. Both times end up with pain for Spike.

I think that both cases are as much just Spike wanting to try out the return of a previously dormant ability than anything else.

And in defense of Spike hitting Buffy, just remember, she hit him first. Also, did you notice that the scene started out as almost identical to the scene where she hits Angel in "Sanctuary?" She slugs Angel, he hits her back, more by reflex than any real malice, and she's absolutely shocked that he would do such a thing. Same thing with Spike in "Smashed," only Spike doesn't apologize, and the fight is on.

Actually, I've always been sort of confused by this scene. Buffy and Spike were FRIENDS up until that episode. She came to him to escape the pain and harshness of her post Heaven existence, and he actually seemed to want to do everything within his power to help her. Then, suddenly, they're dismantling a house together.

Maybe that (the fight, not the sex) was in a way actually therapudic for Buffy. For the first time since returning from the grave, she had someone with whom she could vent all of her pent up anger and frustration, and, just as importantly, someone who was actually pretty close to her in fighting skills and had his own set of frustrations and anger to work out. I think that it might have been a better scene if the two of them had just fought to the point of utter exhaustion, neither being able to gain enough advantage over the other to achieve an actual win, and just collapsed into each other's arms and slept for the rest of the night. That way, the sex, when it eventually did happen (and we all KNOW that it was going to happen) could have been under much less destructive and much more friendly circumstances.

Of course, if it played out that way, the whole self destructive, degrading, sex with the soulless blood sucking fiend thing wouldn't have happened, and that's the only way that the Bangel community can reconsile Buffy having sex with Spike.

I have no problem whatsoever with Spike jumping on Harmony as soon as he's flesh once more. To be incorporeal for so long of course the first thing you'd want to do is know the love of a woman again (or at least a female vamp) probably followed by a cheeseburger. I've more a problem with her agreeing to it considering how badly he's treated her in the past (you just want to slap her and say "Have some dignity girl!"). Of course there's also the subtext of Spike's jealousy of Angel and how he's got Spike's former squeeze working for him. Bedding Harmony (or desking her?)might be his little bit of payback.
Which is ENTIRELY different to Spike going to kill this poor girl in the alley, one thing to have consensual sex with your formal tumble, another to take the life of some poor girl just as a snack
Spike is evil, his love for Buffy redeems him but it's a gradual process and he's not entirely good again until season 7

 

[Kitten Poker]

There's no reference to Willow's actions in this episode, "Tara left me for not good reason" or her disrespect for the people in the Bronze, considering that Smashed parallels Buffy and Willow downfalls.

Yes I think this episode is a very interesting one for Willow, especially the point where she and Amy get bored of everything they've done at The Bronze and just decide to change it back and go home. To me, that's Willow acknowledging that "tricks" like she plays at the Bronze aren't satisfying. They just don't so it for her any more, she wants something deeper and naughtier.

As for Spuffy, I'm a Spuffyist (Spuffyphile? Spuffyator?) but this episode is no great shakes for me, no pun intended. (Well, OK, it was...)
They have sex for the first time but.... so what? It's a physical release of frustration, the fighting and sex to me seem just that. Almost interchangeable.

Does it sound odd for me to say I don't think it changes their relationship yet? I really feel that. They're still much how they were after it - Buffy saying "yeah but it doesn't mean I like you, you disgust me!" and Spike saying "When are you going to notice I love you, you daft cow, by the way wasn't it GOOD for you baby?" Nothing really changes, I don't feel it's a pivotal point in their relationship, there's no change in their feelings towards each other and no sense of changed emotions there.

Wow, that sex after such a build up was disappointing 😉

 

[white avenger]

.
Which is ENTIRELY different to Spike going to kill this poor girl in the alley, one thing to have consensual sex with your formal tumble, another to take the life of some poor girl just as a snack
Spike is evil, his love for Buffy redeems him but it's a gradual process and he's not entirely good again until season 7[/QUOTE]

Spike in the alley with the girl wasn't just to convince himself that he was once more the Big Bad, but that was still a major factor in his actions. Evil, certainly, or at least his intentions were, since the chip prevented him actually doing anything. In that sense, it is exactly the same thing as what he attempted later with Harmony. I'm not trying to defend Spike's desire to resume killing again, only pointing out that it had a bit more purpose than to enjoy his first happy meal on legs in quite awhile.

 

[saturn5]

I have no problem whatsoever with Spike jumping on Harmony as soon as he's flesh once more. To be incorporeal for so long of course the first thing you'd want to do is know the love of a woman again (or at least a female vamp) probably followed by a cheeseburger. I've more a problem with her agreeing to it considering how badly he's treated her in the past (you just want to slap her and say "Have some dignity girl!"). Of course there's also the subtext of Spike's jealousy of Angel and how he's got Spike's former squeeze working for him. Bedding Harmony (or desking her?)might be his little bit of payback.
Which is ENTIRELY different to Spike going to kill this poor girl in the alley, one thing to have consensual sex with your formal tumble, another to take the life of some poor girl just as a snack
Spike is evil, his love for Buffy redeems him but it's a gradual process and he's not entirely good again until season 7

I'm sure a girl as beautiful as Harmony could have had any number of guys/girls since Disharmony. AND we've no idea what she and CC got up to after Willow's phonecall.
And i think Spuffer is the accepted term?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Don't like the episode that much, my least favourite episode after Dead Things, I think.

But The Trio was funny 🙂

 

[Kitten Poker]

Spike in the alley with the girl wasn't just to convince himself that he was once more the Big Bad, but that was still a major factor in his actions. Evil, certainly, or at least his intentions were, since the chip prevented him actually doing anything.

You know what? In my mind, vampires can be divided into two camps. To a vamp (obviously), sucking someone's blood out (and killing them in the process) isn't inherently an evil thing to do. It's just food. They see people as... I dunno, farm animals? In order to have a tasty burger, you unfortunately have to kill the cow (thus, does Angel and Spike drinking pig's blood have some kind of "vegetarian" analogy? Hmm). We're "happy meals on legs" as Spike says.

BUT a large amount of vampires in the Buffyverse also want to open the Hellmouth so the demons can come out and play again and they can be higher up the pecking order. THIS is the evil part to me, not the animal instinct that they need to eat to survive. SO, did Spike revel in the harm he was trying to cause the young woman, or was he just like a man seeking a drink of water in the desert? Personally I think the latter. It's like surviving on Rice Krispies for two years then having the prospect of a steak dinner.

I think he's probably more good than bad at this point but it's about a 60/40 ratio 🙂

A little more on the Spuffy relationship (because I'm a sad case and I was thinking about it yesterday evening). Mostly in TV we're still expected to believe that a sex scene "means" something, it's shorthand for the characters becoming more intimate, emotionally closer. It's normally used as a symbol for them feeling warm and squidgy towards each other. So why doesn't it do that for me here? Because here, as Pat Benetar would say, "Sex is a Weapon"? They're basically just rubbing their happy bits together because they're both so angry and it seems the best way they can let it out.

There are other scenes in other episodes prior to this that make my feel all warm and squidgy far more because I think they tell us a lot more about where Buffy and Spike are emotionally. Towards the end of season 5 there are two very significant moments. Firstly their first (voluntary) kiss, where "Buffybot" thanks Spike for not giving away Dawn. That's actually a seriously good scene and shows that start of Buffy's change in attitude. Then in The Gift, where they go back to Revello Drive for weapons and Buffy has to re-invite Spike in (She's inviting him to enter her domain, wink wink). Then of course there's the scene in the Gift where Spike is the only person crying at Buffy's death. Of course the others are in shock, they will cry eventually and I'm not trying to lessen their grief in any way but I think it's interesting the way that shot is set up. Spike apart from the others, alone and sobbing, receiving no attention from anyone else. It's kinda foreshadowing, dude....

 

[saturn5]

You know what? In my mind, vampires can be divided into two camps. To a vamp (obviously), sucking someone's blood out (and killing them in the process) isn't inherently an evil thing to do. It's just food. They see people as... I dunno, farm animals? In order to have a tasty burger, you unfortunately have to kill the cow (thus, does Angel and Spike drinking pig's blood have some kind of "vegetarian" analogy? Hmm). We're "happy meals on legs" as Spike says.

BUT a large amount of vampires in the Buffyverse also want to open the Hellmouth so the demons can come out and play again and they can be higher up the pecking order. THIS is the evil part to me, not the animal instinct that they need to eat to survive. SO, did Spike revel in the harm he was trying to cause the young woman, or was he just like a man seeking a drink of water in the desert? Personally I think the latter. It's like surviving on Rice Krispies for two years then having the prospect of a steak dinner.

I think he's probably more good than bad at this point but it's about a 60/40 ratio 🙂

A little more on the Spuffy relationship (because I'm a sad case and I was thinking about it yesterday evening). Mostly in TV we're still expected to believe that a sex scene "means" something, it's shorthand for the characters becoming more intimate, emotionally closer. It's normally used as a symbol for them feeling warm and squidgy towards each other. So why doesn't it do that for me here? Because here, as Pat Benetar would say, "Sex is a Weapon"? They're basically just rubbing their happy bits together because they're both so angry and it seems the best way they can let it out.

There are other scenes in other episodes prior to this that make my feel all warm and squidgy far more because I think they tell us a lot more about where Buffy and Spike are emotionally. Towards the end of season 5 there are two very significant moments. Firstly their first (voluntary) kiss, where "Buffybot" thanks Spike for not giving away Dawn. That's actually a seriously good scene and shows that start of Buffy's change in attitude. Then in The Gift, where they go back to Revello Drive for weapons and Buffy has to re-invite Spike in (She's inviting him to enter her domain, wink wink). Then of course there's the scene in the Gift where Spike is the only person crying at Buffy's death. Of course the others are in shock, they will cry eventually and I'm not trying to lessen their grief in any way but I think it's interesting the way that shot is set up. Spike apart from the others, alone and sobbing, receiving no attention from anyone else. It's kinda foreshadowing, dude....

I don't buy that, killing even for food is inherently evil. What's more he's not doing it to survive, he can live on pigs blood just like Angel, he's evil, he places no value on human life. Some vamps are more evil than others but unless they get their souls back they're dammed plain and simple. Spike is redeemed by his love for Buffy but until he get's his soul back his heart is as black as coal.
And I have no problem with the Spuffers, make fun of the Bangelers just as much

 

[Kitten Poker]

And I have no problem with the Spuffers, make fun of the Bangelers just as much

I have no desire to, I gots no problem with Buffy and Angel at all. The relationships serve different purposes at different times 🙂 I like coffee AND tea but I like tea best, that's all 😉

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Humans kill cows for food. Is that evil? Lions kill antelopes for food. Evil? Vampires aren't human. It's a stronger species feeding on a weaker one. Food chain.

 

[Kana]

Humans kill cows for food. Is that evil? Lions kill antelopes for food. Evil? Vampires aren't human. It's a stronger species feeding on a weaker one. Food chain.

As Ubisoft said, it's more complicated. While vampires are a different species they have more in common psychologically than we do with cows.

SoullessSpike was once described as amoral but this would be more apt a description for a lion. Spike understands the human concepts of right and wrong and on many occasions he states that is evil, i.e. immoral. While he didn't think about the nature of evil that much, he certainly seemed at home with 'doing the wrong thing' for 100 years or so.

Now if we take the position that vampires do what vampires, where does this leave Season 6 Spike? Or Spuffy for that matter? I'd answer that question myself but 'Glee' is on...

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I don't really think killing humans is okay. Just playing devil's advocate really. But when human blood is their natural food source, it is hard to judge it too harshly. I mean, they can live off of rats obviously but I could live without chicken too. lol