Buffy ep by ep; TOUCHED-sex and slitting throats

[TheVoid68]

How is intelligence forcibly obtained from an insider and worse reason than what basically amounted to a hunch?

And that's not even the point - the problem with Buffy's plan in Empty Places is that it was the exact same plan that had already failed once. At least Faith's plan was a new one, one that hadn't already been shown to be a bad plan.

 

[Kana]

How is intelligence forcibly obtained from an insider and worse reason than what basically amounted to a hunch?

And that's not even the point - the problem with Buffy's plan in Empty Places is that it was the exact same plan that had already failed once. At least Faith's plan was a new one, one that hadn't already been shown to be a bad plan.

Totally agree with this and this has nothing to do with Faith favouritism. Faith's plan was logical but she happened to be wrong. Buffy 'happened' to be right but that doesn't mean leading her friends to vineyard without any proof is a good plan.

I'm still in the camp that Buffy was under a lot of pressure and wasn't always thinking clearly because of it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think Buffy was seeing only the future, not the present. She was like, "okay some will die. But I have a mission, and that's what counts. No matter how many will die, we'll win". Is that a good leader, I don't know. But she had a goal and wanted to achive it, no matter what it takes, and how many lives it takes. She got so used to winning. But she wasn't sure she would win at first. When she was lying in bed with Spike, full awake, she couldn't sleep because she didn't really believe she'd win. Then after the First is gone, she realizes she will win. That's when she saw not only the future - that they will win, but also the present - it's going to be a good win. Even though some died in the fight of "Chosen", she might have made the right decision, at last. She's gained trust in herself and others. So I think that's an important part in being a leader. When she wanted to get back to the vineyard, her plan didn't include the present, only the future-only the goal. So they couldn't trust her. Then after she started seeing the big picture-that's when you can trust the leader.
That's how I see it.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think Buffy was seeing only the future, not the present. She was like, "okay some will die. But I have a mission, and that's what counts. No matter how many will die, we'll win". Is that a good leader, I don't know. But she had a goal and wanted to achive it, no matter what it takes, and how many lives it takes. She got so used to winning. But she wasn't sure she would win at first. When she was lying in bed with Spike, full awake, she couldn't sleep because she didn't really believe she'd win. Then after the First is gone, she realizes she will win. That's when she saw not only the future - that they will win, but also the present - it's going to be a good win. Even though some died in the fight of "Chosen", she might have made the right decision, at last. She's gained trust in herself and others. So I think that's an important part in being a leader. When she wanted to get back to the vineyard, her plan didn't include the present, only the future-only the goal. So they couldn't trust her. Then after she started seeing the big picture-that's when you can trust the leader.
That's how I see it.

This makes the most sense to me. I still think it's stupid and this is a bit of an "excuse" but I think I can sorta live with this.

 

[saturn5]

I think both Buffy and Faith's plans had flaws but they're probably both the best they could do under impossible circumstances. Let's not judge them too harshly, all the scoobs screw up and are forgiven at one time or another.

Yeah, the First does seem to tell the truth in it's own way, especially if you believe Joyce is The First

 

[Nikkolas]

Not my fav. But I just love how The Mayor/First said that Faith wants Buffy to accept her, to love her. 😀

Best part of the episode.

Another good part is Spike going off on the Scoobies. Not often I agree with him but when he's right, he says it in a very forthright manner.

SPIKE
Oh, yeah. You all decided. (chuckles) You sad, sad, ungrateful traitors. Who do you think you are?
....
SPIKE
She has saved your lives again and again. She's died for you. And this is how you thank-

William is pretty much spot on.

Hitting Faith was wrong though. She was a victim in this. A victim of those worthless morons we call the Potentials.

I loved her "I'm not your friend" talk to th Potentials though. You can see those little idiots thought they could get away with anything now cool Aunt Faith was in charge. But Faith matured a lot and told the little brats to shut up.

I was impressed with how much she's grown as a character.

But she still just wants Buffy to love her... *dreamy sigh*

 

[Icarium]

Since Spike has no idea what exactly has happened, he is only a spot on if you believe that Buffy has a divine right to be, well, right in any situation. Considering that Spike himself has disagreed with her plenty of times, to me his speech comes across as stupid and hypocritical and as a very shallow attempt to establish him as the only one who cares for Buffy.

 

[Nikkolas]

Well of course it's shallow. it's Season 7.

It doesn't make it any less true however. He's saying what I was saying as I watched that crapfest of an episode called Empty Places.

 

[VisionGirl]

1st things first: first lesbian sex scene ever on network TV. I know it's Killow, but still.

Secondly, remember that another man first told Buffy that she's a "hell of a woman", and it wasn't Angel either. 😉

I loved the Bringer talking through Andrew, very unexpected. Did former Fray readers recognize the Scythe when this episode first appeared? Oh, Spuffies are gonna hate me for this, but I love Angel's entrance! 🙂

Favorite quotes:
Buffy: I don't want to be the one.
Spike: Well I don't want to be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear.

Anya: We're all on death's door repeatedly ringing the doorbell like maniacal Girl Scouts trying to make quota!

Just before Willow agrees to have sex with Kennedy, she tells her that she worries that she might lose control and go dark. In "Time of Your Life" in Season 8, there is another scene in which Willow worries about the confluence of sex and magic, and its possible effects on their relationship. Do you think this is a coincidence, or does this Season 8 scene intentionally call back to the scene in "Touched"? If so, what do you think both scenes (individually and/or combined) tell us about the relationship between Willow and Kennedy? I would think that Willow is in a better frame of mind in Season 8, so she wouldn't be worried that Kennedy would be reluctant to have sex with her for the greater good. That, and I would think that their relationship would be stronger. But I don't really think that it is that much stronger, and I wonder if it will ever be as strong as that between Willow and Tara (or, if we're talking love in general, between Willow and Oz). Willow doesn't seem comfortable having sex with Kennedy in both Seasons 7 and 8, but for different reasons. Are both reasons ultimately tied back to Tara, or is it something else?

P.S. If the Willow one-shot provides any insight to the Willow-Kennedy relationship, please do not specifically tell me what that insight is, or use spoiler tags :smile3:.

I definitely think that the allusion to season 7 is there, especially with the backstory of events that happened btwn s7 & 8 (we only get very small bits & pieces of that). I really sense an uneasiness in that relationship. Tara grounded Willow. & even though she had her magic addiction that separated them in s6, I think that they would've been OK after they reconciled if Willow hadn't died. I'm not sure if it's because Kennedy is a Slayer, so danger is a part of her. Yes, Tara had power, but she would've probably been content to not use it for lethal means. All I know is that Willow keeps a lot from Kennedy in s8. Maybe it's not so much about Kennedy, but more about how Willow develops post-Chosen.

 

[zobothehobo]

VisionGirl's favorite line reminded me...
I was just watching Earshot and when Buffy's talking to Jonathan she's telling him that sometimes her life really sucks and he says "Oh right. 'Cause the burden of being beautiful and athletic, that's a crippler." I wonder if it was intentional that Jonathan's line in Earshot so closely resembles Spike's line here in Touched.

 

[VisionGirl]

Made a mistake in my post-Angel doesn't come in until the end of End of Days of course.

 

[A Flawed Fashion]

This is not my favorite episode of the series, but there are parts I like. The first appearing to Faith and getting into her skin like that and the montage of all the couples together were highlights of the episode. When everything was falling apart, they all turned to someone and let themselves go.

 

[Willow My Love]

In the death of recurring characters, shouldn't Warren be listed? He was a recurring character, and he died.

 

[Brandonxx93]

I think it was insane when Dawn kicked Buffy out of the house and everyone agreed. No one stood up for her and told her to stay. It was just so random and ridiculous. Yes Buffy made a mistake but no way in hell was it that bad to get kicked out.

But I do agree with everyone else about not going back to fight.

 

[Tina3]

I think I understand Spike's reaction in this episode and it isn't just because he loves Buffy unconditionally, even though many will disagree with that. I truly believe that Spike's belief in Buffy has much more to do with how she has proven herself to him as The Slayer and the battles that have already happened that she's won in the past. He doesn't need to know what the disagreement is about to know that Buffy was most likely correct in her assumptions that got her removed from her own house. Buffy went out of her way to allow her house to be command central, and jammed packed with potentials, without any thought to her own comfort. Again, she is putting her own needs aside, in his opinion, which isn't wrong.

Spike hitting Faith, well, she is the only one he could hit and not really hurt that much. On top of the fact that Faith has tried to take over Buffy's life in the past and her showing up and Buffy being tossed aside so easily would of course make him jump to the conclusion that it somehow had to do with her. Again, he wasn't wrong. Nobody would have kicked Buffy out if they didn't have Faith there as a back-up would they? The whole thing was that Buffy wasn't the ONLY Slayer, they also had Faith, so why should she be the one to be the automatic leader? That was the whole basis of the argument that got her kicked out. Faith has never been truly challenged as the Slayer when it came to an apocalypse and for any of the Scoobies, but especially Dawn, to kick Buffy out of their safe house with Ubervamps and Caleb out there gunning for her was ridiculous to the extreme. If anything, Faith should have taken Buffy aside before it got that far and talked it out with her Slayer-to-Slayer and come up with a plan. For Faith to allow Dawn, or anyone, to kick Buffy out was just bad form and I think that is where Spike was going with it. As a Slayer, Faith should have backed Buffy as well and not allowed it to happen, and that is what angered him more than anything. He couldn't hit any of the Scoobies, but he could hit Faith and show her how terribly wrong she was to desert her sister Slayer the way he felt she did.

Yes Buffy's plan of attack wouldn't have worked as she would again have to worry about Caleb going after the others, but if only Faith and Buffy went or waited for Spike to get back and then they all go, it would have worked. Nobody was communicating and just decided that instead of talking it out privately to come up with a plan that would work, they just decided to toss her out like yesterday's garbage and follow a Slayer that had never done more than normal patrols. The only apocalypse that Faith was ever really involved in was for the other side (the Mayor), so she literally had less experience than the Scoobies did.

I don't want people to think I don't like Faith. I actually LOVE Faith, but she had never been tested or proved herself as being THE SLAYER when it came down to actually saving the World. That is why I have a problem with this episode. This was never like any other apocalypse they had ever faced before, as this was an enemy they couldn't even touch and was actually brought on by the Scoobies themselves (for resurrecting Buffy in the first place) and they are putting all their trust into someone that has done more for the evil side than the good side and throwing Buffy out to the wolves. I'm truly sorry but this is not the time to get rid of the person that has saved the world multiple times and gone with the rogue, as much as I might love her.

 

[PassionBecoming]

Indeed, the post above is awesome. (I don't know how to comment on a specific post...)