Buffy & Faith Through Socrates' eyes

Willow Rosenberg

Willow Rosenberg

I might be just like you!
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Messages
3,163
Age
55
Location
Staffs, UK
I had a long conversation with my philosophy professor last semester about Buffy & Faith as related to Socrates' beliefs.

Buffy has real power as a slayer. "Socrates argues that true power comes with the control and order of one's body and soul—the discipline to act justly, live virtuously, and not need anything. This treatment of power becomes all the more significant in light of the events surrounding Socrates's actual trial and death. The philosopher was accused of corrupting through false instruction and treason, and convicted and executed because of his refusal to admit having acted wrongly."

Faith on the other hand is a "leaky-jar". She has no real power because she lives for pleasure. "Those who repeatedly satisfy their desires do not possess real power because this gratification further fuels rather than extinguishes the appetites. A person capable of always satisfying desire is in constant need of more satisfaction, and as such possesses no true power."

Faith was also rooted in evil according to Socrates theories as he believes "Evil takes root in wrongful acts—those which by nature involve shame and/or pain." Socrates believes that it is worse to do wrong to someone else, than to have wrong done to you. "He goes on further to declare it worse still to inflict wrong without being punished, since retribution for an evil act at least helps to right the wrong." So Faith's turnaround in S4-S7 and her stint in Jail have really done much good in that her punishment was her first step in righting her wrongs. Same thing goes for Angel, although whether or not he is really to blame for the sins of Angelus is up for debate.
 
J
Jill_Valentine
Quite a theory. I'll have to think about that...
Furturemrfaith said:
there are classes at universities on the philoshopy of Buffyverse
Click to expand...

Yeah my school had one on the Sopranos last year. My professor wrote an article in the book "Sopranos and Philosophy". I have the Buffy one of that series...its very interesting. They also make a Simpsons one as I've seen.
 
There are tons of Buffy/philosephy books out there. I just got What Would Buffy Do?, and its pretty good.



BTW, where does Kendra fit into your theory?
 
Didn't talk about Kendra really...but I would imagine she would imagine she would fit in to where Buffy would...she gave of herself selflessly.
 
Kinda OT:

Does anyone know which schools teach Buffy related courses, because I'm going to college next year and that could totally be somewhere that I might wanna check out.

And a Buffy course? Easy A!
 
Right. I just got around to reading Buffy and Philosophy, and there's a similarly convincing argument in it, which I'm gonna outline...

Socrates asked whether it was better to be Unjust and thought righteous, or Just and thought to be a criminal. The rather icky elaboration is: The Unjust person gets the run of the city. They get money, power and everybody thinks they rock. The Just person is thought to be guilty, and hated accordingly. They're beaten, have their eyes burned out, and then they're tortured to death in a manner sufficiently gloopy to give one nightmares.

Anyway, Sock reckoned the Just person was ultimately better off, because right until the end, they'd have an inner peace, an equilibrium, that the Unjust person could never get. Because the Unjust person is always racing to satisfy their various appetites, they're always going to be slave to them.

Faith fits the model quite well, and indeed, is the only Buffy character to have been on both sides of it. She arrives in Sunnydale, and Lo, the Scoobies think she rocks. She makes it clear that she has no time to think because she's too busy chasing man-ho's, or a fight, or depending on how you interpret her, Buffy. Because she has no frame of reference (She's never truly had the Just person's peace) she can't imagine it to be superior, until Who Are You?, when she gets to walk a few miles in Buffy's shoes. And feet. And all Buffy's other parts. Wow, really wish I'd thought that sentence through. Anyway, after that she's never the same. Her experience of the world through the Just person's eyes has turned her whole world on it's head. At first, she tries to stifle the increasingly evident internal imbalance by pursuing her various hobbies more fervently than before (Men, Violence and Disco. And some excellent obscure techno-metal mixes) When it becomes clear that's not working she figures she'll commit suicide-by-cop/vampire, because by now her internal balance is all over the place, and she doesn't believe it can be redressed. Then there's Sanctuary, and if you don't know what happens in that episode your damn life is incomplete. Anyway.

So fast forward a few months to Judgement. Faith is bizarrely content in prison grey. Even as she tells Angel that she's taken an unfair beating from the guards, she doesn't seem to regret the decision. By the Socratic arguement, Faith has swapped sides. She's now suffering unjustly, though she's has Just intentions. Fast forward even further to the Angel S4 arc and her arrival at the Hyperion. Cordelia, though she's going through her Evil-Dodgy-Line-Delivery phase, is nonetheless immediately suspicious of her. Last time they met, Faith tried to remove Cordy's left eye with her elbow, so it's understandable. But since we, the viewers, know that Faith is reformed, for all intents and purposes, she has become the falsely accused Just. Hell, Wesley is more dangerous than her, and it wasn't so long ago he was wearing tweed with a clear conscience. And she suffers too. The Beast paints her all over the warehouse, Angel nearly kills her twice, she has to endure Wesleys' bathroom colour scheme, and she has a distressing trip to the set of That 70's Show. All of these things she could have lived without, if she had chosen not aid the Fang Gang. Clearly, she's rather be the suffering Just now. When she heads off to Sunnydale, she gets a similar warm reception, but good old stalwart and true heroine Buffy Summers takes the extra step of beating her repeatedly for her efforts. That's our Buffy. She'd neeeeeever stoop to Willow's level of taking revenge on a defenseless enemy... I digress. Sorry. The point is, no matter what, Faith doesn't again stray from the Just path, because despite the obvious deterrents, she knows for a fact that the alternative is lacking.


So that's that. The arguement shakes a little though. Buffy cannot be used as a control subject for Faith in this instance, because the circumstances that shaped them are too different. Buffy has been conditioned by her family and friends, to a degree, to do right. Though she has suffered for doing good, she's never really gained by straying to the other side. In fact, it's arguable that her friends having all their heads at the ends of their necks is a tangible reward for Buffy. Faith, until she test drives Buffy's body, has never gained from doing good. So while there is grounds for arguing a type of Socratic model solely in Faith's case, Faith and Buffy wander around the concept too much to argue that they reflect it as they reflect each other.
 
C
Cordelia
Have I told you how nice it is to have you on the boards...awesome analysis :D
I've been thinking about this a bit more. Brace yourself.

While I think Faith's arc has some Socratic elements, she doesn't follow his model. Socrates seems to view either condition (Suffering Just/ Successfully Unjust) as clearly divisible. You're one or the other. It's up to you.

Faith, on the other hand, clearly demonstrates that it's possible (Indeed, necessary) to move from one state to the other. When she's a good guy at the start, she's clearly uncomfortable with it. She has that barely suppressed rage so close to the surface. She has nothing tangible to show for her good guy work, nothing at all. She has been cheated (From her POV) of the one thing she was to have to make her special. (The Chosen Other One doesn't sound quite so imposing) So, if she never fell from grace, it's arguable that she would never, ever know any kind of peace, because part of her would always wonder if the other path would provide what Buffy's world had denied her. But the other side, as we've seen, only disrupted her inner balance even more, and whatever she had left, she lost.

So when Faith does come back to the good guy side, it's with all the fervor of a Kamikaze pilot. She's only too delighted to put herself in suicidal situations to prove how devoted a good guy she is. She's gonna be the best good guy ever. She'll take the prison beatings with a smile, because that's how good she is. She'll let an animal like Angelus kill her, because that'll prove it, once and for all, that she just loves all the good guy crap.

Orpheus disabuses her of this notion a little. Angel suffers to be Just, but he's also done some morally dodgy things. He also reminds her that getting herself killed will be running away just as surely as I consider her submission to the police. She's more useful alive, and can do more good. Fine, says Faith, but if I get killed without it being too intentional, that's okay right? Her attitude when she returns to Sunnydale is one of subservience to Buffy, who she should consider her equal rather than her leader. She initially follows Buffys instructions quite contentedly... out of character for our Faith? Maybe. But she could also be argued to still be passively seeking that Martyrs death. She never shows any concern for her own wellbeing in S7, only for the potentials and for her pride. She tells Buffy she's quite happy to be thrown into the hornets nest on the front line. Maybe deep down she's hoping she will lose that fight some day, a sacrifice Buffy and co will have to acknowledge. If she dies because she was doing what she was told, that isn't suicide, right?

But her Idolisation of Buffy as the perfect heroine, the heroine she's always wanted to be, takes another knock. The world didn't stand still for the 8 months or the two years. Buffy is somebody different now. In Season two, Buffy might have believed Giles when he told her that forgiveness can be necessary even if its not deserved. Not anymore. Beginning with Graduation Day Buffy has become a lot less willing to make concessions for other peoples failings. She might consider it a necessary step for a leader to have that take-no-crap attitude, and a long memory... but for Faith to have her icon continue to treat her like crap even when presented with proof of good intent is devastating. There's no perfect hero. After four years Faith finally comes out of her comic book world where characters are defined solely by their allegiances. We know she'd rather be a suffering good guy because we've seen her particular brand of masochism dripping all over Wesleys apartment. But to discover that Buffy won't recognise all the suffering in the world on her part... well... she has to face some hard truths. "Heros" like Buffy can be cruel too. She finally understands that people aren't just Heros and Badguys, or Suffering Just/Successfully Unjust. They're people. Who make crap decisions and good ones, but aren't defined by either forever.

So after much ranting, my point is this: For Faith, she doesn't just slot into one category then move to the other. Rather, both are treated as a necessary step in her development. By the end of the show in S7, she's more content with herself than she might ever have been if she had stayed with the Whitehats to begin with. (Sure, it cost a few lives, but what's a few Extras between friends? 😀 ) She has seen all the shades in the moral spectrum except whiter than white. It doesn't exist. But that's okay. Without the make-believe SuperBuffy to live up to, maybe she's not so bad after all. So she moves from the (Relatively) successful unjust, to the suffering just, to the... normal. No longer trying to be defined by either. She is willing to suffer to do the right thing, but at the end of Chosen, she knows that she can be a good guy without bleeding all the time.
 
It won't let me rep you as of now, but I'll come back for it. Anyhoo..it was a great read and I thorougly enjoyed your point of view. I think you're correct in that Faith is more content with herself after going to the "dark side" than she would have been should she have stayed a semi-scooby. She needed that period of reflection to truly find herself and when we see her again in Angel S4 ans Buffy S7, she seems a more truly together and happy (well happy as one can be in the face of an apocalypse) person 😀
 
It's a really interesting theory. Wouldn't have thought of it at all without this thread. And also, how cool is your philosophy teacher?
 
Jill Valentine said:
And also, how cool is your philosophy teacher?
Click to expand...

She actually wrote one of the essays in "Sopranos & Philosophy" from the same series as the Buffy one. If you like that show, her name is Lisa Cassidy and from what she told us, she wrote about Feminism and Carmela Soprano 😀
If you're interested here's a link to an article about it here.
 
The Sopranos was something I never let myself get into, because the episodes suck me in when I catch them, and I didn't want another obsession. 😀 I'm interested now though.. Darn it Cordelia!
 
I've always wondered was this thread was about and now I've finally read it. I just wanted to say that I find your thoughts and theories very interesting and I have nothing to contribute since I don't know enough about Faith (haven't even watched Angel at all), but it was a great reading, so thanks.
 
Jill_Valentine said:
The Sopranos was something I never let myself get into, because the episodes suck me in when I catch them, and I didn't want another obsession. 😀 I'm interested now though.. Darn it Cordelia!
Click to expand...

Hehe..I didn't get into it myself until last season. I loved Steve Buscemi...he was mad cool...not my fave character..but they killed my fave off so...but I think their stalling on new eps.
 
Cordelia said:
It won't let me rep you as of now, but I'll come back for it. Anyhoo..it was a great read and I thorougly enjoyed your point of view. I think you're correct in that Faith is more content with herself after going to the "dark side" than she would have been should she have stayed a semi-scooby. She needed that period of reflection to truly find herself and when we see her again in Angel S4 ans Buffy S7, she seems a more truly together and happy (well happy as one can be in the face of an apocalypse) person 😀
Click to expand...

Goodness ladies, my cranium is aching now...but, even with my lack of Socratean philosophical acumen, let me say that, I agree that Faith was much more "human" after her "breakdown" and "recovery". A parallel that I'm familiar with is the downward spiral of addiction and the recovery process. This seems to be something ME is good at using as a template for plotlines...like Willow in S6 (sort of...in S7 they stry from orthodox recovery credo by saying Willow can do magic without risking relapse, something that is rejected by most of the addiction/recovery community). The recovery process lends itself to self-examination, something Faith was running from, literally in some cases! Usually this leads to a person who has embraced the reality of the situation and has begun the process of self-change. These folks usually are stronger, more sure of themselves and their roles, and eager to rejoin society in the roles they've embraced as their own. Some are even eager to put themselves in harm's way...by counselling or outreach to practicing alcoholics. Eventually they calm down, and realize they don't have to prove themselves all the time, much like Faith thinks she has to (which you've already pointed out!) I don't disagree with any of what you've said above (what I can understand of it...😉). You make many good points and support them well. The beauty of Buffy and Angel shows when you can see different layers in every aspect of the show...from the mundane of trivia, to the deep subjects you are discussing. Please continue now...I'm done with my crayons on your masterpiece!😉
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom