Buffy+Faith= ?

[doppelgänger2]

Okay, so I've been meaning to start a new Fuffy thread for days now. So here it goes:

What is the state of Buffy and Faith's relationship? Did Faith have real feelings for Buffy or vice versa? Is there anything more to say about this?
(I sure hope so cause I could go on forever).
Are there any new takes on s3 now that we've seen Faith return in s7?

Come on people! Give it to me 😀

 

[Jill_Valentine]

I might be repeating some of what I said in the Sexuality in the Buffyverse thread, or I might have just thought it really hard, I'm not sure anymore but...

I think there is a certain element of attraction there, and quite frankly it's Eliza Dushku, how could there not be? Faith represents a part of Buffy that's been split off and cultured in a Doug Petrie/ Petrie dish pun I haven't quite hammered out yet. She's more like Buffy than Kendra ever was, or ever would have been. So they're the only two people who could ever really be each others' equal. Faith is far more willing to throw her sexuality around than Buffy, but Buffy certainly does flirt back with our friend from Boston. There is insane amounts of Unresolved Sexual Tension flying all over season 3, and I'd have loved to see Joss' directions for that... ("Okay girls, I need you to invade each other's personal space as much as humanly possible without actually groping each other. Remember, Eliza, you're still a minor...")

Honestly, I don't think they ever would have progressed to couple status, not in a million years. For one thing, I get the impression their music tastes are far too incompatible. But... Faith does bring out the wild child in Buffy, so I can't say that if Allan Finch had gone to the cinema or something, nothing whatsoever would have happened.

I'm paraphrasing a rather excellent quote by an IMDB'er (Bonjbrown? ) who's name escapes me, but basically he reckoned that Buffy and Faith's complex relationship is beyond that kind of categorisation. Both girls would like it to be something simple, but it's not. If it was, we could all just point at it and say "Ah, yes, they're clearly in censor-enraging lurve..." but we can't, because every time their relationship almost comes to a resolution, something else gets in the way. But... Faith was right, they aren't supposed to exist together. Their relationship can't really be compared to any prexisting model. Are they sisters? Rivals? Lovers? Two parts of the same person? Like Joss' comments re: Hush, to actually er... come out and say it... eliminates all other possibilites, and everything must be simplified. So, I'm quite impressed by how complicated their relationship in Season 3 was... I just wish it had been better addressed in S7...

I have heard rumours that during S7, when a Faith spin off was still a real possibility, there was a request that Faith's trisexual attitude was toned down, for fear that she'd turn into a sort of biker trash Xena...

 

[doppelgänger2]

Let's see if I can add something to this...

I am also of the opinion that we can thank Eliza for that wonderful little thing they call the attraction between then and not to mention subtext (or lesbyaan subtext, whatever you wanna call it). Though I'm not sure if to call the subtext lesbian, cause there is far more underneath it all than just two girls wanting to jump each others bones.
(I know, I know. This is a family board, and I'll try to behave?)

First we have that Faith kinda being Buffy's evil twin or her worse half. This meaning; Buffy is Faith and Faith is Buffy therefore they are Fuffy.
Faith is everything that Buffy has to fight down. It's clear in such episodes like Bad girls and the wish that Buffy's quote from doppelgangland:
"Different circumstances, that could be me."
actually is true. It's so obvious in bad girls that Buffy's yearning to take a walk on the wild side, but not only that, she wants to walk it with Faith. Faith is kinda like her agitator, pushing her little by little closer to the edge.

Other than the fact that their taste in music is by no means compatible (which I'd like to see som proof of, thank you very much 😀), there are too many things in between them for Faith to show up one day with roses in one hand and a bucket of KFC in the other asking her out on a date.
But it had been very interesting to see what had happened if Finch had gone to the movies with Trick or something. Thank god for fan fiction?

Biker trash Xena? Now THAT is something I'd looove to see 😀

Now that I think about it. It doesn't feel as I managed to add something... DAMN! 🙂

 

[eponinethen]

Ok, I've never been a Fuffy fan but I'm starting to like this, lol.

The thing is the attraction is all about Eliza (as you've mentioned).. She is the interesting one but also the interested one.. Buffy's the one who's drawn to Faith, but Faith would never spend any time with Buffy unless there were a real reason..
About the "real feelings", I think it's possible Faith actually felt something for Buffy. Ok, I really believe she did, all through the show, even in the 7th season although everything's weird then..

Their physical attraction is so obvious but unfortunately it would disappeare in a second if they actually did anything about it..

 

[doppelgänger2]

WAY OT:
(okay, this is only a reminder to myself so I can remember to bring up the issues of Faith looking up to Buffy, something I saw Jill mentioning in one of the threads)

 

[SlayerThe]

I think the only time there is any sort of attraction is when their in slay mode. Look at Bad Girls, there was uber-lesbian vibes coming from it.

It would have been interesting to see some sort of love twist since Eliza oozes sexiness and we know Sarah can be quite the temptress (Cruel Intentions).

And yes, Xena is trashy. Those flips, bad bad bad bad.

 

[eponinethen]

I actually don't think there are any "uber-lesbian vibes" going on, not even lesbians vibes. I think this is something completely different. I don't think any of them could ever admit the attraction, although it's so obvious. The reason why is that Faith can't ever admit to being that emotional (cause I think it is sort of emotional from her side), she would have to show Buffy she had real feelings and she would never do that. Besides from that I don't think Faith would have a problem with it. Buffy on the other hand.. she's the one always treating Faith really bad. I've always thought Buffy was the one being cruel to Faith, never the other way around.. Buffy has the problem with being close to people (physical and emotional), it would take her forever to realize or admit the attraction (and it wouldn't be like Faith to hang around waiting for her)..

 

[SlayerThe]

I actually don't think there are any "uber-lesbian vibes" going on, not even lesbians vibes. I think this is something completely different. I don't think any of them could ever admit the attraction, although it's so obvious. The reason why is that Faith can't ever admit to being that emotional (cause I think it is sort of emotional from her side), she would have to show Buffy she had real feelings and she would never do that. Besides from that I don't think Faith would have a problem with it. Buffy on the other hand.. she's the one always treating Faith really bad. I've always thought Buffy was the one being cruel to Faith, never the other way around.. Buffy has the problem with being close to people (physical and emotional), it would take her forever to realize or admit the attraction (and it wouldn't be like Faith to hang around waiting for her)..

You didn't sense any? Shocked. Isn't this around the time when Joss was deciding which character would be gay and didn't someone talk about an all gay Buffy cast? Even though the former is about Willow or Xander, but could have been considered. And with so much sexual tension these two had, its easy to get these "vibes".

I believe the writers did try to fumble around with this idea. I think it would have gone further, but TV hadn't made that huge jump yet (although it would prove to do so very soon!)

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I've always thought Buffy was the one being cruel to Faith, never the other way around

What about when she tried to sleep with Buffy's boyfriend, chained her up and threatened to torture her, tried to kill Buffy's boyfriend, alligned with the evil force Buffy was fighting, tried to kill Buffy's best friend, switched bodies with Buffy, etc.

I do like Faith and I do believe she earned her redemption and Buffy needed to come to terms with that in season 7, but to say that Faith's always been on the receiving end of the cruelness is just plain mad.

 

[eponinethen]

What about when she tried to sleep with Buffy's boyfriend, chained her up and threatened to torture her, tried to kill Buffy's boyfriend, alligned with the evil force Buffy was fighting, tried to kill Buffy's best friend, switched bodies with Buffy, etc.

I do like Faith and I do believe she earned her redemption and Buffy needed to come to terms with that in season 7, but to say that Faith's always been on the receiving end of the cruelness is just plain mad.

No, I actually think so. I don't mean that Faith hasn't done stupid and cruel things to Buffy. But I always felt like she's the one who cares, cause Buffy is always a big part of Faith's life. I feel sorry for Faith cause Buffy means more to her than she does to Buffy. I think that's why she can be jealous of Buffy and do stuff to her. Buffy is cruel cause she somewhat knows that Faith really cares about her. Buffy is the one with friends and family (more or less), Faith is the one who's alone. Buffy doesn't really need Faith. But when Buffy says something to Faith, she can really hurt her (although Faith would never show how much she cares)..


Slayer,The - I know. I just always thought of this as a Faith/Buffy attraction. More than a "lesbian thing".

 

[doppelgänger2]

eponinethen, you are so very right and that brings us to what I was thinking about.

Faith looking up to Buffy. I saw Jill mentioning it in another thread and I was surprised. Cause I'd never seen it that way before. But thinking about it, it makes so much sense! Maybe Faith hasn't had many friends/rolemodels in life and Buffy might just be one of the people she's gotten closest to. She sees Buffy as this sort of knight in shiny armor who can save her from... something. I mean, why'd she run to SunnyD anyway? Apparently, she was searching for something and I think she found it in Buffy.
BUT, then we have self-absorbed whiney-slayer who is not too pleased with the fact that Faith cruises into town like a fresh breath or air.
Could it be that Buffy's being so cruel to Faith cause she feels this extremely strong attraction towards her but could never ever just let everything go and fall for that sweet sweet temptation? I think so. And why? To quote Faith in Buffy's body "Because it's WRONG."
And I've always thought that Faith's evilness post Bad Girls comes from her being jealous of Buffy, but by being hurt by her also.

 

[Delaneya]

I think Buffy was jealous of Faith cause she couldn't be as free as Faith. She was too responsible to be BAD.

 

[eponinethen]

Well, they're both jealous of eachother. Faith doesn't want to be like Buffy, but she wants to have what Buffy has. Buffy would like to sometimes be like Faith is (we all know that she almost tried for a while but she's too responsible). I've always thought like that too, Faith looking up to Buffy.. She would never admit it, but.. well..
I think we see alot of interesting stuff when they're in eachother's bodies.. When Buffy is in Faith's body she has to understand that Faith's life isn't only fun and parties, she has to understand that Faith feels alone and insecure and all that. Anf Faith in Buffy's body.. she gets a different view on Buffy too, especially after having sex with Riley..
Anyway, I've always wondered what Faith did before she came to Sunnydale. Before Buffy was in Faith's life what was her life about? Ok, we know she dropped out of school, but that doesn't tell us much.. What else do we know? Because after from the point she meats Buffy and her friends, they're all she's got, aren't they..?

 

[doppelgänger2]

Is it canon or fanon that her mother was an alcoholic? Cause I've got the impression that that is canon.
Another impression is that she comes from some kind of white trash part of Boston. That mainly because of the way she acts/dresses etc.
And her mom's dead. That we know from Faith saying "My dead mother hits harder than that" in Faith, Hope and Trick. My guess is that Faith's mom died before she was called. Her watcher became some kind of mother figure and when she was killed Faith kinda lost it. And then it was just one big snow ball effect of it all.

 

[Jill_Valentine]

People tend to think Buffy could never really be like Faith.

Er... The first episode of season 2, anybody...?

Yeah, Faith does idolise Buffy. (See Faith and the Fitzgerald Sister theory for details....) The death of her Watcher shatters Faith's belief in her own abilities completely, and she sort... starts from scratch. She gives up on whoever she was before.

When she gets to Sunnydale, she says she came to meet the famous Buffy. We find out later that she's on the run from Kakistos, but I don't think she was lying about wanting to meet Buffy. She holds Buffy up as the benchmark superheroine. When she first arrives, she emulates Buffy. In Revelations, Faith takes a serious knock. Her thinking seems to be "Buffy wouldn't have fallen for it." (It's a little sadly ironic then that Fred says something similar about Faith. It probably would have made Faith's year to hear somebody else liken her to Supergirl...) so she scraps that plan as a complete failure.

From Revelations on, she gives up trying to be like Buffy, and starts instead trying to make Buffy like her. Either way, her ultimate goal is the same: to be just like Buffy. When she starts trying to craft herself into her own character, she does it by making some terrible choices. But, whether she's conscious of it or not, she's still using Buffy as the template. I don't think it's an accident that Faith is a big comic book fan. To Faith, there is no middle ground: You're Spiderman or you're Venom. A comic, and I love comics, simplifies things. Even in the most morally complex comic book world (X Men springs to mind) things are simpler than real life. For the time it takes to reach the last panel, you get a break from our world, and you get a holiday in somebody elses. Bad guys vs. Good guys. Black and White. She's realised she can't be the sort of heroine Buffy is, so she tries for the complete opposite instead. The Evil Faith persona that she creates is little more than Faith's take on the Anti-Buffy. Even when she's trying to be evil, she's idolising her. Even in a coma, as Doug Petrie sadly remarks, all she thinks about is Buffy. Buffy who stalks her through every single damn dream since she lost consciousness. When she wakes up, Faith is devastated to see that even though she can't imagine life without Buffy, Buffy's perfectly able to move on, even to find a new Nemesis (Albeit a relatively lame one.) But she still considers Buffy to be Buffy, Fabulous Superhero.

It takes until S7 before Faith can finally stand on her own two feet. In particular, the arguement (Faith standing up to Buffy) and the bedroom scene (Seriously, given the subject of this thread, that scene needs another name) have Faith finally coming to terms with the fact that Buffy isn't the icon Faith always thought she was. In one way, it's a really hard thing for Faith to have to face, and it brings her down to earth with a bang. But on the other hand, finding out that Buffy, THE Buffy is not absolutely perfect lets Faith finally start to get over her, and finally realise that maybe she isn't doomed forever just because she's flawed.


Re: Her Alcoholic Mother...

"My mom was too busy enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life..." I think it's from Enemies.

 

[eponinethen]

Ok, I'm starting to really really love Faith.
The sad thing is that both Buffy and Faith consider Buffy to be the "better" one of them. Both Buffy and Faith sort of think that Faith has no chance to become what Buffy is (the real slayer, a good person, a friend).
Faith was never evil, both of them know that too. Just like Jill said, Faith tried to be like Buffy (the good girl) but that didn't work for her, so she finds one person who cares for her, the mayor, of course she does what he wants her to do (who wouldn't in that situation).. I feel so sorry for Faith when she goes to Angel and thinks she can win him over to her side.. And when she realizes both Buffy and Angel have tricked her into beileving Angel is evil and all that.. Ok back OT, Faith was never evil, that's the point, she doesn't need to "become good again". Willow was evil, and rehabilitated.. (Faith's the one who should be jealous of that, not Amy..) But noone gives Faith a chance.. And she was their friend in the beginning.

 

[doppelgänger2]

I don't know why I can't do that "doppelgänger agrees" thing! It's so sad. But anyway. Jill, your last post was on the verge of beautiful. I'm serious now. Bloody brilliant. As almost always, I agree 😀
I'm specially fond of that comic book reference. I am also a big comic book fan and to think I never thought of that.

Things in Buffyverse are obviously not like things are here in the "real world."
(Sidenote: sometimes Buffyverse becomes the "real world" in my head and that's very confusing)
For example: Willow and Spike are two people who used to be "evil" but successfully seeked redemption in s7 and Buffy received them with open arms. So, why in the world wouldn't Buffy receive the brand new Faith with open arms? I, myself, do not have an answer to this now and would appreciate if someone had.
Thing is, it's strange Buffy can forgive a rude old vamp and not her formar partner in slayage.

What I am thinking now is, could there ever be a reunion of the better kind between these two? I mean, them becoming friends and partners in slayage.

 

[eponinethen]

I don't know why I can't do that "doppelgänger agrees" thing!

You have agreed too much with Jill and you have to agree with someone else before you can agree with her again.. I have that problem too with Jill. (I think a lot of people have.)

Anyway.. Spike was evil for a reason (vampire) and WIllow is Buffy's best friend and she loves her and understands her. Buffy was always sort of suspicious towards Faith, she didn't really trust her from the beginning, and she never respected the way she lives or is or works. I think Buffy acts like she's disappointed with Faith, Faith is supposed to save the world and be all responsible for everything that happens, just like Buffy is. But really, Buffy doesn't want Faith to be that person either, she wouldn't want Faith to be the "real" slayer who everyone needs and looks up to. Buffy doesn't know who she wants Faith to be and Faith doesn't know who wants to be either.. It's all about the thing that they're not supposed to exist together, that's what makes their relationship so complicated, cause they're not supposed to have a relationship at all, they're not supposed to be able to meet eachother.. So I guess Buffy sees Faith as a threat (just like she did when Faith first showed up), although she might not be aware of this. Buffy thinks she's doing the right thing since "Faith was evil"... But Faith never was evil, I don't think so. She always knew what she was doing, she never wanted to be cruel to Buffy, but it's all Buffy's fault (more or less) because of the way she treated or acted towards Faith..

(Ok I don't know if this makes any sense at all, I won't read though it, just tell me if I'm making no sense..)

 

[Jill_Valentine]

😀 All this ranting is paying off...

"So, why in the world wouldn't Buffy receive the brand new Faith with open arms?"

The way I see it is...

(From Consequences)

"Buffy, I'm not gonna "see" anything. I missed the mark last night and I'm sorry about the guy. I really am! But it happens! Anyway, how many people do you think we've saved by now, thousands? And didn't you stop the world from ending? Because in my book, that puts you and me in the plus column."

"We help people! It doesn't mean we can do whatever we want!"

"Why not? The guy I offed was no Gandhi. I mean, we just saw he was mixed up in dirty dealings."

"Maybe, but what if he was coming to us for help?"

"What if he was? You're still not seeing the big picture, B. Something made us different. We're warriors. We're built to kill."

"To kill demons! But it does not mean that we get to pass judgment on people like we're better than everybody else!"

"We are better!"

(Buffy reels in shock)

(From Two to Go)

"Warren's a dead man if she finds him."
"Good."
"Dawn, don't say that."
"Why not? (the others looking at her) I'd do it myself if I could."
"Because you don't really feel that way."
"Yes I do. And you should too. He killed Tara, and he nearly killed you. He needs to pay."
"....he's just as bad as any vampire you've sent to dustville."
"Being a Slayer doesn't give me a license to kill."

(From Graduation Day)

"Buffy, if Angel drains Faith's blood, it'll kill her. "
"Not if she's already dead. "

( From http://www.buffyworld.com/, edited)

Part of Buffy knows, can feel, that what she did to Faith was wrong. She can't think straight around Faith. The girl brings out the worst in her, not just by being a bad influence. She pushes her buttons, this time I mean in a non-sex way. She confuses Buffy, and Buffy tends to react irrationally. When Buffy went off to very Faithishly kill Faith, she judged her. She decided that, in the balance, a) Buffy herself had the right to judge the worth of another human life, and exact the appropriate justice/revenge and b) Faith was incapable of doing enough good (ever) to redress the balance for what she had done. Death is forever, or supposed to be.

Again, the only thing that saved Faith's life was pure, blind chance. Buffy clearly fully intended to kill her, and would have, if their last pre-coma encounter had gone as planned.

"murder

\Mur"der\, v.

1. To kill with premediated malice; to kill (a human being) willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.

2. To destroy; to put an end to."


By arguements that Buffy herself made, humans have a god given right to life. Warren had that right even after murdering Tara, just like Ben did even though he almost helped end the world. For Buffy to accept that Faith is even capable of doing good, much less redeeming herself, is finally properly admitting that Faith is not just a monster, that Faith has a right to live. Just as she had a right to live 4 years before. She doesn't want to face the idea that Faith is a real person. It would be finally admitting that Buffy is not only a Slayer of Demons, she is a willing Murderer of Teenager. For Buffy to accept any kind of decency on Faith's part would be to acknowledge that Buffy tried, and would have succeeded, to commit a brutal murder the night before she graduated.

 

[doppelgänger2]

Ok, I'm starting to really really love Faith.

I forgot to mention that this is a very interesting, not to mention very good, statement. I mean, you've gotta love Faith. She's the reason I started watching BtVS.

😀 All this ranting is paying off...

It must be the bestest feeling 🙂

By arguements that Buffy herself made, humans have a god given right to life. Warren had that right even after murdering Tara, just like Ben did even though he almost helped end the world. For Buffy to accept that Faith is even capable of doing good, much less redeeming herself, is finally properly admitting that Faith is not just a monster, that Faith has a right to live. Just as she had a right to live 4 years before. She doesn't want to face the idea that Faith is a real person. It would be finally admitting that Buffy is not only a Slayer of Demons, she is a willing Murderer of Teenager. For Buffy to accept any kind of decency on Faith's part would be to acknowledge that Buffy tried, and would have succeeded, to commit a brutal murder the night before she graduated.

Again with the me not being able to agree with you Jill (I've agreed with other people too, damnit! A lot. Why is this machine not letting me agree with you?)

But that above is exactly what I was trying to get to but had a lot of problems sorting those thoughts out.
But asking myself why Buffy would never forgive Faith, I came to the conclusion that Faith's evilness just reminds her too much of herself. And not being able to even accept that she once was capable of being a teenage murderer, just like Faith, she can't forgive her.
What does Faith have to do to earn her forgivness? Sleep with her? It sure worked for Spike...