Buffy hitting Faith!!!

[Mesektet Ra]

killerdwarf, I think, has put it better than any of us could. Rep is given.

Like I explained before, was Faith right in taking the Potientials out? Yes and no. Was Buffy right in hitting Faith? No more so than yes, but it's all a matter of opinion. I think we've come to an equalibrium on this topic. And I also think we should stop beating the dead horse. There's only so many times we can repeat the same thing and come to the same conclusions.

Unless someone has something relevant to add to this discussion, I think we should just drop this. It's old.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

This is a good point, but I don't think "blame" is the right word. I think Buffy was in full command mode during most of S7, in that she suddenly had "troops" that needed training while being in mortal danger. Buffy's only real model for leading a large group was Riley(the scoobs don't count, for the most part they always let Buffy lead and were happy to follow). The military model doesn't do well with questioning orders, and since she had little experience with other models, Buffy fell back on this one. Her fears for the safety of the potentials and her friends, her past with Faith, her inexperience with dissention in the ranks, all contributed to her lashing out physically at the easiest and most capable target. Was it right? Probably not. Was it understandable? Oh yeah.

Genius! I completely agree. When one thinks back on it, it really makes sense. This was a model that Buffy had been exposed to, and used near the end, with the multitude of potentials in her home.

 

[Jonut]

Am I the only person to think that Faith taking the girls to the Bronze what a good thing? Now really you look at it, Buffy did take them out and kill the ubervamp and boost morale a bit, but none of them still had any real experience in fighting or never really seemed to click as a team.

They went to the bronze and had fun for while when there was nothing else to do, big whoop, not the worlds biggest crime. Faith didnt hold a knife to their throats and make them go party, and even Giles agreed that the girls needed a break and let Faith take them, he didn't get punched in the face for it.

When Faith gets dragged out of the club and all the girls are together, what happens? they join together as a team and fight back, they use their training and they pull through together. I know it wasn't planned but in the grand scheme of things, some out of control human police where probably a better option to let them practice on than some super strong vampires and demons, and noone got hurt. I think it was a good experience, the girls seemed a lot more sure of their abilities and banded together as a team than they ever did beforehand. It also it a way seemed to help build up to the 'mutiny' at the end of empty places, which as I have discussed in other threads HAD to happen for them to finally become an army in a war.

It doesn't really matter who was in the wrong really, and buffy hit faith, so what? she may not have handled it well we all agree but it such bad times of war a little punch didnt seem like such a big deal, the bonding that went on with the potentials that night though, was a big step to where they needed to be.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

Am I the only person to think that Faith taking the girls to the Bronze what a good thing? Now really you look at it, Buffy did take them out and kill the ubervamp and boost morale a bit, but none of them still had any real experience in fighting or never really seemed to click as a team.

They went to the bronze and had fun for while when there was nothing else to do, big whoop, not the worlds biggest crime. Faith didnt hold a knife to their throats and make them go party, and even Giles agreed that the girls needed a break and let Faith take them, he didn't get punched in the face for it.

When Faith gets dragged out of the club and all the girls are together, what happens? they join together as a team and fight back, they use their training and they pull through together. I know it wasn't planned but in the grand scheme of things, some out of control human police where probably a better option to let them practice on than some super strong vampires and demons, and noone got hurt. I think it was a good experience, the girls seemed a lot more sure of their abilities and banded together as a team than they ever did beforehand. It also it a way seemed to help build up to the 'mutiny' at the end of empty places, which as I have discussed in other threads HAD to happen for them to finally become an army in a war.

It doesn't really matter who was in the wrong really, and buffy hit faith, so what? she may not have handled it well we all agree but it such bad times of war a little punch didnt seem like such a big deal, the bonding that went on with the potentials that night though, was a big step to where they needed to be.

I don't think it's so much that Faith took the girls out. Who cares about that? It was a matter of taking the girls, and letting some of them become intoxicated. If you think about it, all of them were severly underage, and it was not the best thing for Faith to do. And, to top it off, she got them in a 'barfight'. Yes, I agree with you that they did unite and help fight together, using their training, but it was entirely inappropriate at the time.

 

[Wanabee-slayer]

I think Buffy had every right to hit Faith infact I'm really glad she did.

 

[Jonut]

I don't think it's so much that Faith took the girls out. Who cares about that? It was a matter of taking the girls, and letting some of them become intoxicated. If you think about it, all of them were severly underage, and it was not the best thing for Faith to do. And, to top it off, she got them in a 'barfight'. Yes, I agree with you that they did unite and help fight together, using their training, but it was entirely inappropriate at the time.

I don't know how responsible Faith was for the 'barfight' really, yea the cops came to shoot her but she told everyone she would take care of it outside, she didn't force the girls to fight which buffy did when she ordered them to accompany her to the vineyard. I think that Buffy reacted how she did simply because it was Faith. Had it been Willow, or Xander, or Giles or just the potentials themselves she would have been mad sure, but nwouldn't have hit them.

 

[The Arcane]

I just watched this episode again and I was appalled at buffy, i mean what she did was so wrong, i mean she was the leader of the group and because faith questions her decisions she has to go all barbaric/swinish and punch her in the face. What was she playing at!!!!!! her behaviour was terrible, i so wanted faith to just beat her to within an inch of her life but was also so impressed when she didnt even try, it shows how much faith has grown and matured and shows the complete opposite in buffy, well at least in some ways- it shows how much buffy has changed but was it really for the better or was the change in buffy a negative thing?

I haven't read the majority of this thread so i apologise to anyone if i repeat their thoughts here.

Personally i do think Buffy was wrong to hit Faith on this occasion but i get why it happened. This wasn't about anything that happened that night. That punch was about everything leading up to it.

Even if you ignore the massive amount of stress Buffy was under at the time in just trying to keep the potentials alive, deal with Caleb and stop an Apocalypse, what you can't ignore is the history that Buffy and Faith share. Don't forget that despite the fact that Faith had turned up in Sunnydale again as an ally, her and Buffy had parted as bitter enemies. Was Buffy supposed to just forget everything that had gone on before? The attacking her mother? The stealing her body and life? The sleeping with her then boyfriend? Not to mention the fact that Faith and her hadn't exactly been the best of friends previously.

Buffy, for the greater good, had accepted Faith back into the fold and was trying to put the past behind her but there was bound to be a hell of a lot of buried anger inside her. Every time she spoke to Faith she must have had at the back of her mind that this was a girl that just three years earlier, the last time they had seen one another, had been a bitter enemy who had attacked her family and friends. And she was just supposed to deal with that without any kind of outlet? Not very likely.

Ultimately it had to be released somewhere and even though punching Faith for taking the girls out that night might have seemed unfair at the time, when you look at the big picture, Faith got off lucky that this was all Buffy did to her.

 

[Xin Rong]

Ok fair enough but don't you think stabbing faith should have relieved most of that tension

 

[Kimm]

Faith got off lucky that this was all Buffy did to her.

My thoughts exactly. If some crazy girl had tried to kill my mother, my friends, my boyfriend, me, slept with my boyfriend, etc. I would have done a lot worse than just punch her in the face.

Granted, she did stab her in Season 3 but it was because she was trying to save Angel's life and wouldn't have happened if Faith hadn't shot Angel with the poison arrow.

 

[Jonut]

My thoughts exactly. If some crazy girl had tried to kill my mother, my friends, my boyfriend, me, slept with my boyfriend, etc. I would have done a lot worse than just punch her in the face.

Granted, she did stab her in Season 3 but it was because she was trying to save Angel's life and wouldn't have happened if Faith hadn't shot Angel with the poison arrow.

I think that statement isn't exactly the best way to deal with the situation in general. If you think about it, Willow messed with them all at the end of season 6 and although fueled by grief, she made a choice and hurt all of them, nearly ended the world and was welcomed back with open arms.

All of her friends, including herself have put their friends, buffy's mom, their boyfriends in immediate danger, and none of them get punched in the face. Faith made some bad choices but was back in Sunnydale to do the right thing, willow brought her back, it isn't as though she came back just to terrorize them, she came back to try and help and make things work, she was just a easy outlet to hit when things weren't going her way, why didn't see take it out on spike, a guy who tried to rape her, killed many people, even with a soul, used her for her body, etc etc etc

 

[Kryptonite]

I just watched this episode again and I was appalled at buffy, i mean what she did was so wrong, i mean she was the leader of the group and because faith questions her decisions she has to go all barbaric/swinish and punch her in the face. What was she playing at!!!!!! her behaviour was terrible, i so wanted faith to just beat her to within an inch of her life but was also so impressed when she didnt even try, it shows how much faith has grown and matured and shows the complete opposite in buffy, well at least in some ways- it shows how much buffy has changed but was it really for the better or was the change in buffy a negative thing?

i agree....she was wrong. i hated how much she changed from season 1 to season 2....i liked buffy bbefore season 4...she just got whiny and bitchy after that

 

[Kimm]

I think that statement isn't exactly the best way to deal with the situation in general. If you think about it, Willow messed with them all at the end of season 6 and although fueled by grief, she made a choice and hurt all of them, nearly ended the world and was welcomed back with open arms.

All of her friends, including herself have put their friends, buffy's mom, their boyfriends in immediate danger, and none of them get punched in the face. Faith made some bad choices but was back in Sunnydale to do the right thing, willow brought her back, it isn't as though she came back just to terrorize them, she came back to try and help and make things work, she was just a easy outlet to hit when things weren't going her way, why didn't see take it out on spike, a guy who tried to rape her, killed many people, even with a soul, used her for her body, etc etc etc

I don't think you can compare Willlow's actions and Faith's action at all. Tara died and it sent her out of control. Granted, it wasn't nice of her to put her friends though this stuff and almost end the world but her actions were driven by something much different I think. Willow has also shown throughout all of the seasons that she is a genuinely good person.

Faith continually terrorized Buffy, etc.

I just really don't think there's any comparison at all.

 

[The Arcane]

Ok fair enough but don't you think stabbing faith should have relieved most of that tension

Well, no, not really. To begin with, Buffy stabbed Faith out of desperation. Okay, she was pissed off with her but she wouldn't have gone after her that night if not for the poison killing Angel. Something that Faith herself had caused. Buffy had little or no choice in the matter.

Secondly, and more to the point, the stabbing took place well before the majority of the things that Faith did to Buffy. The bodyswap, the attacking her mum, the sleeping with Riley. All of this was the following year. Straight after that Faith fled to L.A. and then went to prison, pretty much preventing Buffy from getting any closure on the matter. Faith even managed to make things worse by inadvertently coming between Buffy and Angel for a while.

Like i said before, the next time Buffy and Faith meet, Buffy is forced to forgive and forget all that went before and move on, accepting Faith back into the fold. Then, on top of all that, Faith suddenly becomes popular with the potentials and seems to be stepping on Buffy's toes yet again. Now, i don't blame Faith for that last one myself, it wasn't her fault, but you can see how Buffy would feel. Here comes Faith, yet again trying to take her place and authority.

So yeah, in a moment of stress and anger, Buffy lashed out and punched Faith. After all that had gone on before, i don't really blame her for one violent act of passion. Especially as Faith was hardly likely to have been seriously hurt from it. She was a slayer too, remember! 😉

I think that statement isn't exactly the best way to deal with the situation in general. If you think about it, Willow messed with them all at the end of season 6 and although fueled by grief, she made a choice and hurt all of them, nearly ended the world and was welcomed back with open arms.

All of her friends, including herself have put their friends, buffy's mom, their boyfriends in immediate danger, and none of them get punched in the face. Faith made some bad choices but was back in Sunnydale to do the right thing, willow brought her back, it isn't as though she came back just to terrorize them, she came back to try and help and make things work, she was just a easy outlet to hit when things weren't going her way, why didn't see take it out on spike, a guy who tried to rape her, killed many people, even with a soul, used her for her body, etc etc etc

As Kimm already said, you just cannot compare what Faith did to what Willow did, or even Spike for that matter. Willow was not only under the influence of some pretty dark magicks but also psychologically broken. Some may even say temporarily insane. She had little or no control over what she was doing. Not only that but, as terrible as her actions were, they were truly out of character for Willow, who is, at heart, a decent person.

In the case of Spike, up until the end of season six at least, you are talking about a demon. Something with no soul or real compass about what is right or wrong. Basically, as evil as some of his acts were, they were still no worse than anything Faith, soul intact, chose to do. Besides, if you think back to season six, Buffy did use poor old Spike for a little stress relief. She beat him to a bloody pulp in Dead Things, when she believed she had killed Katrina. Spike didn't exactly get away without a few bruises, therefore.

But getting back to Faith, this was a sane (reasonably), ensouled human being who turned on a group of people that were more than willing to be her friends, simply because things weren't going exactly her way. Okay, killing Finch may have pushed her over the edge but she still knew that Buffy and the gang were willing to help her. Despite that she turned to the Mayor. Then she attacked Buffy, the Scoobies, nearly killed Angel ... and so on. All of this whilst fully in control of her actions and knowing what she was doing was wrong, just not caring.

Really not the same thing as either Willow or Spike.

 

[drtroy]

Well I love faith and everything..but during the whole show..she's been an idiot..I understand the vineyard..wasn't the brightest idea..but what the hell was faith thinking..let's go get drunk..I mean come on.

I think Buffy understood that faith had changed in some ways..but faith still behaved like a child half the time..like taking them to the bar...I think buffy
just got tired of faith behaving like a child..and always coming to save the day...or being the mother..or older sister to faith (even though faith was older)...plus she had all the pent up anger..

now if she hit faith because she was angry at other things..than that was wrong..but if it was to knock some sense into her..then I don't really see it as being wrong..

Both sides brought up good points..but I don't buffy could have really talked to faith about it..because faith never really responded to talking..(ie season 3). And I'm sure buffy knew one way to get her attention was by punching the hell out of her to wake her up.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

You can't really compare Faith to any of the other characters, Willow was sent over to the dark side by one big emotional blow, Angel and Spike where under the influence of their soul, or lack there of. If you had to compare her to a character you could compare her to Andrew I think, they treat Andrew terribly in season 7, but they don't hit him because he would not be able to take it, whereas they can hit Faith because she could take it.

 

[Jonut]

I think that you can compare Willows actions to that of Faith's in my personal opinion, they were both a matter of choice and where both brought on by horrible accidents. Faith, accidently killed a man, and I think there are many hints to show that she did regret it and did not mean to do it, but a mix of the taste of death for her, the others reactions and her already deep anxieties and insecurites made her choose the dark side for a while.

Willow is as insecure and fragile as they come, as the seasons progress she gets involved in witchcraft more and more, it makes her feel stronger, gives her an established place within the group, makes her feel needed etc etc. She chose to take up magic, just as she chose to abuse the power that she was given, much like faith abused her power as a slayer. She made a choice and I think that she got sucked into the power and couldn't control what would happen. To say that she had no control over anything when she became evil willow I feel is not accurate because she was the one who chose magic to begin with. Like Faith, an accident sparked off her descent into the dark side and she fell off the wagon, only unlike Faith it was not her hand that killed Tara, and it is essence a different spiral downwards each character took that led them to fall, however, I do think that essentially there can be links drawn to Willow and Faith.

Its also not really true that Willow only terrorized her friends, post Taras death, for although she did not terrorise them to the same degree she still hurt Tara enough to have to walk away, lied to them, tried to alter their minds, and nearly kill dawn before she was completely off the wagon and far on her way to the veiny willow she became.

All throughout Willows addiction, her friends offered her support, offered her help, removed all magic from the house, tried to understand and empathize, much like they did in the beginnings of Faith's downfall and Willow, much like Faith chose to shut them out, make her own choices and mess up royally doing so. They both lied, they both decieved, they both terrorised their friends in doing so.

I'm as much a fan of Willow as I am of Faith but I think that Willow can be held responsible for her actions just as much as Faith, and her friends, including Buffy made allowances for her because she is Willow, because she was trying to make things right again. But they were not willing to do the same for Faith when she tried to make things right again, because she wasn't 'one of the gang' or whatever reason it might be for, which I think seems slightly unjust. Hit Faith sure, but why ssave Willow from that fate? or forgive willow, why not give Faith a chance to prove it was a temporary slip up too?

 

[The Arcane]

I'm as much a fan of Willow as I am of Faith but I think that Willow can be held responsible for her actions just as much as Faith, and her friends, including Buffy made allowances for her because she is Willow, because she was trying to make things right again. But they were not willing to do the same for Faith when she tried to make things right again, because she wasn't 'one of the gang' or whatever reason it might be for, which I think seems slightly unjust. Hit Faith sure, but why ssave Willow from that fate? or forgive willow, why not give Faith a chance to prove it was a temporary slip up too?

See, in my opinion, Faith was getting that chance to prove herself. She had already been accepted back into the Scooby fold and was being treated with as much respect as anyone in the group. This, despite the fact that she had systematically threatened or hurt pretty much everyone that had allowed her back in again. She attacked and practically raped Xander, she held Willow hostage and was about a second away from sticking a knife in her throat when the Mayor made her back off, not to mention all of the things she did to Buffy herself. Regardless of all of this she was back in the group, getting the second chance to redeem herself that you believe she deserved, exactly the same as Willow was given.

However, this isn't what we are really discussing. The punch wasn't about being unwilling to forgive and forget. Buffy was willing to at least try and do that with Faith. Okay they were never going to be best friends and go out on girls nights together but they were able to be allies at least. No, the punch was about pure, unadulterated, pent up, heat of the moment vengeance.

Buffy needed an outlet. She needed to vent her frustrations somehow regarding all that was going on around her, all the responsibility and pressure she was under. She was stressed and Faith got the hard end of that stress right in the face. Was that fair? Maybe, maybe not. We know that Faith wasn't trying to do Buffy any wrong on that occasion but she sure as hell had been about one hundred times before. Times that Buffy had not been able to really pay her back for.

Sure, on that occasion Faith certainly got a raw deal and took the heat for all of the things that were putting Buffy under pressure but if you were to really sit back and look at the balance sheet between the two, Faith got off very lightly. On more than one occasion Faith set out to kill Buffy and her closest family and friends. At the end of the day all she really got in return for that was a punch in the face. Hardly unfair.

 

[+ Matt +]

I'm not sure what I think of Buffy hitting Faith outside the Bronze, however hitting her in the cemetery was a little uncalled for. I mean, sure Buffy had some right to due to their past together, however Faith had only just arrived and was actually there to help Buffy out.

I think those two events were written into the show to make us see how much Faith has changed...There would have been a time she would have hit back almost immediately.

 

[The Arcane]

I'm not sure what I think of Buffy hitting Faith outside the Bronze, however hitting her in the cemetery was a little uncalled for. I mean, sure Buffy had some right to due to their past together, however Faith had only just arrived and was actually there to help Buffy out.

Again, heat of the moment. What you really need to remember is that Faith had been an Uber Bitch to Buffy for nearly as long as she had known her. A little smack in the face was nothing compared to all that had gone before. Besides, the cemetary affair was all in a little fun, and it was hardly going to hurt Faith all that much, was it?

See, that is what it all boils down to for me. This entire thread is about a single ... well okay, maybe two punches and we are talking about slayers here! They are born to fight! they are born to battle demons of immense power who are more than capable of snapping them in half and we are debating a couple of smacks in the face that Faith probably forgot about in a matter of minutes.

So physically Buffy did nothing to Faith that would cause her more than a moments discomfort and morally, well, i think we can all agree that Faith had it coming and that Buffy deserved a little payback.

 

[zombie.apparatus]

I don't think buffy had the right to hit faith i mean that is buffys style "violence" but that is my opinion