Buffy hitting Faith!!!

[eponinethen]

See, that is what it all boils down to for me. This entire thread is about a single ... well okay, maybe two punches and we are talking about slayers here! They are born to fight! they are born to battle demons of immense power who are more than capable of snapping them in half and we are debating a couple of smacks in the face that Faith probably forgot about in a matter of minutes.

Hm, I'm not so sure about that. Well, I don't care about Buffy hitting Faith when she just arrived, I get it, and yeah they're not best friends and they're slayers and I'm sure Faith wasn't hurt physically or emotionally by that. When Buffy hit Faith outside the Bronze though, that's different, that was really personal and it really meant something. Faith was trying, to do the right thing, to not disappoint Buffy, to fight for the good guys.. And Buffy just totally ignored that and acted as if she was oh so much more worth than Faith. Sure you might argue Faith had made a lot of mistakes before, no doubt she had, but she was really trying here "“ and Buffy knew that.. She also knew that Faith gained respect among the potentials, and that bothered her. I think it also bothered Buffy that Faith was trying. Buffy would rather see Faith as a bad guy, 'cause as soon as Faith tries to help, Buffy onlu sees competition. Automatically believes that Faith wants to take away everything Buffy has got (Buffy avted like this from the moment she met Faith). She simply can't get over herself and accept that Faith is only there to help her, and that she might actually need the help, and they might actually be able to do this better if it's the two of them. Come on it's like potentially the last and most important battle ever, and Buffy can't get over the fact that she's scared Faith will steal her glory...
(Ok again, I do understand Buffy, I get why she reacts like this.. I'm just saying it's not really fair and I feel sorry for Faith because she is really trying..)

So physically Buffy did nothing to Faith that would cause her more than a moments discomfort and morally, well, i think we can all agree that Faith had it coming and that Buffy deserved a little payback.

Oh don't say that, there are many who wouldn't agree on that.

 

[The Arcane]

I don't think buffy had the right to hit faith i mean that is buffys style "violence" but that is my opinion

Fair enough, i guess i'm more of an "eye for an eye" kind of guy. If somebody does something to me or to my family or friends then i make sure that they get at least the same right back.

But let's just say that you are right and that Buffy had no right to hit Faith. Would you say that Faith had the right to hit Buffy? Or attack Xander? Or put a knife to Willows throat? Or side with the Mayor in attempting to slaughter half of Sunnydale? Or hold Buffy's mum hostage? Or take Buffy's body and leave her to rot in Watcher custody? Or sleep with Riley? Or torture Wesley? Or punch Cordy? Or try and kill Angel ... twice? Should i go on?

I'm guessing that you don't think she was right in all that. So let me ask you one more thing? If it was you and you had suffered all of that at the hands of an individual who then went and handed herself into the police before you had the chance to get even the smallest amount of payback, wouldn't you lash out at her when a good enough reason presented itself? Sure, she was paying for the crimes she commited according to the law, but not for anything that she had done to you.

Surely there is no way you would be able to let all of that go without getting in a single blow. I know i sure couldn't!

As for Buffy's style being violence, when you spend half your life fighting demons, well that kind of goes without saying. A slayer is all about the violence. It's an integral part of their nature and the reason why they survive for as long as they do. Can't blame her for being what she is.

 

[The Arcane]

Hm, I'm not so sure about that. Well, I don't care about Buffy hitting Faith when she just arrived, I get it, and yeah they're not best friends and they're slayers and I'm sure Faith wasn't hurt physically or emotionally by that. When Buffy hit Faith outside the Bronze though, that's different, that was really personal and it really meant something.

Oh, it was personal alright, and it definately meant something. I'm not going to argue for a second that it was simply about what Faith did that night. Taking the potentials out without consulting Buffy was only the catalyst Buffy needed to let that punch fly. That punch represented every single thing that Faith had done. All the things Buffy had never had the chance to settle accounts for.

Faith was trying, to do the right thing, to not disappoint Buffy, to fight for the good guys.. And Buffy just totally ignored that and acted as if she was oh so much more worth than Faith. Sure you might argue Faith had made a lot of mistakes before, no doubt she had, but she was really trying here "“ and Buffy knew that..

Would that suddenly make everything okay in Buffy's mind though? In life you can forgive but it's a lot harder to forget. Buffy was working alongside Faith again, even treating her as a friend in the way that they were talking, at least up until the events of that evening, so she was working on the forgiveness part, even if only for the sake of the upcoming battle, but forgetting is soooo much harder to do. Leading me to ....

She also knew that Faith gained respect among the potentials, and that bothered her. I think it also bothered Buffy that Faith was trying. Buffy would rather see Faith as a bad guy, 'cause as soon as Faith tries to help, Buffy onlu sees competition. Automatically believes that Faith wants to take away everything Buffy has got (Buffy avted like this from the moment she met Faith).

I think that Buffy had every reason to doubt Faith's motives. Just because she claimed to be back to fight the good fight doesn't mean that she wasn't waiting to stab Buffy in the back again. Buffy had experienced Faith's betrayal too many times to just take things at face value, especially at such a critical time in the war against the First. The last thing she needed was to be watching her own troops, waiting for them to betray her. Buffy was right to keep her eye on somebody who was known for choosing the side of evil.

She simply can't get over herself and accept that Faith is only there to help her, and that she might actually need the help, and they might actually be able to do this better if it's the two of them. Come on it's like potentially the last and most important battle ever, and Buffy can't get over the fact that she's scared Faith will steal her glory...
(Ok again, I do understand Buffy, I get why she reacts like this.. I'm just saying it's not really fair and I feel sorry for Faith because she is really trying..)

This is the one part of your post that i totally disagree with because this makes it sound like Buffy was acting out of self importance and vanity, which could not be further from the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with Faith stealing her glory, at least not in the sense you mean. It is partly because Buffy is concerned that Faith is trying to do that, but only because she is aware that any divide in her ranks would be a fatal mistake at this point and just what the First would need to swoop in and kill off the girls. If Faith was to start coming in between Buffy and the girls, making them question Buffy's leadership at such a critical time, then everything could fall apart. Which was proven to be the case when that is exactly what happened. The girls chose Faith over Buffy, things went to hell and lives were lost. Buffy was well aware of that possibility. So if Buffy was guilty of anything, it was being to protective of the girls that she had been put in charge of protecting.

That is what Buffy was so angry about that night and once you add that to all the stuff that went before, the punch seems quite understandable.

Oh don't say that, there are many who wouldn't agree on that.

Maybe so. There are certainly some of the fanbase that would choose Faith over Buffy no matter what the circumstances. Personally i'm a fan of them both equally so i can look at the situation objectively. If i thought that Buffy was truly wrong for hitting Faith then i'd say so. I just really think that it was acceptable, given the facts.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Buffy hit Faith because she felt like it. That's all. She was pretty much over things and just did it for fun. Besides it was kind of funny! LOL

 

[The Arcane]

Buffy hit Faith because she felt like it. That's all. She was pretty much over things and just did it for fun. Besides it was kind of funny! LOL

Okaaaay! Always nice to see that all the hard work and complex, multi-layered character development that Joss and the other ME writers put into the shows is noticed and appreciated by the fans! :laugh1:

 

[eponinethen]

Oh, it was personal alright, and it definately meant something. I'm not going to argue for a second that it was simply about what Faith did that night. Taking the potentials out without consulting Buffy was only the catalyst Buffy needed to let that punch fly. That punch represented every single thing that Faith had done. All the things Buffy had never had the chance to settle accounts for.

And what a great thing to do that when Faith is trying, when she is once again all alone with no-one who believes in her, but still trying.. Yes, I do understand Buffy, but I don't agree that Faith deserved that, not now.

Would that suddenly make everything okay in Buffy's mind though? In life you can forgive but it's a lot harder to forget.

Hence the understanding her, but she should be able to put that aside... And I wouldn't go nearly as far as saying that Buffy treated Faith as a "friend"... And I don't want Buffy to forget, god knows Faith would never.. But I really doubt Buffy was working on the forgiving part either...

I think that Buffy had every reason to doubt Faith's motives. Just because she claimed to be back to fight the good fight doesn't mean that she wasn't waiting to stab Buffy in the back again. Buffy had experienced Faith's betrayal too many times to just take things at face value, especially at such a critical time in the war against the First. The last thing she needed was to be watching her own troops, waiting for them to betray her. Buffy was right to keep her eye on somebody who was known for choosing the side of evil.

Yes, Faith had made a lot of mistakes in the past, and that I think we all agree on. But I don't believe for a second that Buffy thought Faith was going to stab her in the back. I think she assumed Faith was gonna screw up in one way or another "“ in fact, I think she hoped Faith was gonna screw up, so that Buffy could once again show that she was the true and good slayer, and that Faith was not to be trusted. Buffy didn't want to trust Faith, she didn't want Faith to do good. But I don't believe for a second that she doubted that Faith was trying.

This is the one part of your post that i totally disagree with because this makes it sound like Buffy was acting out of self importance and vanity, which could not be further from the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with Faith stealing her glory, at least not in the sense you mean.

Well I guess we're just disagreeing on that then, since it's quite hard to know for sure right?

If Faith was to start coming in between Buffy and the girls, making them question Buffy's leadership at such a critical time, then everything could fall apart. Which was proven to be the case when that is exactly what happened. The girls chose Faith over Buffy, things went to hell and lives were lost. Buffy was well aware of that possibility. So if Buffy was guilty of anything, it was being to protective of the girls that she had been put in charge of protecting.

I am not in any way saying that Buffy didn't care about the potentials, this hasn't got anything to do with that. But how exactly do you know that everything would've ended so much better if they would've listened to Buffy? Buffy has made mistakes too (no, not as big as the ones faith made earlier but this isn't about that). Both Buffy and Faith screwed up trying to protect the potentials, and Faith's mistake wasn't worse than Buffy's.
And you know Faith wasn't in any way trying to turn the girls against Buffy, Faith never tried to take Buffy's place "“ not in season 3, not now. What bugs me is that that's what Buffy will always believe, she won't see that Faith is just trying to help.

That is what Buffy was so angry about that night and once you add that to all the stuff that went before, the punch seems quite understandable.

As I said in my last post and in all my other posts in this thread: I do understand Buffy. I actually don't blame her for doing what she did, if I had super powers and felt like she did, I'd probably do the same. I'm just saying it wasn't fair if you look at it from Faith's POV. But not even Faith seems to blame Buffy, she understands her as well, which is why she doesn't hit back.. she gets it. It's just sad that no-one can appreciate that Faith is really trying here, and have actually been for a while (in jail but yea, lol)..

Maybe so. There are certainly some of the fanbase that would choose Faith over Buffy no matter what the circumstances. Personally i'm a fan of them both equally so i can look at the situation objectively. If i thought that Buffy was truly wrong for hitting Faith then i'd say so. I just really think that it was acceptable, given the facts.

Oh believe me I am not one of those who thinks everything Faith does is right and everything Buffy does ir wrong, lol, far from. I just feel sorry for Faith, that she couldn't be more accepted in Sunnydale.. Not saying there isn't an explanation for that, but I do think she deserved a second chance in season 7, and I don't agree that she had it coming..

 

[The Arcane]

Epo, i'm not going to debate you point for point again, simply because all i would be doing is repeating what i said in that last post, and we are both obviously entitled to view the events of the show and the acts of the characters in whatever way we choose. not to mention the fact that i'm really hungry and want to go get something to eat soon, lol!

We have all gone into a lot of detail throughout this thread, delving deep into the murky relationship that exists between Buffy and Faith, which just goes to show how good the series actually is. When one punch, in one scene, can create this much debate then that has got to say something about the exceptional quality of the writing staff and the actors involved.

Again, i can't really say anything more than i already have done in this thread so this will likely be my final comment on this subject. I'm going to boil my argument down to it's most basic level and leave it there.

Buffy needed closure on a lot of things that had been done to her by Faith, a person who had, only minutes earlier, pissed her off again. She lashed out and hit Faith. Given what we know about Faith's motivations that night, this was unfair to her, but given what we know about their history up to that point, what Buffy did was understandable. That is my opinion, in a nutshell.

 

[eponinethen]

Epo, i'm not going to debate you point for point again, simply because all i would be doing is repeating what i said in that last post, and we are both obviously entitled to view the events of the show and the acts of the characters in whatever way we choose. not to mention the fact that i'm really hungry and want to go get something to eat soon, lol!

Thank god, when I opened the thread I was scared I was gonna have to answer a long post again, lol.. Really I agree with most of the things you're saying, I just like to argue things from Faith's POV.. thanks for some fun discussing 😉

Buffy needed closure on a lot of things that had been done to her by Faith, a person who had, only minutes earlier, pissed her off again. She lashed out and hit Faith. Given what we know about Faith's motivations that night, this was unfair to her, but given what we know about their history up to that point, what Buffy did was understandable. That is my opinion, in a nutshell.

Yeah so obviously that's pretty much my opinion as well. Damn! Lol...

 

[drtroy]

I really doubt the punch even hurt her..lol it probably was like a sharp poke to her..but I think buffy was saying when she punched her "hey im still mad dont screw this up im givin you a chance" or atleast thats what I thought.
I think she just got tired of playing big sister to faith.

 

[Xin Rong]

I think it had to hurt getting a fully pledged smack from a slayer that actually dropped her and left her a big bruise which was still there that night even with the accelerated healing factor