Buffy in The Gift

Well okay, I understand and see your points about Buffy's descision. I admit, my views are somewhat biased because Dawn is my least favorite character and I would have liked to see her go away.
My other problem is with the monks and The Key itself. Why was it so important to the monks that The Key must be protected? They knew that Glory was after it, right? They also know that it's one and only known purpose is to open the dimesnional portal to send Glory home, right? So . . . why did they want it around for? Why not just get rid of it while they had it to make sure Glory or anyone else couldn't use it to destroy the world? What good is The universe destroying Key being around going to do for Buffy, the monks, or the world? If someone can manage to defend THIS argument, I'll be very impressed.
 
When Gregor, the general of the Knights of Byzantium, is captured in Spiral 5ABB20, he explains:

BUFFY: Why didn't they just destroy it? If the key is as dangerous as-
GREGOR: Because they were fools. They thought they could harness its power for the forces of light. They failed, and paid with their blood.

The monks were looking to use the key as their source of power and ignored the consequences of doing so. We get no explanation of how the key could possibly be used for good - say, transferring something from one dimension into another (which is much more common in the Angel series) without having all dimensions bleed into each other. They should have destroyed it before they created Dawn, but then Dawn was one of my favourite characters on the show and Michelle Trachtenberg was easily the best actress of any of the series regulars.
 
Well, okay, kudos to that. I don't watch the final episodes of Season five, so I forgot all about that conversation Buffy had with Gregor.
Can't say I agree with what you said about Dawn and Trachtenberg (Alyson Hannigan and Sarah Michelle Gellar are WAY better), but I do understand the monk's descision now. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
 
I've often wondered if part of the reason that Season 5 ended the way that it did was that the WB was cancelling the show, and Joss set up the plot line to actually end with Buffy's death, in case he couldn't manage to sell the show somewhere else, and even if he did manage to do so, maybe he wasn't sure if he could get the entire cast (particularly, of course, Sarah, who had made the statement somewhere that she didn't want to play the character if it wasn't on the WB) to stay with him. If he sold the show without them, he could always start over with a new Slayer (Faith, maybe, or her successor, explained by having her executed for murder, thereby causing a new Slayer to be called) coming to town to stand watch over the hellmouth.

I know that that doesn't actually explain Buffy's actions as much as that those actions were dictated by circumstances in the real world as opposed to the Buffyverse, but I just though that I would toss it into the conversation, anyway.
 
Blaze said:
Do you have any sibling?

I would have done the same for my brother.

If I was Buffy and Dawn had to die, I would have done the same by killing myself first.
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I was going to reply similarly. I would have asked do you have any children? Dawn in reality is more akin to being Buffy's daughter. Parents would do anything to save their child from pain, and it would take a rare person who could inflict pain/death on their own child, even if it was for the greater good.

Although, I agree with your logic, but I understand Buffy's decision, if not her attitude towards her friends. I loved this episode, but I am so glad it didn't end up being the finale of the show, as that would have been truly devastating!
 
EVIL UU said:
Because the monks made her feel that way. In "Something Blue" Buffy felt like marrying Spike, she truly loved him and just as with Dawn, it wasn't real. Buffy was brainwashed. In season 5 she realizes it but she's not strong enough to face the reality, strong enough to endure and to live. I think this is Buffy at her absolute weakest.
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I agree that her choice was ridiculous and absolutely wrong, but it would only be weak in everything other circumstance. She knew the monks made her feel that way, but she still felt that way. Her awareness just couldn't overpower the monks' magic, and quite frankly that was the entire point. Buffy was bound to figure out that Dawn was the Key sometime, that she was a construct, and it would be deeply stupid of the monks not to make her emotions for Dawn less than the shock of her altered memories would be. (Not to say the monks weren't already pretty stupid with the whole turning the Key into flesh and blood.) So really, Buffy didn't exactly have a choice, even knowing it was fake.
 
[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]
So really, Buffy didn't exactly have a choice, even knowing it was fake.
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Well, if she didn't have a choice then she's exactly like Buffy-Bot. Nothing she does matters. She killed herself because a trio of virgins from Czech Republic programmed her to do so. No heroism, no love, not even martyr complex, just programming.

I think that's even more pathetic.
 
The way Buffy see it, she had been with her baby sister for 15 years, doesn't matter if it was real or fake, she had a choice, and in my opinion she made the choice any big sister would have made.
 
EVIL UU said:
[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]


Well, if she didn't have a choice then she's exactly like Buffy-Bot. Nothing she does matters. She killed herself because a trio of virgins from Czech Republic programmed her to do so. No heroism, no love, not even martyr complex, just programming.

I think that's even more pathetic.
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That same thing applies for the rest of humanity then, if anyone had the misfortune of being subject to the monks' magic. Thinking about what you say about programming, I'd say you can drag that out even further into determinism.
 
[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]
Thinking about what you say about programming, I'd say you can drag that out even further into determinism.
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Never. Determinism is nothing but garbage for the weak-minded.
 
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
How much blood does it take to close the portal? It was like a drop to open it but a whole body to close it? Same with Angel, this doesn't make sense. Also I'm assuming that they think if Buffy dies it will activate a new slayer, but why do they think that? And shouldn't they have told Faith, that Buffy is dead and she is the only slayer left. I'm going to assume the watcher's council didn't know that Buffy died, but I am curious as to how they know when a new slayer is activated. Does Dawn dying mean they will forget her or would they still remember her. Cuz if they forget her then sacrifice her. Buffy did what she thought was the right thing, that's what she does. I'm just glad it wasn't the series finale.
 
Fuffy Baith said:
How much blood does it take to close the portal? It was like a drop to open it but a whole body to close it? Same with Angel, this doesn't make sense.
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Portals are a funny thing, but at least this is pretty consistent through out the verse. Once a portal is open, death is pretty much the only way to close it, or at least that's my guess. It makes sense with what were shown. Because we need blood to open it (which can be very small quantity), but to close we need the blood to stop flowing, in other words, death.

Also I'm assuming that they think if Buffy dies it will activate a new slayer, but why do they think that? And shouldn't they have told Faith, that Buffy is dead and she is the only slayer left. I'm going to assume the watcher's council didn't know that Buffy died, but I am curious as to how they know when a new slayer is activated.
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I might be wrong but I think they knew a new slayer would not be activated. I think they realized this when Kendra died and the line was transferred to Faith. At this point they came to the conclusion that Faith would have to die for a new slayer to be call, although this still has not been 100% confirmed. Also, they most likely did not tell anyone because Willow was already planning to bring Buffy back. From the beginning her death was temporary.

Does Dawn dying mean they will forget her or would they still remember her. Cuz if they forget her then sacrifice her. Buffy did what she thought was the right thing, that's what she does. I'm just glad it wasn't the series finale.
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This is an interesting question. My opinion is that now that Dawn is body and blood, and that her death would close the portal, it would mean that the spell that created her could not be broken, or else the portal would be open forever. This is pure speculation on my part, but in this case she would simply die and the spell would not be undone. From the beginning the key had to be human, so at this point I think they would have remembered her death. In my head it's just not very logical for the spell to be broken in order to close the portal, quite the contrary the spell could not possibly have been broken at that time without dooming the world. Okay, I'm blabbing, hopefully I was clear.
 
Blaze said:
I might be wrong but I think they knew a new slayer would not be activated. I think they realized this when Kendra died and the line was transferred to Faith. At this point they came to the conclusion that Faith would have to die for a new slayer to be call, although this still has not been 100% confirmed. Also, they most likely did not tell anyone because Willow was already planning to bring Buffy back. From the beginning her death was temporary.
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Most likely, Giles and the Scoobies concealed Buffy's death by repairing and reprogramming the Buffybot for one or both of two reasons. First, if the truth about Buffy's death had gotten out, dawn would have been either shipped off to live with Hank Summers or would have been taken by Child Services, either of which would have taken her away from where she wanted to be. Also consider the fact that they had no idea at that time whether the Key was still active or not, or whether or not there was anyone else who might be interested in getting their hands on her, and until they were sure, she, and possibly the world, was safer with her in the care of someone qualified to handle any bad situation that might arise. Or maybe not as qualified as just aware of the possibilities and able to recognize trouble before it got too far along.

Secondly, as you mentioned, they MIGHT have been concealing Buffy's death to keep Faith relatively safe. With the real Slayer behind bars, Buffy had been fulfilling her duties, so everything was pretty muck okay. If the Watchers' Council knew that Buffy was actually dead, they might very well have gotten the idea that the simplest solution to the problem would be to kill Faith and allow a new, hopefully more tractable, to be Called.
 
thetopher
thetopher
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white avenger said:
Secondly, as you mentioned, they MIGHT have been concealing Buffy's death to keep Faith relatively safe. With the real Slayer behind bars, Buffy had been fulfilling her duties, so everything was pretty muck okay. If the Watchers' Council knew that Buffy was actually dead, they might very well have gotten the idea that the simplest solution to the problem would be to kill Faith and allow a new, hopefully more tractable, to be Called.
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As much as I'd love to think that the scoobies cared enough about Faith to take her life into consideration, I think the chances are pretty slim. I think it was more of a happy accident, but it was something I'd never considered before, you've given me something to ponder....
 
Xin Rong said:
As much as I'd love to think that the scoobies cared enough about Faith to take her life into consideration, I think the chances are pretty slim. I think it was more of a happy accident, but it was something I'd never considered before, you've given me something to ponder....
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Chances aren't necessarily all that slim. By that time I have little doubt that either Buffy or someone from LA had told Giles and the others about Faith turning herself in and trying to at least own up to what she had done and accept punishment for it. I don't think that they were exactly ready to welcome her back into the fold with open arms and big wet kisses, but I still doubt that they would have let her be killed if they could prevent it.
 
white avenger said:
Chances aren't necessarily all that slim. By that time I have little doubt that either Buffy or someone from LA had told Giles and the others about Faith turning herself in and trying to at least own up to what she had done and accept punishment for it. I don't think that they were exactly ready to welcome her back into the fold with open arms and big wet kisses, but I still doubt that they would have let her be killed if they could prevent it.
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Yes but the scoobies are very contained to their own world: Sunnydale etc., I don't think Faith would have even entered into their decision making process. I mean they never considered that Buffy might be in heaven, or the ramifications that might come about as a result of resurrecting Buffy, so I doubt they thought about Faith, especially considering Willow was the new leader of the gang, and she had exhibited a selfishness towards her own friends, which would have been amplified towards her frenemies, i.e. Faith
 
I honestly think the Scoobies completely forgot about Faith after she went to prison, they barely mention her after Season 4. The only person who has regular contact with Faith is Angel, and I get the feeling he stops seeing her about the middle of season 3 of Angel (she doesn't know anything about his son, for example.)

And Xin Rong is right Willow is firmly in charge of the group after Buffy's death and I always that she disliked Faith almost as much as Buffy. (she disliked her before Buffy did that's for sure...)
And Willow, on her power trip, doubtless didn't give Faith a first thought, never mind a second.

Although I do love the idea that if the Watcher's Council knew about Buffy's death they'd arrange for Faith to die in prison. (riot, death penalty snafu or something.) Makes perfect sense to me that they'd do that. 🙁
 
If the Watchers Council were going to kill Faith just cuz Buffy died, what would stop them from doing it before she died?

I dont think they thought about it, their best friend just died. Faith wasn't someone they could trust at the time, I doubt she even crossed their minds.

And yeah becasue willow was in charge, she also knew Buffy was coming back by the end of the summer.
 
Blaze
Blaze
[No message]
Ya, in my original post I didn't mean that they did it too protect Faith. Really I doubt they took Faith too much in consideration aside from the fact that they knew a new slayer wouldn't be called, and they knew Buffy would come back. For that three month period it's really all that mattered. It was a temporary thing.
 
Black Eye Guy said:
If the Watchers Council were going to kill Faith just cuz Buffy died, what would stop them from doing it before she died?

I dont think they thought about it, their best friend just died. Faith wasn't someone they could trust at the time, I doubt she even crossed their minds.

And yeah becasue willow was in charge, she also knew Buffy was coming back by the end of the summer.
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First and formost the Watcher's Council in pragmatic. By the end of 'Checkpoint' they're back working with the Slayer as she fights Glory/gaurds the hellmouth. There's no real need to worry about a rogue slayer in jail.
But if Buffy dies and no new Slayer is called then they have to deal with Faith, otherwise no more Slayers until Faith gets out of prison in possibly 25 yrs. (or busts out to help Angel in S4, but whatever.)
 
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