Originally posted by queenofbuffdom86
Besides, remember how Spike tried to rape Buffy? How could you do that to someone you really love?! You couldn't. AngelsSoul is right; it's lust, not love.
Been awhile for this thread but I was skimming through and I gotta say I disagree.
After his horribly obtrusive action on Buffy, Spike begins to remark (to Clem) about the aching sensations in his head. He, however attributes this to his chip. What I believe Spike is experiencing here is a human emotion he hasn't felt in well over a century: guilt and therefore cannot recognize it.
SPIKE: I can feel it. Squirming inside my head.
CLEM: Love?
SPIKE: The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket, gnawing bits and chunks.
.....
SPIKE: Everything used to be so clear. Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his teeth with her bones.
.....
SPIKE: That's how it's always been. I've tasted the life of two Slayers. But with Buffy...This isn't the way it's supposed to be. It's the chip. Steel and wires and silicon. It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm nothing.
This is the moment when Spike decides to seek his soul, his guilt commanding him to right his wrong. Spike never contemplates his copious kills. He feels no remorse or regret for his past. In fact I'd argue he still harbors pride for his existence as a pre-chipped vampire. Paradoxically, the pain he inflicts on one single human being--Buffy--is the catalyst for his impending transformation.
I am amazed at the amount of empathy I feel for Spike in spite of 'Seeing Red'. Don't get me wrong; it was detestable and unjustified, but it was also relevatory. I'm not going to go on a rant of how it was then he decided to obtain his soul: already did that. But what else it conveyed was the profundity of his frustration. Previously we had witnessed Spike as a stalker of sorts; season 5 and the beginning of S6 show this. It is when Buffy instigates a sexual relationship that he realizes that there may be room for more....
I am reminded of that great scene in 'Into the Woods' when Riley confronts Spike about his obsession:
SPIKE:Sometimes I envy you so much it chokes me. And sometimes I think I got the better deal. To be that close to her and not have her. To be all alone even when you're holding her. Feeling her, feeling her beneath you. Surrounding you. The scent ... No, you got the better deal.
Here Spike laments his desire to be closer to Buffy. He seems to have noticed that Buffy is strangely untouchable to Riley, that the basis of their relationship is purely carnal. However, when Spike finds himself in the same position that Riley once stood, it is unbearable him because he is alone even when he is holding her. Again I'll reiterate that Spike is propelled by his love; he has nothing else except the captivity of his own ineptitude to kill. When Buffy invites him in, she has no idea what she is in for, no idea how deep and governing his motivation truly is. She has always been able to control him, put him in line when he steps out. 'Seeing Red' showcases Spike's frustation with Buffy. Although what he did was immoral and wrong, I think we could have seen it coming and Buffy should have seen it coming, too. Her remarks throughout the season are painful and biting and she must have known that it touched him as such. It's not her fault to have let this event happen, but Buffy, I think, has some soul-searching to do of her own. Even when she breaks off their relationship she thinks of only herself and how it is killing her.
Originally posted by FiveByFiveB
It was Spike that tried to rape her, not William. Same thing as "It was Angelus, and not Angel that tried to kill her friends". William was "a completely different person".
I feel that it was, paradoxically, the humanity inside him that committed this act and not the evil demon he has so willingly suppressed. It is why he seeks his soul. The monster has almost completely dissipated from him, but the emerging man violated the woman he loved.
The attempted rape is the moment of epiphany for Spike. It is not only his remorseful expression, but also his interrupted apology. After Buffy kicks him across the room, he says, "Oh god. Buffy... I didn't --" Yep, definitely remorse. As you said in your post, this scene is not about Buffy. She may be the victim, but that is exactly why it's Spike's scene; he put in her in that position.
While Spike does place blame on his chip, I feel it isn't because he doesn't want to accept culpability, but because he doesn't recognize the emotion. Remorse implies that the conscience is involved. Does Spike possess a conscience? Absolutely. I think we have seen this throughout S6 as well as much of S5, particularly with 'Intervention'. I will say, however, that his conscience isn't a pure one; that is, he only has a sense of right and wrong because of Buffy's influence and his desire to obtain her, to be a man. When Buffy confronts him about the camera she finds in 'Entropy' he proclaims, "You think I could do that?" and then "I don't hurt you."
But if Buffy's role as a slayer is somehow hazier now than it previously has been, so is the role of the vampire (and I might add other demons such as Clem). I remember that Buffy even points out to Riley in 'New Moon Rising' that it isn't as black and white as he would like it to be--at the time, of course, she she is referring to Oz and Angel, but that doesn't take the pertinence out of Spike's new inclusion into this gray area:
BUFFY: You sounded like Mr. Initiative. Demons bad, people good.
RILEY: Something wrong with that theorem?
BUFFY: There's different degrees of-
RILEY: Evil?
BUFFY: It's just... different with different demons. There are creatures --vampires, for example -- that aren't evil at all.
But this is why I love 'BtVS'. It shows both sides of the coin with humans and demons. It's not cut and dry because life is truly not that simple. ME has painted themselves in a corner, but I also think it was something they needed to do. I think many of us Spike fans because he is evil, but his malice has strayed from where it once derived. Stories of redemption are the most provactive of tales because they challenge us to examine the atrocities of our own lives regardless of how good or bad we may be.
I'm again reminded of Giles who once said that we don't forgive someone because they deserve it, we forgive them because they need us to.
