Buffy : Unpopular Opinions

WillowFromBuffy said:
Two against one. That makes me the minority 😛
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Burned on a technicality! But I think your view is pretty widely shared from what I've read.

WillowFromBuffy said:
Wouldn't the most adult thing be to stay alive and provide for Dawn? I know the situation didn't allow for that, but the sacrifice left a bitter taste in my mouth. It felt as if Buffy was happy to get a way out of all that was difficult.
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To me, she was happy to get a solution that didn't require her to sacrifice her humanity/innocence/own "child." That didn't require her to become another Glory, super powerful but unable to truly love. She figured out the work she had to do. When Buffy knocks Giles out before going off to face her death the first time, she says to Jenny: "When he wakes up, tell him... I don't know. Think of something cool; tell him I said it." When she faces her death a second time, she says to Dawn, "Tell Giles I figured it out." I think that's a huge statement about how far Buffy journeys over four years. In S1, she knows her duty as the slayer. I think in S5, she's found a deeper meaning. She's giving up her life to save the world, and leaving what she sees as the best part of herself, her "child," to carry on.

But I'm still not arguing the show should have ended there. Because then Buffy would have been another slayer who did the job and died. Instead we got a slayer who was able to change everything.

Mylie said:
I'm always a bit disappointed when people only see the sacrifice part of it, as if Buffy is a completely selfless and perfect human being and her being incredibly human and suffering from depression wasn't a factor at all in her arc in season 5. If it was a complete sacrifice, they wouldn't have put so much focus on her being exhausted of it all.
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I don't think Buffy was perfect at all, and I agree that she was tired of losing the people she loved, but to me The Weight of the World took on the idea of Buffy giving up and she ultimately rejected it. For me to be convinced that Buffy was taking an easy escape or giving up, then there had to be another solution, and I don't know what that would have been. Buffy's sadness about her life may have made it easier for her to make peace with her decision, but she didn't have another choice she was willing to accept, so I still put the weight on the scale much closer to sacrifice than suicide.
 
Grace said:
To me, she was happy to get a solution that didn't require her to sacrifice her humanity/innocence/own "child." That didn't require her to become another Glory, super powerful but unable to truly love. She figured out the work she had to do. When Buffy knocks Giles out before going off to face her death the first time, she says to Jenny: "When he wakes up, tell him... I don't know. Think of something cool; tell him I said it." When she faces her death a second time, she says to Dawn, "Tell Giles I figured it out." I think that's a huge statement about how far Buffy journeys over four years. In S1, she knows her duty as the slayer. I think in S5, she's found a deeper meaning. She's giving up her life to save the world, and leaving what she sees as the best part of herself, her "child," to carry on.

But I'm still not arguing the show should have ended there. Because then Buffy would have been another slayer who did the job and died. Instead we got a slayer who was able to change everything.
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Yes, Buffy saving Dawn was important.

However, I don't agree with your comparison to Prophecy Girl. Asking Jenny to tell Giles she said something cool suggests to me that she is in an emotional state that defies word. Last time she spoke to Giles, she had a breakdown where she laughs, screams and cries. I think her sacrifice then was even more heroic, because she gives her life to help her friends, even though her life at this point is extremely precious to her.

I don't like martyrdom. Buffy is about sacrifice, but it is above all about survival and being in it for the long game. "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it." "It is hard and it is every day." Therefore I am happy a certain witch got her out of the grave and back to her sister, friends and her calling.

When the remains of Angel Investigations face their likely death in the rainy alley, it makes sense, because they are all damaged goods. They are sad mopey old men plus one sorta woman, ruined by grief. Buffy was only 20 or something. She was marked by her experiences, but even in the last two seasons, I still feel she is capable of one day enjoying a happy life.
 
Willow's character did evil, dangerous things way before S6 and Dark Willow. Even if she hadn't brought Buffy back she still would've gone over the edge for some reason or other.
Also she gets forgiven the easiest of any character on the show; its weak writing.

The Scoobies are directly or indirectly responsible for every apocalypse after S5 (including the comics until S11). That's spectacularly bad.

Season 1 is actually pretty good, since it does the hard task of creating characters we love after only 12 episodes. S1 is the reason S2 is so good; since S2 is all about the interplay between those characters.

The whole Buffy sleeping with vampires thing is actually creepy and not sexy at all.

When it comes to Anya/Xander I'm always, always on his side; even during and after Hell's Belles. Probably because he never slaughtered thousands.
Xander also has the best (male) character arc, but its subtle.

The Scoobies are utterly heartless and crappy for not warning that Faith was in danger the second the frigging Watcher's council was blown up. Prison is not invulnerable.

I'm rooting for almost everyone but Buffy in 'Empty Places' and their concerns were entirely legitimate. I hate how Spike acts in the next episode and how he picks on Faith- who is the one person who didn't fully turn on Buffy (even though she had plenty of reason to).
Also Buffy in 'Touched' is kinda a crappy person until she goes and fights Caleb.

I actually hate Spike more for all the unnecessary punching of Anya, Buffy and Faith (in S7) and Angel (in S5 Destiny) than I do for anything that happened pre-soul. I don't understand why more fans don't call him out for this crap.
Same for the coat; its toxic and creepy and only Angel says so.
 
Evil Seal said:
Do you have any examples in mind?
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Willow was one step away from completing a spell where Oz would never find love again. This is a huge evil, to guarantee someone else's unhappiness.

"Doppelgangland" started with Willow and Anya performing a spell to locate Anya's talisman and we get to meet the Willow we never knew.

Although "Something Blue" is a great comedy episode, Willow condemns Xander to attracting demons, Giles goes blind and Buffy and Spike announce their forthcoming marriage. There is another thread I started where I postulate that the spell never got fully reversed. From then on, Xander only dates people with supernatural content, Giles is never the visionary he was and Spuffy begins.

"Triangle" almost gets out of control with the release of the Troll who had been Aud's husband, who as it turns out, has the same taste for babies that the underground demon in "Band Candy" had.
 
thetopher said:
The Scoobies are directly or indirectly responsible for every apocalypse after S5 (including the comics until S11). That's spectacularly bad.
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I never really thought of that! Interesting!

thetopher said:
Xander also has the best (male) character arc, but its subtle.
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*hearts this opinion*


thetopher said:
I'm rooting for almost everyone but Buffy in 'Empty Places' and their concerns were entirely legitimate.
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I feel the same way.
 
Evil Seal said:
Do you have any examples in mind?
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Doppelgangland. Something Blue. Triangle.
Every year Willow makes the same mistake about abusing power that puts tons of lives in danger; how many people did VampWillow kill? Or hell, the troll knocked down a building- that's major damage- but its played as a comedy episode.
If Willow learned from her mistakes then that would be something (like Xander did after S2) but she doesn't; so culpable.
 
Fool for Buffy
Fool for Buffy
Add Lovers Walk and her trying to manipulate Xander’s feelings with magic
- I don't like very much Happy Anniversary episode of ATS S2
- I love the episode reptile boy of BTVS S2
- I love ATS S4
- I like riley and Briley
- I like Dawn and Buffy & Dawn's relationship
- I kind of love Kate (but sometimes she is annoying with the Angel 's blaming thing).
- I love Spuffy 😛
- I find Spike funny at moments in BTVS S5😛.
- Lindsey is more interesting than Lilah IMO.
- Buffy's character is not annoying
- BTVS S6 & 7 is good for me (not the same as the previous seasons but good with ICONIC episodes).
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Yay I love find AtS s4 apologists like me!
thetopher said:
Doppelgangland. Something Blue. Triangle.
Every year Willow makes the same mistake about abusing power that puts tons of lives in danger; how many people did VampWillow kill? Or hell, the troll knocked down a building- that's major damage- but its played as a comedy episode.
If Willow learned from her mistakes then that would be something (like Xander did after S2) but she doesn't; so culpable.
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Well in Doppelgangland, she says to Anya that it's dangerous to abuse or use magic and that she shouldn't but the next episode Enemies I think, she hasn't learn the lesson because there's a moment where she tells that Giles hide magic books with spells from her. In Triangle I don't think she would have bring the Troll if Anya didn't talk every minutes to distract her. But to Willow's credit, if people and I would have power of doing magic, we would likely want to and love to use magic if we could. I don't think doing magic is wrong. Who wouldn't like to use magic for our gain, it's normal to want to use it if we have power magic lol. It suck that we can't. I want to do magic.
 
spikenbuffy said:
Well in Doppelgangland, she says to Anya that it's dangerous to abuse or use magic and that she shouldn't but the next episode Enemies I think, she hasn't learn the lesson because there's a moment where she tells that Giles hide magic books with spells from her. In Triangle I don't think she would have bring the Troll if Anya didn't talk every minutes to distract her. But to Willow's credit, if people and I would have power of doing magic, we would likely want to and love to use magic if we could. I don't think doing magic is wrong.
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I would accept one instance as unfortunate, unlucky or careless. But three instances of 'magical accidents' that Willow does not seem to learn from- before S6 happens- smacks of utter recklessness.
Willow has talent and she pushes herself hard - and she's not wrong to do that because her motives are mostly pure- but she's also incredibly lucky nobody died because of her incompetence.
 
I think Doppelgangland can't technically be counted as an example of Willow using magic badly - because she does so at the behest of Anya. She thinks it's a retrieval spell for an old necklace, going in there is no reason for her to assume that necklace is in an alternate hell dimension. She straight out asks if it's dangerous (admittedly she wants it to be) and Anya tells her it isn't. That one is deffo on Anya. But she does abuse magic in S3 - the infamous delusting of Lovers Walk.

As for Buffy in the gift - I see the sacrifice way more than giving up. I see that smile as her sudden understanding - a great shining clarity of what has to be done. This is a silly story - but it is the closest to that moment I have ever lived: When I was a teenager I was visiting Rome, sitting in a street cafe, when there was what sounded like an explosion. At the time there had been a very recent terror attack in Italy (it was pre 9/11 - bombs went off quite regularly in Europe back then) and on hearing that sudden bang I assumed it was a bomb and I knew I was going to die. I had a moment of utter certainty - and it wasn't scary or sad - it was like a calm I have never experienced before or since. A sense of peace that I can't describe - and for a moment everything was clear and made sense ... and then it wasn't a bomb, it turned out a bus had run over an empty plastic bottle and made it pop - my tortellini came out from the kitchen and the world continued to turn (like I said - a silly story). I didn't want to die before, I didn't want to die immediately afterwards - but for one brief moment I was totally serene and OK with the idea.
That's what I see in the gift. She looks into the light and just suddenly understands exactly what she was here for - what she was born to do, what her purpose is. She has no fear or doubt - she just has that utter calm that only true certainty can bring. She isn't running away from her problems - she is running to her purpose. That's why she tells Giles she has figured it out. It's like she's discovered the meaning of her own life. And when she tells Dawn the hardest thing in the world is to live in it - she means all the uncertainty that life brings - and the fear that comes along with it. Not knowing what you're supposed to do, or what the answers are, or what happens next ... it all makes life hard. That has all been stripped away for Buffy - she is more certain than she has ever been in her life - and she likes the feeling.
She's glad to go - but it's neither suicide or sacrifice - it's getting her job done, finishing the work she was born to do, and knowing that Dawn is there to live the life she never could.
The cruelty of Willow taking her out of her grave - even beyond the depression - is that in 'Chosen' she says she hasn't done baking yet. But up on that tower she has done baking - she is cookies.

My personal unpopular opinions: I'm another Dawn fan
I hate faith
I hate Willow
After season 7 I hate Giles - and it echoes back through the previous seasons so I don't ever like or trust him (though I did first time around).
I enjoy Go Fish and Beer Bad, but I find Lie to Me deadly dull.
 
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