Buffy vs. Dawn - Season Six

BananaBuffy

BananaBuffy

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This conversation started on twitter between me, Tillow4ever and zobothehobo. So, yes my friends...if you haven't already you must join twitter--we do have interesting discussions sometimes. Anywhoo, Zoe said something about hating Dawn for various reasons and Jane and I came up defending the teenager everyone loves to hate. To us, I suppose Dawn is relatable. We're around her age and I know I am going through similar things. But then Zoe made me think that I actually almost relate to Buffy in the situation more since I have a little sister who just makes it harder by going on and on about her problems and forgetting that the rest of us have them too.

So, I pose this question..and try not to hate on Dawn too much when you answer it. Who do you side with in this season? Buffy or Dawn? Both are having problems. Dawn is feeling ignored, Buffy won't give her the time of day because she has other things on her mind. Just tell me who you relate to more or who you side with and why. I figured this was an interesting discussion if not everybody comes up on the side of Buffy because they hate Dawn. Please, actually think about this. Go back and step into your teenage shoes a bit. I'm not telling you that the things Dawn did (stealing, etc) are right but just think about it.

🙂
 
Like I said on twitter, I'm a Buffy person. During this re-watch I've really realized how much I relate to Buffy. This re-watch I also realized how likeable Dawn is in season 5. But once again, as in every re-watch I do... All The Way came around and I was like "Wow Dawn, you're such a bratty obnoxious little kid and I wish you'd go away." I guess I feel like in this season she's so self involved. Last season it was all about her. She was it. She was the mission. Now... she's not. I think it was hard for her to deal with... She was one of the most pivotal points of season 5... Glory wanted/needed her. Buffy's job in season 5 was to protect Dawn. Now Dawn's just Buffy's sister. She'll still protect Dawn, but it's not all about her. And Dawn backlashed from that. And I get it... I mean if things in my family were all about me for a year and then BAM they weren't anymore, I'd be like "HEY OVER HERE!!!! REMEMBER ME?!?!?!?!?!" But still. I've felt what Buffy feels in this season... not the being pulled out of heaven part... but the depression and wanting to die part... yeah. I felt that. Dawn reminds me of my own sister in this season... Whiny, self involved, ungrateful, inconsiderate... all of it. Sometimes the world doesn't revolve around you and sometimes when you're in a family you have to pay attention to the other members and what they need. I can only imagine if in one of our family crises me or my sisters decided it had to be all about us... Well actually I don't have to imagine because i can remember. When mom got diagnosed with MS, Xena started acting up all over the place... almost getting herself kicked out of school... That's what Dawn did in my eyes and I don't excuse it.
 
If you saw my post in the dawn topic, definitely buffy. When we saw Buffy she was 15 (I'm nearly positive as the school year starts in aug/sept and her birthday is jan). Anyway Buffy was way more mature than dawn at that same age. Buffy not only has to be the slayer, she has to be a mom to dawn, earn a wage, and somehow still have a life. What positive thing has dawn ever really done? How does she help buffy? Twice she got inbetween giles and buffy. First Giles wanting to kill her to save the world, and then after dawn ran off to suck face with a vamp. Buffy could have handled herself a lot better without Dawn around.

Sorry, she is my second to last favorite person on the show. Kennedy is of course my least favorite.
 
Didn't that lady from social services issue her a warning in 'Gone'? Objectively speaking, Buffy was being a lousy parent. She left Dawn alone while she was out banging Spike. And let us not speak of the horror that is the squished Doublemeat burger. Thank God Dawn refused it.

At any rate, Dawn's role was ancillary to Buffy's depression arc, and another burden she had to endure after being ripped out of heaven.
 
The Unspoken said:
Didn't that lady from social services issue her a warning in 'Gone'? Objectively speaking, Buffy was being a lousy parent. She left Dawn alone while she was out banging Spike. And let us not speak of the horror that is the squished Doublemeat burger. Thank God Dawn refused it.

At any rate, Dawn's role was ancillary to Buffy's depression arc, and another burden she had to endure after being ripped out of heaven.
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Um... I felt the point was that the lady from Social Services was being kind of unfair and judging before really getting to know the situation. She was there for like what? 5 minutes and decided Buffy wasn't fit to be Dawn's parent? I would hope that in real life the SS people take a bit longer than that to decide what's right for the child. And Dawn was 15 years old. At 15 both my parents left me alone. Heck at 14 I was taking care of my younger sister while my mom was at her political meetings... that meant being there when she got home, making sure she did her homework, feeding her, getting her bathed, and getting her to bed at a reasonable hour. If I could do all of that at 14, I expect Dawn to be ok for a few hours while Buffy is away... even if it's to have sex with Spike.
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
YES. Heck, I was baby-sitting other people's kids when I was 12!
I'm totally with Buffy. We were all Dawn's age, and I remember me.. I wasn't anything like her. She caused Buffy more problems than she needed, told her she doesn't even care about her own mother.. Buffy always reacted upon her. She always saved her. It was her duty, but she did it with a passion because Dawn is her sister. And Dawn was grateful for 5 minutes, and then went balistic again. Little respect?
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
They both had reasons to behave the way they did. I just don't like when Buffy chose to shag Spike behind the tree while Dawnie was waiting for her burger.

I team Dawn. She lost her mom when she's still young. But I didn't expect Buffy to be a better guardian.
 
Strangely, this is the season that I actually prefer Dawn in. I don't know why, because she's very annoying this season. But she's more annoying in season 5, and even more annyoing in season 7. I know most fans think exactly the opposite. But in season 6 I actually relate to Dawn somewhat. I feel for her. And Buffy is very self involved here (and mean to Spike, ugh). BUT I still side Buffy. She has a lot to handle, especially at later seasons (ever since Dawn showed up?). And Dawn is just another burden which I understand Buffy not wanting to deal with it.
 
I don't really think it's a "who's side are you on?" kind of argument here. You have to look a this from both sides. Dawn lost her Mom and her sister in the span of a year. She lost everyone she called family. Then, when Buffy comes back to life (probably the happiest moment in Dawn's life) Buffy looks at her and asks if she's in Hell. Disappointment, much? Then, Buffy shuts her out and doesn't even realize that Dawn's got some unresolved issues surrounding Buffy's death, and the stress of being a teenager.

Then there's Buffy. Sacrificed herself, again, to save the world, and her sister. She was finished. She was happy. She was in heaven. Now, she's been torn back to the Hellmouth, by her friends, to once again face life as the Slayer. She now has to worry about being a mother to Dawn, a provider for her household, and save the world. She's died twice and it never sticks. She feels like a walking shell because she knows what she had, where she could have stayed, and the people she loves most are responsible for her losing all of that. How is she supposed to feel about that?

There are three sides to every story. His side, her side, and what really happened. So you have to look at it from every angle. It's not who's right and who's wrong here, it's more that they didn't open up to each other. Buffy probably didn't think Dawn would understand, and Dawn thought Buffy just didn't care. Or maybe Buffy's like me. I don't like to burden people with my problems. I try to solve them myself.

But I don't think it's as simple as saying you're "Team Dawn" or "Team Buffy" on this one.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Very well said!! :)
G
GrrArghx
[No message]
The Unspoken said:
Didn't that lady from social services issue her a warning in 'Gone'? Objectively speaking, Buffy was being a lousy parent. She left Dawn alone while she was out banging Spike. And let us not speak of the horror that is the squished Doublemeat burger. Thank God Dawn refused it.

At any rate, Dawn's role was ancillary to Buffy's depression arc, and another burden she had to endure after being ripped out of heaven.
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I totally agree... I wasn't a parent at the time Season 5 originally aired, but I became one the following year, during Season 6. I remember watching how Buffy was treating Dawn and thinking "If this was real life, Buffy would be reported for child neglect for leaving her alone all the time." It's true that Dawn is not a baby, but 15-year-olds have no business staying alone in a house all night by themselves, especially if a town is as dangerous as Sunnydale. Not to mention that other than the time Tara cooked pancakes for her, we never see Dawn getting to eat any good, nutritious meals.
It seemed to me that Buffy was so involved in her own stuff she didn't think about Dawn at all most of the time. And like it or not, Buffy was supposed to think of Dawn; she was her primary care giver and it was her job to take care of her the way a parent would.
At the same time, I do realize that Buffy was going through a lot, emotionally, and anyone in their early 20's would probably have some not-so-great parental moments if they were shoved into a situation where they were suddenly someone's parental figure after being so independent for so long. For this reason, I'm able to give her a little bit of a break.

As far as Dawn herself goes, we've talked about it before on the board that she was a lot more immature than Buffy was when we first saw her at 15. But you know, Dawn didn't have the kind of responsibility Buffy had at that age; it's natural for her to be more whiny and silly than Buffy was. At that point in the show, Dawn had been through a lot too, and people seem to think that's not important just because she didn't die the way Buffy had. But you can't discount her feelings and emotions just because Buffy had it a little worse than she did. She was a young kid who had lost her mom, and then gone through losing her sister (who had died to save her life- that's bound to cause her some guilt!) and then getting her back only to be made to feel like her sister wanted to be anywhere but there. It's pretty crappy to say that Dawn had no right to act the way she was in Season 6, because she had plenty of right to be whiny and needy.
 
HisMrs said:
As far as Dawn herself goes, we've talked about it before on the board that she was a lot more immature than Buffy was when we first saw her at 15. But you know, Dawn didn't have the kind of responsibility Buffy had at that age; it's natural for her to be more whiny and silly than Buffy was.
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Willow and Xander didn't have the responsibility Buffy did when we first saw them either. Yet, in Welcome to the Hellmouth and the rest of season 1, even Xander seems more mature than Dawn in season 6. I feel like they made Dawn's character take a step down in maturity during her cries for attention because honestly, in some ways, I feel like she was more mature in season 5. I mean the Dawn of season 5 had more on her plate and whined less. Again, I think it's backlash... when she was the center of the world and had more going on... she dealt with it. But then she wasn't the center of the world anymore and she took that hard. She got used to being the center of attention all the time... and then she just wasn't. So she did whatever she could to get attention... including acting way younger than her age. It makes sense but it drives me nuts.
 
MinwaraYana said:
They both had reasons to behave the way they did. I just don't like when Buffy chose to shag Spike behind the tree while Dawnie was waiting for her burger.

I team Dawn. She lost her mom when she's still young. But I didn't expect Buffy to be a better guardian.
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Well, I sure agree shaging Spike behind a tree and then giving Dawn that flatened burger, but I don't think she chose Spike over Dawn. Also, I think we should go deeper than that.. Buffy was in a tough place at the time.. so should she put herself in the first place and satasfy her needs, or put others in the first place and ignore her needed which would probably lead to her being more depressed. As we saw, Dawn handeled herself because she was sick of eating burgers every night, so I don't think Buffy did anything bad.. it would be a different question if she did what she did with Dawn being 7,8 years younger than she was.
 
At age 15, my mom no longer cooked anything for me. I did it myself. Yeah, she bought the groceries, but it was up to me to fend for myself.

I guess I come from a different perspective. My mom had been leaving us alone since I was 10 (before you judge her, it is legal in Ohio to leave children alone with a babysitter over the age of 12. My older brother.) She worked 3-4 jobs to support us and was hardly ever around. (We won't get into my daddy issues on this subject.) I didn't treat her like Dawn treated Buffy. By the age of 12, I was making meal plans and putting together the shopping lists for my family. Buffy had to grow up early, I had to grow up early, Joyce sheltered Dawn. She didn't want her to have to grow up early, and when it came time for her to actually take that step toward adulthood, she retreated.

I've already stated my flip side views, so I'm really not taking sides here.
 
Z
zobothehobo
exactly.
This sounds like a lot of people wanted Dawn to behave like an ideal teenager . . . namely, do as Buffy says, don't challenge her authority and don't have any temper tantrums. In other words, Dawn is acceptable if only she behaved in an ideal manner, or as a one-dimensional character.


Dawn was not perfect. Neither was Buffy. Both had their flaws and their demons. Buffy was inclined to suppress her feelings and frustrations. Dawn was inclined to let it all hang out. That's it.
 
LadyLavinia said:
This sounds like a lot of people wanted Dawn to behave like an ideal teenager . . . namely, do as Buffy says, don't challenge her authority and don't have any temper tantrums. In other words, Dawn is acceptable if only she behaved in an ideal manner, or as a one-dimensional character.
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This isn't fair to say. She wasn't the "perfect" child in seasons 5 and 7... but I like her then. It's just season 6.
 
zobothehobo said:
because she's the only one that made me want to punch her in the face every single episode.
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Really? the only one?
What about Buffy and how she treated her friends and Spike?
What about Xander for leaving Anya at the altar?
What about Giles leaving Buffy when she's down?
What about Willow who went stupid and almost killed Dawn and her friends?

This season is pretty punch worthy, if you ask me. Still, I could stand Dawn this season, because in some way, she was the sanest one, IMO.
 
Chosen Enemy said:
Really? the only one?
What about Buffy and how she treated her friends and Spike?
What about Xander for leaving Anya at the altar?
What about Giles leaving Buffy when she's down?
What about Willow who went stupid and almost killed Dawn and her friends?

This season is pretty punch worthy, if you ask me. Still, I could stand Dawn this season, because in some way, she was the sanest one, IMO.
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I said every single episode. The others were points in time...

Explain that sanest one? I'm confuzzled...
 
Dawn. And not just because I have a younger sibling. Dawn's been through hell, OK? She's what, 14 in season 5 and let's count it, shall we? She learns that she's not real, her mother passes away, a bitch goddess wants to eviscerate her, there's mass murder, violence and general misery followed by the sacrifice of her sister. And at the beginning of season 6 she's still standing, without resorting to antidepressants, drugs I mean magic or well...sex. Dawn is strong, really strong, like stronger than Buffy strong. When Buff comes back Dawn actually tries to help her, of course our Slayer is too stuck up and immature to tell her what really happened and of course Dawnie learns anyway. Because of a demon, just like she learned her identity in the previous season. At this point, what else can Dawn do, after everything that has happened her sis still doesn't trust her. Not to mention that later in the season the only person that has really been there for her since "The Gift" is shot oh and both Buffy and Willow try to murder her. Guys...back off.
 
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