Buffy vs. Xander Argument - Selfless

ripper666 said:
Good points. But I think we two would have a great discussion about Xander and his love towards Anja. I understand that you don't like Xander very much because of the "marriage", anyway I think he did it because he wanted to protect her from himself after his vision. He didn't want her to life the way his mother had to live! But this is stil another question but you said something interesting about Buffy and Angel:

His "vision" was a fake vision conjured up by a demon. The reality of it is that he didn't want to be tied down. If he was worried that he would become like his father, he should have done everything in his power to not become like him. I mean, he already wasn't like him, all he had to do was maintain that. Sorry, I don't buy the whole "I'm saving you from me" cop out. He was just scared and insecure. Which was confirmed in a later episode.
 
Was Xander a hyprocite? Hell yeah he was! Was he right in sticking up for Anya? Hell yeah he was!

I don't always like the decisions that Xander makes. I think that he can be a right nasty piece of work. In this case? I think he made the right decision. He stuck up for the underdog. He believed that she could be a better person. In my opinion she proved she could.

I think the biggest point of argument here is whether Anya lost her soul or not. I believe that she did not. I believe that Xander had a gut instinct that she could become a better person with some work. He was right....

...But only in this particular case.
 
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Ripper666
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I think, regardless of whether Anya lost her soul or not, she was wrong in what she did. Clearly she was remorseful about killing those people and she wished to sacrifice herself to bring them back, but she'd chosen to become a vengence demon again. And because of that, I not only think Xander was hypocritical but also very self centred. If the demon running round killing innocent people is his ex hunny then Buffy's not allowed to kill them, but if it's Buffy's then she needs to get over her feelings and kill them asap.

I know Buffy and Xander have the most heated arguements out of the Scoobies but for him to start calling her about what she needs to do to cope was hitting a little bit under the belt, in my opinion. Of course Buffy would have to shut out her emotions in order to do her job, killing a friends would be unbelievably difficult on her emotionally.
 
I agree with all points that Xander was in the wrong here and his arguments were of course hypocritical.

But in Xander's defense, Buffy was going to kill the woman he loved. I think, as an audience, we'd have all been puzzled and sort of disgusted with Xander if at that point he'd thrown his hands up and said, "eh, ok, you're right. She is killing people and needs to be stopped. Just give me a sec to say goodbye, ok?"

This is sort of a parallel to Buffy's reaction to Giles in the same season. The main difference of course is that Anya was killing voluntarily and I'd argue with every fiber of my being that Buffy had reason to kill her as opposed to Giles trying to kill Spike who wasn't aware of what he was doing. But the point is: all rational thought and consideration goes out the window in both cases when someone was trying to take out the person they loved. Xander's argument was flawed, certainly, and his assertions were wrong. But as I said, what would we have had him do instead?
 
This is not relevant to your question specifically, but is relevant to that argument in Selfless, but I wish that later they followed up with the bit where Buffy finds out that Xander told Buffy that Willow said "Kick his ass", instead of telling Buffy that Willow was gonna try to do the spell, but they only brought it up and I got excited for a second there the first time I watched it.
 
I don't think Xander was being too hypocritical. Season 2 Buffy felt the same way for a much longer time span. It's not his fault if he had yet to understand what Buffy eventually had to learn in order to deal with Angel. No one in their right mind would simply say "Okay, let's kill my ex-fiance," so to even accuse Xander of being hypocritical simply because there wasn't another option for him to argue isn't fair 😛
 
I think that Buffy really didn't know that Willow wasn't in on the "kick his ass" lie until Selfless. It was probably one of the reasons she really thought she lost everything in Becoming #2, believing that her friends could do that to her.

Buffy didn't just let Angelus walk for four months. The only real clean shot she got at him was two days after losing her virginity to him. Later there were innocents around or something else going on. She couldn't just go to the factory or mansion and stake him. He was formiddable by himself but with Spike, Drusilla, and a horde of minions watching his back, it would've been difficult. Buffy knew she had to kill Angel and prepared herself for it.

Xander never entertained the notion that it would come to that with Anya even though he knew what vengeance demons do.

It was extremely below the belt for Xander to bring Spike into the conversation and to accuse Buffy of being hard, especially given her fears about that.
 
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kndizzle
Total agreement.
I don't think it's wrong for Buffy to even BE hard, seeing as what she went through in season 2 was hard, haha. Plus, Xander and the others (at times) said similar harsh things back in season two to Buffy.


I don't agree with you for most of your second paragraph. Even though "Buffy didn't let Angelus just walk for four months," she still had way more time to process and go through the motions of seeing Angelus as Angelus and not as Angel. Xander had only minutes to do that for Anya because up to that point she had not done anything to piss Buffy off. Saying he's hypocritical logically doesn't seem to fit.
 
You guys remember the huge argument between Buffy & Xander in "Selfless" when Buffy told Xander she had to kill Anya (who was now Anyanka at the time) and Xander doesn't want Buffy to kill Anya because he loves her even though she killed several frat boys and the fact that she chose to be a demon again.

But back in season 2 when Angel was Angelus, Xander hated Angelus/Angel. Both Buffy & Xander were in the exact same situations. Both of their lovers are demons. Now my question is, do you think Xander was a hypocrite trying to excuse Anya's demonic massacre?

The thing that annoyed me about this argument was that Buffy didn't even consider any other option, she went straight to 'lets kill anya', whereas if she had researched it even slightly she would have learnt that you didn't need to kill her, but merely destroy her power source, like in wish, to reverse the wish.
 
EvilWillow said:
His "vision" was a fake vision conjured up by a demon.

Yeah it was a vision but it opened him his worst nightmare: He saw how he treated Anja. He treated her like his dad treats his mom. Fake or not you have to digest such a vision. He was shocked and he just wanted the best for her! Some seconds to think about would have been ok in my eyses. I agree that he didn't handle the vision the best way but I understand his reasons and in my opinion he did it because he loved Anja so much! Anja didn't saw what he saw and so she has the right to be angry with him. He should have opened his feelings for her more and explained her his fears. Than the marriage would have been possible. But to open his feelings to another person is not always as easy as it sounds and Xander always had problems with his feelings.
 
Yeah it was a vision but it opened him his worst nightmare: He saw how he treated Anja. He treated her like his dad treats his mom. Fake or not you have to digest such a vision. He was shocked and he just wanted the best for her! Some seconds to think about would have been ok in my eyses. I agree that he didn't handle the vision the best way but I understand his reasons and in my opinion he did it because he loved Anja so much! Anja didn't saw what he saw and so she has the right to be angry with him. He should have opened his feelings for her more and explained her his fears. Than the marriage would have been possible. But to open his feelings to another person is not always as easy as it sounds and Xander always had problems with his feelings.

He should have been a man and done everything he possibly could to be the husband that AnYa deserved. He gave up. He was nothing like his father and all he had to do was make sure that he stayed that way. It was a dumb move on his part. He was a quitter and a coward.
 
He should have been a man and done everything he possibly could to be the husband that AnYa deserved. He gave up. He was nothing like his father and all he had to do was make sure that he stayed that way. It was a dumb move on his part. He was a quitter and a coward.

"Anja" is the German spelling of it. Pointing it out like that is a little rude.
 
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EvilWillow
Oh, I didnt notice that. :P
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Ripper666
oh, never noticed that it's Anya. Well from now on you won't read the german-translation ;D
"Anja" is the German spelling of it. Pointing it out like that is a little rude.

How was I being rude? How was I supposed to know where the guy is from? It's not like we are in the same dorm or anything...

I was just trying to help the dude out with spelling. Sorry, [MENTION=11629]Ripper666[/MENTION]
 
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Cast No Shadow
The same way I know you're from Phoenix, AZ :) It says so on the left. Kudos for apologising to him.
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Ripper666
No sorry, I am sorry, never realized I write the name "wrong". I will pay attention now!
This has nothing to do with the main topic, I just wanted to say a thanks to [MENTION=11317]Cast No Shadow[/MENTION] for having so much understanding. 🙂Your post made me really happy!
And thanks to [MENTION=11641]EvilWillow[/MENTION] for the tip and the excuse. ;D
 
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EvilWillow
haha whatev ;)
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Cast No Shadow
[No message]
ok so xander is the only one who makes mistakes? Is he the only one that cant be forgiven? I think not. Holy cow I mean every single person in the buffy verse and the angel verse has made horrible choices and done something wrong. Yet its always xander this and xander that. Maybe its bc he human maybe its bc in alot of peoples eyes since he is human hes not special to them like angel or spike.
 
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