Buffy/Xander/Willow: Perfect Friendship?

[TheVoid68]

I very much disagree with Icarium's comments RE: S5 Spike. He genuinely did a good thing in "Intervention", and leaving the flowers for Joyce was a wonderful moment, the last time in the series Spike did something that wasn't entirely centred around Buffy. But I don't blame Xander for doubting him, it's understandable. Spike did spend the majority of S5 trying to get Buffy's attention by doing good things. And remember Primeval?

"You just saved us so we wouldn't kill you right here, didn't you?"
"Well, yeah. Did it work?"

Xander was making a fair judgement based on solid evidence, he just happened to be wrong.

 

[Kelsey]

I very much disagree with Icarium's comments RE: S5 Spike. He genuinely did a good thing in "Intervention", and leaving the flowers for Joyce was a wonderful moment, the last time in the series Spike did something that wasn't entirely centred around Buffy. But I don't blame Xander for doubting him, it's understandable. Spike did spend the majority of S5 trying to get Buffy's attention by doing good things. And remember Primeval?

"You just saved us so we wouldn't kill you right here, didn't you?"
"Well, yeah. Did it work?"

Xander was making a fair judgement based on solid evidence, he just happened to be wrong.

Damn, hit enter too soon. I don't blame Xander as much in that instance. It's later that his attitude really, really starts to bother me.

 

[Icarium]

He explicitly states later in the episode that he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he hurt Buffy by letting something happen to Dawn. Also, Glory probably would've let him go if he'd just told her. They're both evil, remember? Why would she want to kill him? It's also really farfetched to say he -wanted- to bump into Xander and Willow, it seemed pretty clear that he was going to leave his flowers and go.

Spike says a lot of things and very often he contradicts himself. In School Hard he mocks Angel and his "Anne Rice routine", in S5 he is pretty much living like as an Anne Rice vampire caricature. In Becoming he claims he wants to save the world but leaves Buffy on her own when Angel seemed to be winning and runs away (one wonders where he is running to, btw, this has always bugged me). The very last thing I would expect from him is to be honest with Buffy, especially when he has a lot to gain by lying. I am sure Jane "Spuffy is a gorgeous love story" Espenson wanted the viewers to believe Spike's speech from Intervention but I'd rather follow my own interpretation since it doesn't contradicts the events shown on screen, thank you very much.

Like Vengeance said, you have to take the good with the bad when it comes to Spike. Xander never did, and it's part of what made me dislike him so much in the later seasons. He was bigoted.

Spike has killed thousands of people. Can you honestly claim that you would treat someone like that as just another guy or even cut him any slack? Xander has already cut Spike a lot of slack by not dusting him. It boggles my mind that Xander is called bigot for not seeing vampires as cuddly. Why don't you call Buffy a bigot for indiscriminately killing vamps on sight (except when they had a plot shield like Spike)? Every character in the show treats vampires different than humans but somehow only Xander gets branded a bigot. Okay then...

 

[Vengeance]

The very last thing I would expect from him is to be honest with Buffy, especially when he has a lot to gain by lying.

But he thinks it is the bot. What would lying to the bot accomplish?

 

[Kelsey]

Spike has killed thousands of people. Can you honestly claim that you would treat someone like that as just another guy or even cut him any slack? Xander has already cut Spike a lot of slack by not dusting him. It boggles my mind that Xander is called bigot for not seeing vampires as cuddly. Why don't you call Buffy a bigot for indiscriminately killing vamps on sight (except when they had a plot shield like Spike)? Every character in the show treats vampires different than humans but somehow only Xander gets branded a bigot. Okay then...

Obviously we have a very different opinion on Spike, so this will be less a debate than an argument if we keep going. Since I'm not fond of those, I'd rather not. However, to answer your question, both Angel and Spike were not simply vampires on the show. They were not just big bads or people Buffy dusted. As such, they became characters, and characters have to develop and grow or else they serve no purpose. Because of that, I don't just view them as "those two vampire guys."

As far as Xander, he couldn't shift his views to fit the circumstances--he was too held back by his prejudices. It's not just about Spike, either. It was his attitude toward Buffy because of her affair with Spike; he had absolutely no right to treat her the way he did. He was so unaccepting and judgemental. He treated Anya exactly the same. "I can't even look at you because you let that evil, soulless thing touch you." Nice words from a man who left her at the altar. In that situation, both Spike and Anya were hurting and looking for comfort, and Spike didn't deserve to have Xander trying to kill him for it.

Plus, Anya was a demon for a thousand years and killed and tortured men. She reverted back to a demon in S7, and before then she had never once shown remorse for a single one of her victims. But no, it's absolutely fine because it's Xander dating her and not Buffy. Also, it's completely acceptable to forgive Willow, who killed Warren and nearly destroyed the earth. Everyone's allowed a huge death toll, it seems, but vampires. That is bigotry.

 

[Icarium]

But he thinks it is the bot. What would lying to the bot accomplish?

Spike can supposedly smell Buffy across town (see First Date). Either he is really stupid and ignoring what his nose tells him or he knows that this is the real Buffy. Plus, Spike is such a drama queen and a poseur that I can totally see him lying to the bot or even to himself, Andrew-style. Once he is safe, he convinces himself he resisted torture for the noble reasons, just as he convinced himself that him fighting Slayers was like a dance for them or that he and Dru had great love never mind her having sex with "Daddy" Angel.

Plus, Anya was a demon for a thousand years and killed and tortured men. She reverted back to a demon in S7, and before then she had never once shown remorse for a single one of her victims. But no, it's absolutely fine because it's Xander dating her and not Buffy. Also, it's completely acceptable to forgive Willow, who killed Warren and nearly destroyed the earth. Everyone's allowed a huge death toll, it seems, but vampires. That is bigotry.

No, it's not, it's the very opposite of bigotry. If Xander hated all demons and vampires he never would have hooked up with Anya in the first place or invited a bunch of demons to his own wedding. He was being extremely hypocritical, not a bigot.

 

[Kelsey]

No, it's not, it's the very opposite of bigotry. If Xander hated all demons and vampires he never would have hooked up with Anya in the first place or invited a bunch of demons to his own wedding. He was being extremely hypocritical, not a bigot

Depends on if you're trying to split vampires into a completely separate catagory from demons, which it what I was doing. It's a fine line to try and distinguish either way. But yes, he was very hypocritical.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't understand why Xander is always accused of being a bigot. I think his reasons for disliking both Angel and Spike to be understandable and aren't solely about who they are. Xander lost his best friend in the first episode; Jesse turned into a vampire and got staked by Xander. "I don't like vampires." Because of what happened to Jesse. His reasons for disliking Angel had more to do with Buffy choosing him over Xander than about Angel being a vampire. His reasons for disliking Spike were more about what Spike had done and is capable of doing without a soul, it's really hard to trust a soulless vampire and I don't blame Xander or Buffy for being wary.

If Xander was a bigot, he wouldn't have dated Anya, wouldn't have been friends with Oz, wouldn't have agreed to invite Anya's demon friends to his wedding and defending them against his father, wouldn't have defended Angel when Kendra suggested killing him, wouldn't have saved Spike from falling brick in the ruined high school in Doomed, wouldn't have been fine with Clem and Spike being invited to Buffy's birthday party... etc.

 

[Kelsey]

If Xander was a bigot, he wouldn't have dated Anya, wouldn't have been friends with Oz, wouldn't have agreed to invite Anya's demon friends to his wedding and defending them against his father, wouldn't have defended Angel when Kendra suggested killing him, wouldn't have saved Spike from falling brick in the ruined high school in Doomed, wouldn't have been fine with Clem and Spike being invited to Buffy's birthday party... etc.

Ah, I can see I'm outnumbered. =P

As I said before, I was separating vampires into a different species althogether. Xander is accepting of demons, he's accepting of ex-demons (even those that spent 1,000 years torturing men), he's accepting of witches (even those that tried to destroy the world), etc, etc, etc, but he is not accepting of vampires no matter the circumstances. That's more or less the basis of my argument. And let me just say before you try to poke holes in it with this: I've actually decided I like S7 Xander, and that he showed a lot of growth and less hypocrisy. This doesn't address him as much.

 

[Icarium]

As I said before, I was separating vampires into a different species althogether. Xander is accepting of demons, he's accepting of ex-demons (even those that spent 1,000 years torturing men), he's accepting of witches (even those that tried to destory the world), etc, etc, etc, but he is not accepting of vampires no matter the circumstances.

Watch "Disharmony". It shows superbly why people shouldn't treat soulless vampires as if they were still human. Not one of Xander's friends treats soulless vamps as anything but a threat or a tool (in Spike's case), even Dawn woke up and smelled the threat when she learned about the attempted rape. Yet Xander somehow gets singled out for reasons I can't fathom. Also, it's not as if Xander is the only one who accepts Anya and Willow, the writers were just obsessed with redemption stories, so everybody had to accept the ex-villains and move on with barely a protest...

 

[Kelsey]

Watch "Disharmony". It shows superbly why people shouldn't treat soulless vampires as if they were still human. Not one of Xander's friends treats soulless vamps as anything but a threat or a tool (in Spike's case), even Dawn woke up and smelled the threat when she learned about the attempted rape. Yet Xander somehow gets singled out for reasons I can't fathom. Also, it's not as if Xander is the only one who accepts Anya and Willow, the writers were just obsessed with redemption stories, so everybody had to accept the ex-villains and move on with barely a protest...

Well, trust me, this happens with a lot of characters. I'm a big Spike fan, and I've seen how much blame and condemnation gets heaped on him. Not that he doesn't deserve criticism, but it's exactly the same as you're saying; Spike gets singled out over other characters who have some of the same flaws and crimes.

Maybe Xander's behavior just really struck a chord with me and made me dislike him. Perhaps "bigot" is a strong word, but passion usually leads to strong words, and I passionately dislike a lot of Xander's actions.

 

[Vengeance]

Spike can supposedly smell Buffy across town (see First Date). Either he is really stupid and ignoring what his nose tells him or he knows that this is the real Buffy. Plus, Spike is such a drama queen and a poseur that I can totally see him lying to the bot or even to himself, Andrew-style. Once he is safe, he convinces himself he resisted torture for the noble reasons, just as he convinced himself that him fighting Slayers was like a dance for them or that he and Dru had great love never mind her having sex with "Daddy" Angel.

If you're that determined not to see any redemptive qualities in presoul Spike I'm just going to give up. I guess I can see why you identify with Xander so much.

 

[sosa lola]

As I said before, I was separating vampires into a different species althogether. Xander is accepting of demons, he's accepting of ex-demons (even those that spent 1,000 years torturing men), he's accepting of witches (even those that tried to destroy the world), etc, etc, etc, but he is not accepting of vampires no matter the circumstances. That's more or less the basis of my argument. And let me just say before you try to poke holes in it with this: I've actually decided I like S7 Xander, and that he showed a lot of growth and less hypocrisy. This doesn't address him as much.

There's a difference between Xander disliking Spike and Angel as individuals and disliking them for their vampirism. While I think the characters should always be wary of vampires and that it's a mistake to treat vampires as humans, Angel and Spike are not like other vampires. Angel has a soul and Spike has the chip (and later a soul.)

Xander's reaction to Vamp Willow and Vamp Buffy shows that he doesn't have a vampire-hate or that he's a bigot. He has reasons to dislike Angel and Spike and they weren't solely about them being vampires. He'd saved and helped save Angel and Spike plenty of times and no one pushed him to do that but his good nature. So, I'm mainly objecting over Xander being a bigot and not about him having the right to be a jerk to Angel and Spike when they don't deserve it.