Buffy's a B*t*h!

[Kana]

Buffy has always been jealous of Faith. Faith gets to play the wild girl life whilst Buffy is stuck in her good girl, responsible slayer shoes. Also, there's the whole sex thing; Faith is able to act on impulse and can have anyone, Buffy can't seem to get anyone to stick around. Faith even manages to sleep with Riley, and Buffy thinks she and Angel are far to close when she storms in. She's incredibly jealous. She knows what a crappy life Faith has, but it doesn't stop her from being jealous - the same goes for Faith regarding Buffy.

Then again, if you can't see that Buffy was jealous of Faith throughout, maybe you were watching a different show.

Mostly disagree. Buffy only really resented having a second slayer about in the beginning. After that she tried to embrace her.

I think they both learned a little from each other. In Bad Girls, Buffy initially embraces Faith's want take, have philosophy but when things go too far, Buffy freaks. There may be certain elements of Buffy that can be seen as repressed but she is a very moral girl. She believes Faith is doing THE WRONG THING.

Also she never really had Angel or Riley. Buffy felt a little insecure about Faith's experience but I doubt having empty sex with guys is the sort of lifestyle Buffy wants. She emotionally beat herself up about her relationship with Spike in Season 6 lest we forget.

I think they learned from each other though. Buffy taps into that primal side of the Slayer in Buffy Vs Dracula and Faith begins to listen to her conscience.

I'd overall say that Faith was more jealous of Buffy overall and often rationalised her actions. Buffy's actions/feelings toward Faith were partially reactionary, to do with her strong morals and, yes, there is a element of control there as well or at least hating to lose control.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Mostly disagree. Buffy only really resented having a second slayer about in the beginning. After that she tried to embrace her.

I think they both learned a little from each other. In Bad Girls, Buffy initially embraces Faith's want take, have philosophy but when things go too far, Buffy freaks. There may be certain elements of Buffy that can be seen as repressed but she is a very moral girl. She believes Faith is doing THE WRONG THING.

Also she never really had Angel or Riley. Buffy felt a little insecure about Faith's experience but I doubt having empty sex with guys is the sort of lifestyle Buffy wants. She emotionally beat herself up about her relationship with Spike in Season 6 lest we forget.

I think they learned from each other though. Buffy taps into that primal side of the Slayer in Buffy Vs Dracula and Faith begins to listen to her conscience.

I'd overall say that Faith was more jealous of Buffy overall and often rationalised her actions. Buffy's actions/feelings toward Faith were partially reactionary, to do with her strong morals and, yes, there is a element of control there as well or at least hating to lose control.

I agree that Faith was more jealous of Buffy, but I still see Buffy as jealous of Faith too. Jealosy isn't rational or logical, Buffy realises that Faith's choices are bad. She doesn't want to be "bad," I suppose it's more the fact that Faith is free to make those choices that Buffy wants. Faith, even in jail, always has an air of freedom about her, whereas Buffy is stuck down being the "proper" slayer - which is ironic considering on the whole cosmic scale of things, Faith is the "proper" slayer, at least till The Gift where it gets all confusing. I'm not saying jealousy is Buffy's only motivation to take Faith down in this ep, or even that it is her primary one, but I do still contest that it is definately there.

 

[Harm]

I love the way she acts. Angel thinks he's so cool at the end and Buffy's like "uhhhh..."

 

[caitaintdead]

Eunsoma??? they aint left a message

Right above your karma comment on my post eunsoma left a message as well saying that he/she likes Faith. In reply to your other question, if we are discussing how Buffy acts when dealing with Faith then I think it is of high importance for us to also look at Faith as a character as well as just Buffy as a character.

It seems that it is always far to easy for people to point out the flaws in Buffy's character, despite, in my opinion, Faith being a lot nastier. Faith being horrible is what led Buffy being upset.

 

[Angel's vision]

People and Buffy seem to miss the point here liking Faith is a matter of personal opinion, and they are not saying they liked what Faith did, maybe they are seeing like Angel saw a messed up girl who couldn't handle one accidental kill, so she hid from the turmoil of it and went down that dark road because the pain stopped, then Buffy stabbed her after Faith poisoned Angel so she would help cure him, Faith fell into a passing truck, I felt at this point two wrongs don't make a right, Buffy should not of stabbed her, and when Faith woke up, she wanted to screw Buffy-understandable, but her actions like body swapping were wrong too. Buffy was understandably pissed, BUT Faith then tries to engineer her death by agreeing to kill Angel and play this game where she gets him to kill her, Angel see's this as a final escape from her pain that is finally so much she wants out, she see's herself as a nothing, because maybe she was told this so many times by her drunk mother, she had no love and just saw her actions as proof of what she felt about herself, Angel helps by seeing to it that HE can help her to see that she can be good and because he felt all this aswell he can only offer that much needed support.

Buffy can't see this, because she has never been there, and because of what Faith did, it blinds her to see what is REALLY happening, Faith is trying to redeem herself. Angel saw and I saw a hurting girl who is messed up and needs love and redemption, and is seeking it, It is hard NOT to feel some sorrow for her.

It isn't all in black and white, anfd maybe when Buffy was trying to help Faith it was not the right timing and then when things went bad she GAVE UP on Faith.
Angel was the only person who could help, the last thing he wanted was an angry girl trying to STOP him.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

People and Buffy seem to miss the point here liking Faith is a matter of personal opinion, and they are not saying they liked what Faith did, maybe they are seeing like Angel saw a messed up girl who couldn't handle one accidental kill, so she hid from the turmoil of it and went down that dark road because the pain stopped, then Buffy stabbed her after Faith poisoned Angel so she would help cure him, Faith fell into a passing truck, I felt at this point two wrongs don't make a right, Buffy should not of stabbed her, a , but her actions like body swapping were wrong too. Buffy was understandably pissed, BUT Faith then tries to engineer her death by agreeing to kill Angel and play this game where she gets him to kill her, Angel see's this as a final escape from her pain that is finally so much she wants out, she see's herself as a nothing, because maybe she was told this so many times by her drunk mother, she had no love and just saw her actions as proof of what she felt about herself, Angel helps by seeing to it that HE can help her to see that she can be good and because he felt all this aswell he can only offer that much needed support.

Buffy can't see this, because she has never been there, and because of what Faith did, it blinds her to see what is REALLY happening, Faith is trying to redeem herself. Angel saw and I saw a hurting girl who is messed up and needs love and redemption, and is seeking it, It is hard NOT to feel some sorrow for her.

It isn't all in black and white, anfd maybe when Buffy was trying to help Faith it was not the right timing and then when things went bad she GAVE UP on Faith.
Angel was the only person who could help, the last thing he wanted was an angry girl trying to STOP him.

I think I got a little distracted from the point when you said and when Faith woke up, she wanted to screw Buffy-understandable ;P I do pretty much agree with you though; some people cant seperate liking a character as a construct and liking a character as a person - like what Rowan was saying. I love Faith as a character because of the journey she goes on, but it doesn't mean I think what she did was right or that I would like to be in her life.

I also agree about Buffy giving up on Faith, and I understand why she did it, but it's the way she did it that I dislike her for. As a person and not a construct, of course. God....I'm confusing myself now.....

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well, we also need to understand that here was a girl whom Buffy had tried to help, and in return had:

* framed Buffy for a killing that Faith committed, accidentally or not,
* nearly killed Angel, and was at one time or another on the verge of killing Willow, Xander, and Joyce (all by her own hand,) if not for other people's intervention,
* chose to help the mayor in attempting to kill all of them plus the entire graduating class,
* and stole Buffy's own body, which nearly got Buffy killed again.

So then, when Faith reappears, Buffy is pretty much told to piss off and mind her own business. And people have a problem with the way Buffy reacted? Buffy could have let the Watchers' Council hitmen have her - it would have been that "poetic justice" Faith tried to reference in "Who Are You," but instead she helped save Faith's ass. She's a better person than I am...

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

So then, when Faith reappears, Buffy is pretty much told to piss off and mind her own business.

That's not quite true though. Buffy refuses to trust Angel, despite the fact that he is the only person who has ever had a positive influence on her. What she does in this episode is tantamount to what Wesley did originally. Plus - one person in the world she should trust when it comes to seeking redemption: Angel. I understand the attacks on Faith, but she is unjustly bitchy to Angel. First she hits him, then she lashes out and tries to hurt him because she's feeling so bad. All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says. She was exactly the same in I Will Remember You, when he had been in Sunnydale and it had been painful for her. Selective amnesia, much? 😀

 

[Kana]

I agree that Faith was more jealous of Buffy, but I still see Buffy as jealous of Faith too. Jealosy isn't rational or logical, Buffy realises that Faith's choices are bad. She doesn't want to be "bad," I suppose it's more the fact that Faith is free to make those choices that Buffy wants. Faith, even in jail, always has an air of freedom about her, whereas Buffy is stuck down being the "proper" slayer - which is ironic considering on the whole cosmic scale of things, Faith is the "proper" slayer, at least till The Gift where it gets all confusing. I'm not saying jealousy is Buffy's only motivation to take Faith down in this ep, or even that it is her primary one, but I do still contest that it is definately there.

I still don't think Buffy's envy of Faith's freedom is anywhere in the domain of Faith's resentment. I honestly don't think Buffy would want to make those choices. She could only slip into the path a little when she came back from hell but even then her moral fibre didn't allow her to fully enjoy it. I would say it was how Faith treated her and her morals that are mostly guiding her. Any 'jealousy' was mostly reactive to the situation.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

That's not quite true though. Buffy refuses to trust Angel, despite the fact that he is the only person who has ever had a positive influence on her. What she does in this episode is tantamount to what Wesley did originally. Plus - one person in the world she should trust when it comes to seeking redemption: Angel. I understand the attacks on Faith, but she is unjustly bitchy to Angel. First she hits him, then she lashes out and tries to hurt him because she's feeling so bad. All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says. She was exactly the same in I Will Remember You, when he had been in Sunnydale and it had been painful for her. Selective amnesia, much? 😀

Well, apparently on *one* of our parts:

--- Buffy's first sight of Angel and Faith ---
Angel: "Hey. Hey. Hey. Shh. Hey. (Leads her over to the day bed) Sit down. Shh. It's- it's okay. (Faith wraps her arms around Angel's neck, careful not to touch him with her bloody hands) Hey. It's gonna be okay. Okay? (Angel holds her) Shh. Alright."
Angel looks over as he hears someone come down the stairs. It's Buffy.
Angel gets up: "Buffy. (Buttoning his shirt) I didn't know you..."
Buffy: "What..."
Buffy looks from him to Faith still sitting on the day bed staring at her bloody hands, then back to Angel.
Buffy: "How... What are you doing?"
Angel: "She - we were attacked."
Buffy: "We? - You and..."
Angel: "Faith."
Buffy: "You and Faith."
Angel: "Oh, it's not what you think."
Buffy: "You actually think that I can form a thought right now? - Giles heard that - that she tried to kill you."
Angel: "That's true."
Buffy: "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
Angel: "Is that why you're here? To punish her?"
Buffy: "I was worried about you."

--- Oh, but, hey, there's a good and full explanation coming. Or, y'know - not ---
Faith: "Buffy. (Buffy looks at her) Oh, god."
Buffy walks closer to Faith who is cringing away form her.
Buffy: "You didn't think I was going to find you, did you?"
Angel: "Buffy, let's talk."
Buffy: "Oh, I don't think talk is in order right now."
Angel: "She needs help."
Buffy whips around to face Angel: "Help? Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: "Do you care?"
Angel: "She wants to change. She has a chance to..."
Buffy: "No. No chance. Jail."
Faith slowly gets up.
Angel: "You think that'll help?"
Faith: "Buffy... (Buffy whips around to face her) I'm sor..."
Buffy: "Apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
Faith quietly: "Go ahead."
Angel steps in front of Faith: "This is not gonna happen."
Buffy: "You're gonna stop me? Because you're gonna have to."
Faith shakes her head: "Don't - so this."
Angel: "Faith, go upstairs - now."
Buffy: "You think I'm gonna let her out of my sight?"
Angel: "Buffy, just back off."
Buffy: "There is no way I'm letting her out of my sight."
Angel: "Faith, go!"
Faith goes up the stairs and Buffy moves to stop her.

--- Leading up to Buffy's punching Angel when ---
Buffy: "Don't you move a..."
Angel catches her arm and she turns to punch him full in the face. She hauls back to hit him again, but Angel blocks her fist and hits her across the face in return.
Angel steps back as Buffy stares at him with a hand over her mouth.
Angel: "I'm sorry. - I'm sorry."
----------------------

So, let's see: Buffy hears from Giles that Faith (who already tried to kill Angel and all the rest of them on more than one occasion,) has made another attempt on Angel, so she goes down to L.A. to help. Notice that, unlike Angel in "Pangs", she didn't skulk around behind his back - she went straight to him. And what does she find but Faith in his arms. Bzzt! Strike one for the trust issue.

"Do you know what she did to me?"
"Yes."
"Do you care?"
"She wants to change--" Bzzt! Strike two for "trust". Here's a tip, Angel: if the love of your life asks, "Do you care?" you say, "YES!" It doesn't matter what the frickin' subject is. Especially if she just caught you hugging the woman who tried to kill her, frame her, steal two of her boyfriends - oh, and her actual frickin' body!

At this point, Angel is trying to separate the two of them, but there's no way in hell it could look to Buffy like anything but taking Faith's side against her. And then he grabs Buffy when she starts after Faith. Bzzt! Strike three... Boy, he's been out of touch with people too long; he'd have gotten hit if this had been two normal women, let alone these two.

--- And for the icing on Buffy's cake ---
Buffy and Angel are standing alone in the hallway of the police station.
Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."
Angel: "I didn't - I didn't think it was your business."
Buffy: "Not my business?"
Angel: "I needed more time with Faith. I'm not sure.."
Buffy: "You needed - Do you have any - idea what it was like for me to see you with her? That you went behind my back..."
Angel: "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. - That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other."
Buffy: "I came here because you were in danger."
Angel: "I'm in danger every day. You came because of Faith. You were looking for vengeance."
Buffy: "I have a right to it."
Angel: "Not in my city."
Buffy turns away for a moment then turns back.
Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. (Angel looks away from her but otherwise doesn't move) That I love. (Angel swallows hard) It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."
Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"
Buffy looks at him for a moment then goes to pick up her jacket, while Angel walks over to the wall and braces his hands against it.
Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."
--------------------------------

All Angel had done was tell her that this was his town, and she shouldn't be coming in and not listening to what he says.

Well, that was after the fact, and even then it's not all that he did or said.

Up there's the relevant parts of the transcript. What was that about selective amnesia, again? : popcorn:

 

[SoBlind]

ah I must agree D: I really hate the end of Sanctuary when she acts like that. I was so happy when Angel yelled at her haha.

me too! i thought she deserved everything he said to her. and i think it was time for someone to do it. in sunnydale shes always the leader, always has the last word. then she goes to LA trying to do the same with angel and he basically told her how far she can go with him..that this wasnt her business anymore. i loved the episode in general tho. one of my favourites. i really liked all the conversations between buffy and angel:

Buffy: "Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: *startled* "Do you care?"

also, in that episode, especially at the end, u can really see how they're both trying to pretend in front of the other one. i really liked that. for buffy it was her saying that what she had with riley was really new because she can "trust him" and she "knows him". please! she trusted angel more than anything. and at the same time angel said "[..]you don't know me anymore so don't come down here with your great new life[..]"

such a typical thing between ex's. pretending the other one doesnt know a thing about u anymore just to make it easier.

great episode. but yes, buffy was being a bitch

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, apparently on *one* of our parts:

--- Buffy's first sight of Angel and Faith ---
Angel: "Hey. Hey. Hey. Shh. Hey. (Leads her over to the day bed) Sit down. Shh. It's- it's okay. (Faith wraps her arms around Angel's neck, careful not to touch him with her bloody hands) Hey. It's gonna be okay. Okay? (Angel holds her) Shh. Alright."
Angel looks over as he hears someone come down the stairs. It's Buffy.
Angel gets up: "Buffy. (Buttoning his shirt) I didn't know you..."
Buffy: "What..."
Buffy looks from him to Faith still sitting on the day bed staring at her bloody hands, then back to Angel.
Buffy: "How... What are you doing?"
Angel: "She - we were attacked."
Buffy: "We? - You and..."
Angel: "Faith."
Buffy: "You and Faith."
Angel: "Oh, it's not what you think."
Buffy: "You actually think that I can form a thought right now? - Giles heard that - that she tried to kill you."
Angel: "That's true."
Buffy: "So you decided to punish her with a severe cuddling."
Angel: "Is that why you're here? To punish her?"
Buffy: "I was worried about you."


--- Oh, but, hey, there's a good and full explanation coming. Or, y'know - not ---
Faith: "Buffy. (Buffy looks at her) Oh, god."
Buffy walks closer to Faith who is cringing away form her.
Buffy: "You didn't think I was going to find you, did you?"
Angel: "Buffy, let's talk."
Buffy: "Oh, I don't think talk is in order right now."
Angel: "She needs help."
Buffy whips around to face Angel: "Help? Do you have any idea what she did to me?"
Angel: "Yes."
Buffy: "Do you care?"
Angel: "She wants to change. She has a chance to..."
Buffy: "No. No chance. Jail."
Faith slowly gets up.
Angel: "You think that'll help?"
Faith: "Buffy... (Buffy whips around to face her) I'm sor..."
Buffy: "Apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
Faith quietly: "Go ahead."
Angel steps in front of Faith: "This is not gonna happen."
Buffy: "You're gonna stop me? Because you're gonna have to."
Faith shakes her head: "Don't - so this."
Angel: "Faith, go upstairs - now."
Buffy: "You think I'm gonna let her out of my sight?"
Angel: "Buffy, just back off."
Buffy: "There is no way I'm letting her out of my sight."
Angel: "Faith, go!"
Faith goes up the stairs and Buffy moves to stop her.

--- Leading up to Buffy's punching Angel when ---
Buffy: "Don't you move a..."
Angel catches her arm and she turns to punch him full in the face. She hauls back to hit him again, but Angel blocks her fist and hits her across the face in return.
Angel steps back as Buffy stares at him with a hand over her mouth.
Angel: "I'm sorry. - I'm sorry."
----------------------

So, let's see: Buffy hears from Giles that Faith (who already tried to kill Angel and all the rest of them on more than one occasion,) has made another attempt on Angel, so she goes down to L.A. to help. Notice that, unlike Angel in "Pangs", she didn't skulk around behind his back - she went straight to him. And what does she find but Faith in his arms. Bzzt! Strike one for the trust issue.

I'm sorry, but that's entirely Buffy's problem. She knows Angel well enough to know that he wouldn't be getting all cuddles with Faith if she wasn't in need, or at least wasn't trying to kill him. And it's not as if they were doing anything, her hands are quite clearly covered in blood. It's Buffy's jealousy that is rising - she remembers what Faith did with Riley, and now she sees her in Angel's arms. She refuses to even listen to him! She even knows that trying to imprison a PO'd Faith is not a good option.

"Do you know what she did to me?"
"Yes."
"Do you care?"
"She wants to change--" Bzzt! Strike two for "trust". Here's a tip, Angel: if the love of your life asks, "Do you care?" you say, "YES!" It doesn't matter what the frickin' subject is. Especially if she just caught you hugging the woman who tried to kill her, frame her, steal two of her boyfriends - oh, and her actual frickin' body!

Yeah, Angel is a bit clueless when it comes to that human interaction thing! And does nobody think it weird that Buffy just went waltzing into his place? Was their anyone around to let her in? This is just a random side question btw, not an argument.

At this point, Angel is trying to separate the two of them, but there's no way in hell it could look to Buffy like anything but taking Faith's side against her. And then he grabs Buffy when she starts after Faith. Bzzt! Strike three... Boy, he's been out of touch with people too long; he'd have gotten hit if this had been two normal women, let alone these two.

I totally agree that that is what it would look like to Buffy, and I can understand why she hit him, but it is her complete unwillingness to listen that I take issue with. Why, when Angel is the only person to ever make headway with Faith does Buffy find it so difficult to trust him, or even to see that he is not choosing anyone and is just trying to stop Faith from tipping over the edge again? I understand that you feel it's because Buffy has given Faith every chance and doesn't think she deserves it, but I still believe that she is jealous - especially when she sees Angel being nicer to Faith than he was last time they met (which is wonderfully ironic considering that was I Will Remember You).

--- And for the icing on Buffy's cake ---
Buffy and Angel are standing alone in the hallway of the police station.
Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."
Angel: "I didn't - I didn't think it was your business."
Buffy: "Not my business?"
Angel: "I needed more time with Faith. I'm not sure.."
Buffy: "You needed - Do you have any - idea what it was like for me to see you with her? That you went behind my back..."
Angel: "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it. - That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other."
Buffy: "I came here because you were in danger."
Angel: "I'm in danger every day. You came because of Faith. You were looking for vengeance."
Buffy: "I have a right to it."
Angel: "Not in my city."
Buffy turns away for a moment then turns back.
Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. (Angel looks away from her but otherwise doesn't move) That I love. (Angel swallows hard) It's not what you and I had. - It's very new. (She steps closer) You know what makes it new? - I trust him. - I know him."
Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!"
Buffy looks at him for a moment then goes to pick up her jacket, while Angel walks over to the wall and braces his hands against it.
Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."

But, this is exactly what I mean, Buffy is unjustly coming in, and thinking that it's her business. It really isn't. Fine, she wanted to protect Angel, but her primary motive for coming was vengance. Not so good. You would think at this point she would have realised that it's much more important to save Faith's soul than to extract personal revenge and push her over the edge. Angel has given her no reason not to trust him. I can understand the upset in the heat of the moment at the beginning, but seriously, the trust line was uncalled for. She did it to hurt Angel because of how she felt about Faith not him, and it was completely unfair.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

At this point, she still has no particular reason to believe that Faith's soul can be saved, or that Faith even really wants it saved. Buffy's entire experience with the girl has been disastrous; Faith lied and betrayed Buffy's trust repeatedly - and Buffy's supposed to just accept BAM! oh, she's changed, just like that? Get real.

 

[Bluebird]

I think, regardless if Buffy was right in this situation, it is written in such a way that you side with Angel cos it's his show. Buffy was right in coming after Faith but it was her stubborn attitude of I'm right, you're wrong towards Angel that made her come across as the bad guy here. We, as the Angel audience, have already seen Faith's breakdown in the alley and know she wants to change so when Buffy comes into the scene you end up siding with Angel.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

At this point, she still has no particular reason to believe that Faith's soul can be saved, or that Faith even really wants it saved. Buffy's entire experience with the girl has been disastrous; Faith lied and betrayed Buffy's trust repeatedly - and Buffy's supposed to just accept BAM! oh, she's changed, just like that? Get real.

Perhaps not, but what's her solution? Cart her off to jail? There is no way that would have worked. It just made things worse last time.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

It usually makes things worse with real-life criminals, too, but the solution isn't to just let them go and hope they decide to do better, next time - they usually do, but it's better from the standpoint of being a better criminal. I notice that Faith's solution was also for her to go to jail, but while she always gets praised for it - rightly so, true, as it does show that she's serious - Buffy's wrong again for offering the same solution. Interesting, that.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

It usually makes things worse with real-life criminals, too, but the solution isn't to just let them go and hope they decide to do better, next time - they usually do, but it's better from the standpoint of being a better criminal. I notice that Faith's solution was also for her to go to jail, but while she always gets praised for it - rightly so, true, as it does show that she's serious - Buffy's wrong again for offering the same solution. Interesting, that.

No, Buffy was wrong for trying to force Faith to Jail. That would have done no good whatsoever. It's not even as if they would have let her go wandering around LA either; last time Angel shackled her when it was necessary. A Slayer cannot be forced into the human legal system without their consent. If Buffy had forced Faith into jail, who knows what she could have done. Broken out and raised hell (not literally.......well, maybe literally), gone back after Buffy, even commited suicide. Not good in the cosmic balance of things. Angel understood this, and so did Buffy. She was just too swept up in the emotion to accept it. So, no: Buffy was wrong for offering a different solution.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

This gets further into the realm of BS all the time. Let's just cut to the chase: Buffy's wrong, period, about everything, all the time, and everyone else is right (even when they go out of their way to keep Buffy out of the loop.) End of story. Gotcha. I'll have to remember that in future.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

This gets further into the realm of BS all the time. Let's just cut to the chase: Buffy's wrong, period, about everything, all the time, and everyone else is right (even when they go out of their way to keep Buffy out of the loop.) End of story. Gotcha. I'll have to remember that in future.

Not at all. Buffy is more often than not in the right, and Faith is more often than not in the wrong. I've never contested that fact. In this individual instance however, Buffy was in the wrong. Can you honestly say that Buffy's approach to this whole situation was right? Especially at the end when she had had time to catch up on the situation. Did Angel deserve her dig about Riley and trust? No.

 

[Angel's vision]

Rowan you did great, really really great, I buy that Angel should of said "yes I care!" That's the only problem I had though, with him, Buffy stormed in and saw them together Faith had blood on her hands and was obviously distressed, Buffy *ignored* this 'cause she was more interested in missreading the situation,
'cause Faith slept with Riley and stole her body and she heard Faith was trying to kill Angel again. She never attempted to allow Angel to help her one bit. He had to stop her from *ruining* Faith's chances of seeking redemption and responcibilty for her actions. Her vengeance was what Angel saw as a hinderance.

Buffy really had no right to go on and and on about how Angel proved she could not rely on him. Just because she saw he was trying to help Faith. She did not know when to step back. The only credit I'll give Buffy is she helped him fight off the Watcher's council. Even Wesley knew after Faith had tortured him that he needed to allow Angel to help her.