Buffys a killer

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Ok well if we are going to go on about how many times buffys saved the world lets go on about a few others, if faith hadn't fought angelus then the world would have been taken over by jasmine, if willow hadnt done that spell to glory buffy would have died before she even had time to sacrifice herself, angel has saved the world loads of times and willow has made it so that slayers all over the world can help people, theres no way buffy could save as many people willow has and will save even if she is saving them indirectly.
also buffy dying was also selfish, she let herself go, she gave up like what spike said every slayer wanted to die but a good one keeps fighting well she gave up, it tooo her five years, i mean sure she did it to save dawn but she knew that by dying dawn would still die, eventually without a slayer, she left the hellmouth and her friends unprotected beause she didnt want to carry on anymore- which although her death is noble there is stil an aspect of selfishness about why she did and i still think the kob where doing the right thing- dawn should have been killed, they wouldnt have killed buffy and co if they'd of killed dawn- you still didnt say where it says the kob where interdimensional warriors
 
BillieHunter said:
As far as the Vamp-ho goes. Buffy's supposed to kill vampires. QUOTE]

Look, I understand that Buffy's job is to protect people from vampires by killing them. But when she killed that vampire whore in "Into the Woods", I don't think that protecting someone or self-defense was on her mind. I think that she killed that vampire whore out of rage and vindictiveness. I don't think she should be excused, simply because her job is to be a vampire slayer and that the victim was a vampire. When someone commits an action, the motive behind that action is very important. I don't think that Buffy's motive for killing that vampire whore was either self-defense or protection of an innocent. I think it was about revenge and giving in to her anger.

I also suspect that her reason for hunting down Faith in "Graduation" was all about revenge. If Angel needed Slayer blood to survive, she could have simply allowed him to feed from her . . . which she eventually did, after badly wounding Faith.

I realize that many of you would like to believe that Buffy was perfect or the personification of goodness or light. But she's not. And she would probably be the first person to tell you . . . if she had the courage. She had flaws and she had a darkness within her (and I'm not talking about the demonic essence that made her a Slayer) that she had a tendency to give into, sometimes. Please remember . . . she's only human.
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How can you call Buffy selfish for what she did in The Gift, she saved the world, Buffy knew that her friends could protect themselves, there was a watcher, 2powerful witches, a vampire, an ex-demon. Buffy had to die in The Gift or the world would of ended, if Dawn would of died she wasn't going to slay ever again so it didnt really matter. Yeh Buffy knew the hardest thing in the world was to live it, but she had to protect it and by protecting it she would die for it and that she did.
 
S
SlayerThe
[No message]
"'The final episode did very well was admit that Buffy really is in love with Angel' - James Marsters"

Dear James. I'm such a big fan of his. Too bad he never really understood Buffy or Spike's characters.
 
LadyLavinia said:
Look, I understand that Buffy's job is to protect people from vampires by killing them. But when she killed that vampire whore in "Into the Woods", I don't think that protecting someone or self-defense was on her mind. I think that she killed that vampire whore out of rage and vindictiveness. I don't think she should be excused, simply because her job is to be a vampire slayer and that the victim was a vampire. When someone commits an action, the motive behind that action is very important. I don't think that Buffy's motive for killing that vampire whore was either self-defense or protection of an innocent. I think it was about revenge and giving in to her anger.

I also suspect that her reason for hunting down Faith in "Graduation" was all about revenge. If Angel needed Slayer blood to survive, she could have simply allowed him to feed from her . . . which she eventually did, after badly wounding Faith.

I realize that many of you would like to believe that Buffy was perfect or the personification of goodness or light. But she's not. And she would probably be the first person to tell you . . . if she had the courage. She had flaws and she had a darkness within her (and I'm not talking about the demonic essence that made her a Slayer) that she had a tendency to give into, sometimes. Please remember . . . she's only human.
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I disagree with you on the issue of the 'vamp-ho'.

Buffy had the right the slay the vampire. No matter whether she has issues with this girl or not, she is supposed to and its right if she does.

I've often been mad when Buffy let vampires go (like Spike in "School Hard)-Season2 & others). Even if she hadn't saw this vamp making prostitute-like fun with Riley, she would have killed her anyways.

In fact, Buffy's humanity actually stood out more than her revenge. She saw that vampire and it looked sad and alone. And Buffy felt for her. She too was in a rift. But then as the vampire is running away, Buffy realizes that she can't let this vampire go because it could do so much harm.

If anything, Buffy has sometimes been to leanant with some vampires. Revenge played no part. Yes, she may have been mad at her, but in the end she slayed her because it was her job. Not her job as angry girlfiend, but her job as the Slayer!

EDIT: Just reread this and I realize that its so late and soo I'm so tired, that my english is extremely bad. I don't even think I can make a clear sentence. Time for bed! :silly:
 
Buffy: I've killed a lot of vampires. I've never hated one before.
Angel: Feels good, doesn't it? Feels simple.

In Buffy Season 1, the episode Angel, Angel explains to Buffy that revenge makes everything more simple, that if you hate someone it feels better killing them. When has Buffy ever had it easy killing someone?

Fighting Faith wasn't about revenge. Buffy wanted to save her sister slayer, but she had done everything she was capable of and Faith had hurt Angel. Buffy needed her strength to fight the Mayor but she couldn't let Angel die. She wanted to use Faith to save someone. She wasn't going to kill her for the fun of it.

Willow on the other hand, killed to avenge Tara. She was protecting no one.
 
B
Beer_Nut
Great points! I definitely agree!
nerd4hire
nerd4hire
Too true. Crystal clear.
Jenny
Jenny
Excellent point about Buffy trying to save Faith repeatedly. She was beyond saving at that point in time.
i noticed noone mentioned wesley and his killing of that science guy, he was just as bad as willow if not worse because willow had the grief and thirst for revenge clouding her judgement she had the power of the magicks- i think what buffy was going to do to faith was wrong- she was going to kill her to save a vampire, which i think is just as bad as willow and wesley the only difference is angel wasnt actually dead so she hadnt go the grief and that yet
 
The Willsta said:
i noticed noone mentioned wesley and his killing of that science guy, he was just as bad as willow if not worse because willow had the grief and thirst for revenge clouding her judgement she had the power of the magicks- i think what buffy was going to do to faith was wrong- she was going to kill her to save a vampire, which i think is just as bad as willow and wesley the only difference is angel wasnt actually dead so she hadnt go the grief and that yet
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In the end, it would have came down to a fight between Buffy and Faith anyways. So it was better for Buffy to take Faith down for Angel, instead of her having to beat the living crap out of her at Graduation (which I'm sure she would have.)

And as Buffy has the right to slay vampires and demons, I think a rogue slayer would fit into that category. Faith wasn't entirely human, she had superpowers. And even better, she used them against the things they were meant for. Buffy was clearly also helping out mankind. Faith did damage and could have did a lot more if not for Buffy. The ascension probably would have occured if not for comatose Faith. I mean Faith could have totally distracted Buffy and lead the Mayor to conquer.

You have to remember, Buffy has the right. In some ways, she is truly above the law. Maybe not with killing innocents, but if it comes between her and the world, she would. She was given the power to do this, shes the protector.
 
Buffy is not a killer. She keeps repeating her good morales and ethics in the Season 6 Arc with dark Willow. She mentions that there is a line which one can not cross. And how serious the actions of murder are. Also, she actually says that a Slayer is NOT a killer. Buffy slays monsters not people. There is a different law when it comes to people. She has to protect herself from getting harmed human or not. But self-defense and murder are totally not the same!
 
B
BillieHunter
I completely agree...well said.
Blessed said:
Buffy is not a killer. She keeps repeating her good morales and ethics in the Season 6 Arc with dark Willow. She mentions that there is a line which one can not cross. And how serious the actions of murder are. Also, she actually says that a Slayer is NOT a killer. Buffy slays monsters not people. There is a different law when it comes to people. She has to protect herself from getting harmed human or not. But self-defense and murder are totally not the same!
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i dont think she really believed, like will said it was obvious that buffy was lying, when she was talking to willow she could see right through her.

Off topic- but how did buffy know that killing people changes you :big:
 
The difference between slaying and murder in the Buffyverse is a combination of Intent and Motivation. Buffy killed the Knights, indirectly the Gruenstahlers, and any other folk she offed in defence of herself or her loved ones, and all posed an immediate threat. All of these acts are justified.

Except Faith.

Faith, having shot Angel with an arrow, settled in to read comics for the night. She's not directly threatening Buffy, and in the grand scheme of things, Buffy has far greater concerns. After all, the day afterwards the graduating class is scheduled (no doubt in the Mayor's little filofax) to be eaten alive by the local political leader. Risking her neck in a brawl against her Doppelganger could leave the student population completely undefended. We know she's willing to sacrifice Angel for the if she absolutely has to because she's done it before. The fact is, one way or the other, Buffy cannot think straight when it comes to Faith. Make of it what you will, but she seems genuinely unable to deal with her in any rational way (Even/Especially in Season 7.). Her primary motivation that night was not Justice, or the Greater Good, or even, seemingly Angel. If it was, she would have a) Thought "Angel needs Slayer blood. Hang on. "Buffy" ..."The Vampire Slayer" eureka!" or b) Found another way. We've seen her do it before, against all the odds. She doesn't even try.

When Buffy stomps off to Faiths apartment, she does it with a chilling enthusiasm. As far as I'm concerned, she was a murderer long before she even switched off Faith's stereo. She'd already crossed the internal moral line ("Not if she's already dead"), the act itself is secondary. Buffy intrudes into Faith's home carrying a pair of handcuffs ("You had to tie me up to beat me. There's a word for people like you...Loser") and a concealed knife, a knife that just so happens to mean an awful lot to Faith. Buffy, after lecturing Faith for about half a season on why Slayers are not fit to weigh another human life, sticks a 4 inch blade into her enemys' kidneys, something generally frowned upon in polite circles. If it was Willow teetering on the ledge, would Buffy have been so slow to act? For all intents and purposes, Buffy, the same girl who once told Giles she was only 16 and afraid to die, has just murdered a troubled younger girl who both idolised her, and was, not so long before, her slashfictacularly close friend. When she leaves Faith's apartment, she isn't departing as a victorious warrior after vanquishing a foe. She sneaks away a killer.

It's part of Buffy's graduation. Her last loss of innocence. She killed the Master to survive. She killed Angel because she had to. She went to kill Faith... because she wanted to. Don't misunderstand: I am not saying the other girl was the Blessed St. Faith of Bostonia, but Faith's crimes don't invalidate Buffy's. Doctors, cops and firefighters aren't allowed to make those kind of judgements, and neither is she. To argue that Buffy was thoroughly justified in doing what she did is, IMO, to miss the point of a large part of S3. By beating Faith the way she did, she proved that Faith had been right all along about Buffy Anne Summers.

That's an impressively Lengthy Rant. Yeah, you might be better off just skipping every other line, you'll get the gist...
 
B
Bullwhip Guy
incredible arguement
Buffy is a killer. Just because she kills those deemed "evil" and "the Other" by society, doesn't really mean anything. Whether she's killing to save someone or not, or whether she's killing a human or not, as a vampire slayer, she is a killer.

Jill - I heartily agree with in regard to Faith. I've always found her actions in "Graduation, Part 1" questionable. And I noticed in S4 that Faith threw it back into her face.
 
I guess the bigger distinction is between "Killer" and "Murderer". Faith's a killer after Alan Finch, but she's not a murderer for quite while afterwards. I don't recall Buffy ever treating another human being so contemptously as she did Faith. She was willing to protect Warren, forgive Andrew, and meditate with Willow, but Faith gets nada but a few punches to the gob. Ah well. Our brave little toaster will march on... and if my Raw ThoughtPower alone triumphs, she'll march right into a spin off miniseries or Origin comic... hey, I can dream right?

Again, because I wanted so much to like Buffy again (I never really looked at her the same after Grad 1 and her taunts to the Mayor in Grad 2. I know she did what had to be done, but speaking so casually while waving around a knife with bits of human organs on it was chilling to the bone...) I really would have been happier if she'd taken Faith's criticisms in the S4, ATS S1 Arc on board, instead of just hitting things a lot. Having said that, from a Faith point of view, it made Faith a whole bunch more likeable, and it was in keeping with Buffy's frustration at how confused Faith makes her. In the original script for Sanctuary, it does make it a bit clearer that Faiths' speech about control does hit home, but somehow it got lost in translation... a shame.
 
Jill_Valentine said:
I guess the bigger distinction is betwee "Killer" and "Murderer". Faith's a killer after Alan Finch, but she's not a murderer for quite while afterwards. I don't recall Buffy ever treating another human being so contemptously as she did Faith. She was willing to protect Warren, forgive Andrew, and meditate with Willow, but Faith gets nada but a few punches to the gob. Ah well. Our brave little toaster will march on... and if my Raw ThoughtPower alone triumphs, she'll march right into a spin off miniseries or Origin comic... hey, I can dream right?

Again, because I wanted so much to like Buffy again (I never really looked at her the same after Grad 1 and her taunts to the Mayor in Grad 2. I know she did what had to be done, but speaking so casually while waving around a knife with bits of human organs on it was chilling to the bone...) I really would have been happier if she'd taken Faith's criticisms in the S4, ATS S1 Arc on board, instead of just hitting things a lot. Having said that, from a Faith point of view, it made Faith a whole bunch more likeable, and it was in keeping with Buffy's frustration at how confused Faith makes her. In the original script for Sanctuary, it does make it a bit clearer that Faiths' speech about control does hit home, but somehow it got lost in translation... a shame.
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Did you see Season3 of Buffy? Buffy was always trying to help Faith out and be on her side even in Season4 she tried to be her friend, but Faith pushed Buffy overboard to many times so Buffy finally let anger consume her and didnt care about trying to make Faith see that she is her friend.
 
When exactly did Buffy go out of her way to help Faith? When she offered her the spare room to stay in? Or hung out with her, just for the sake of hanging out? Or showed even a passing interest in Faith's life? (y'know, the deep stuff like "Faith, what's your surname?" ) Or visited her in hospital, after putting her there for the rest of her life? Buffy only really started paying her any attention when it suited her, but the fact is if she'd bothered her arse to look, she could have seen exactly how much rage Faith had inside her from the get go. Buffy said she reckoned Faith got over it all in FH&T, but Buffy's not usually that stupid. She doesn't know how to deal with Faith properly, which, to be fair, shouldn't be her responsibility, but to happily create a little fantasy world where Faith is psychologically healthy, as Buffy does repeatedly, just creates an even wider fallout zone.

But I can actually let all that slide, I guess: Buffy, at that point, was 17/18, and though she has the saving-the-world thing down to an art, she can't be blamed for failing to spot the various warning signals because she's got her own problems. What bothers me is that Willow skinned a man alive and gets hugs (it took Buffy all of two episodes to get over that) and Reformed!Faith gets slugged for the shocking crime of a) Attacking a man she knows is a vampire and b) bringing the girls to the Bronze. Did Buffy ever learn the girls names, d'ya think?
 
Jacklyn said:
Um...It took Buffy MONTHS to get over the whole Willow thing-she still didn't trust her in ep 7.3, "Same Time, Same Place."
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No, she didn't. I think people often forget that between two seasons there's a whole summer.
 
If I'm not mistaken, Willow was absent for most of that summer, so Buffy didn't have to deal with her face to face anyway. Even if only from a viewers perspective... we only saw Buffy being visibly wary of Willow for a few episodes, and even then, that's only a summer she's been repenting for. Faith spent 8 months in a coma that rather resembled a perpetual living hell, then 2 years getting the crap kicked out of her by prison guards, though she was content to serve 25. She willingly gave Angelus a chance of spraying her head all over the floor with a shotgun just for a slim chance at saving Angel, and then she took the Drug Ex Machina that "leads you down to hell and leaves you there". (Can I ask why the hell it's so popular then?) Not to forget getting pasted all over a warehouse by the Beast.

It's still not enough for Buffy. Double Standard.

But then I guess it's easier for Buffy to distinguish between Evil!Willow and Evil!Faith, because Willow comes with a handy dandy colour code. Sure, Reformed!Faith has blondish streaks and a demi-Farrah, and she did switch from Leather of Evil to Denim of Shadiness, but she still looks remarkably similar to when she did when she was murdering people. I think that was my big problem with S6. If the person who skinned Warren looked at all like the Willow Rosenberg we've come to know and love, it might have been a more powerful storyline. But substituting her for Gary Numan's little sister undermined the whole idea...
 
Jill_Valentine said:
I guess the bigger distinction is between "Killer" and "Murderer". Faith's a killer after Alan Finch, but she's not a murderer for quite while afterwards. I don't recall Buffy ever treating another human being so contemptously as she did Faith. She was willing to protect Warren, forgive Andrew, and meditate with Willow, but Faith gets nada but a few punches to the gob. Ah well. Our brave little toaster will march on... and if my Raw ThoughtPower alone triumphs, she'll march right into a spin off miniseries or Origin comic... hey, I can dream right?

Again, because I wanted so much to like Buffy again (I never really looked at her the same after Grad 1 and her taunts to the Mayor in Grad 2. I know she did what had to be done, but speaking so casually while waving around a knife with bits of human organs on it was chilling to the bone...) I really would have been happier if she'd taken Faith's criticisms in the S4, ATS S1 Arc on board, instead of just hitting things a lot. Having said that, from a Faith point of view, it made Faith a whole bunch more likeable, and it was in keeping with Buffy's frustration at how confused Faith makes her. In the original script for Sanctuary, it does make it a bit clearer that Faiths' speech about control does hit home, but somehow it got lost in translation... a shame.
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I couldn't agree with you more
 
Faith/willowfan said:
I was just thinking that everyone gives willow a hard time for killing tow men who in my opinion deserved but Buffy never gets any stick for killing a human. most people think buffy has never taken a human life but she is- in series 5 when she fights the knights of byzantium or what ever they called, we see her kill at least one when she puts an axe in his chestand that black guy says he lost, i think it was 10 men but none even battered an eye lid, also none said anything when she killed caleb, who as technically human, i know he deserved to die but still i just dont like how people like angel, willow anya etc. cant get away with it but she can- its so unfair and technically makes her a hypocrit, if thats how u spell it!!!
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There is a huge differance between killing in self defence and killing as Willow did because of her loss . The Knights of Byzantium were about to murder her sister and anyone that would get in the way of their goal. Caleb was an instrument of evil and was also out to murder Buffy and the Potentials. Buffy may have been hypocritical about some things but this wasn't one on them.
 
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