Buffys ( as in two ) the vampire slayers?

[Robb Stark]

Not if the protection element of the spell applied only to the specific threat posed by Glory. Once that threat was averted, so was the "protect Dawn at all cost" mind set. From that point on, Buffy would only see Dawn as her rather obnoxious younger sister.

In other words, it wasn't a case of Buffy regaining any of her previous "Buffiness" as much as it was a case of Dawn losing all or most of her "Keyness."

And, like Spock, the ability of some humans to reject logic is no surprise to me.

Live long and prosper.

But there's no evidence of this. We're never given information that supports this at all. I suppose if it's just an interpretation then sure, you can argue things that way, but neither the show nor the comics tells us that, so you can't present it as a fact. As such her willingness to sacrifice Dawn in S7 shows that she's evolved and changed as a person, not that she doesn't have free will.

 

[The Bronze]

Angel didn't do nearly as bad against the Morah demon as he could have. He survived, after all, even if that was partially the result of Buffy's intervention. His problem, though, is that he learned to fight a certain way, dependent on his abilities as a vampire, superior speed, strength, endurance, and so on. Without that, his technique fails, just like Superman's ability to fight would be all screwed up without his super powers. Angel could have, in time, become at least as skillful a fighter as Gunn, Wes, Riley, or even Xander, but the key word there is "time."

It's something that needed a bit more thought than what he gave it. He definitely needed a bit of time to adjust but he wasn't completely useless to begin with. There were pro's and con's to the situation. Con - no more vampire strength. Pro - no more trouble with sunlight etc.

And as for the Oracles not seeing that Angel would lose his powers, who's to say that they didn't see it, but also saw him cutting the deal to restore those powers the next day. And maybe they see death in a far different light than we do, and getting killed by a demon isn't all that important to them?

Well I guess that's possible. In which case I tip my hat to their fantastic acting abilities because they sure pulled off surprised and clueless to perfection.

Also ,I would add that if Angel hadn't told Buffy, I would have a different take on what he did, so I can see where you're coming from.
But it is shown that he loves being human, and loves Buffy, and giving either of those up couldn't have been easy for him, I just don't see him doing it lightly.

I think Angel does have the fault where he sees the 'big picture' wheter its his redemption, or some big save the world thing, and makes a decision based on his interpretation of the facts. (or by blindly following what he's told by somebody else.) It's his one major fault imo.
But...I still like him because I can always see what he's trying to do- they're never easy choices and he never, ever comes out ahead.
He loses Buffy, loses Conner, almost dies a bunch of times, he 'big decisions' never give him a happy ending. If they did maybe I wouldn't be so forgiving. 🙂

I pretty much agree with this. I'm certainly not saying Angel had bad intentions. I'm not even saying that his decision was 100% wrong. Just that his decision making is really poor in this instance. If he came to the right decision then it was more by luck than judgement.

I also don't think telling Buffy after he's done it was a good thing. A good decision would have been to tell her before making the decision and then discussing it. Failing that he should keep quiet and let her be happy for another few minutes.

 

[thetopher]

Not if the protection element of the spell applied only to the specific threat posed by Glory. Once that threat was averted, so was the "protect Dawn at all cost" mind set. From that point on, Buffy would only see Dawn as her rather obnoxious younger sister.

In other words, it wasn't a case of Buffy regaining any of her previous "Buffiness" as much as it was a case of Dawn losing all or most of her "Keyness."

And, like Spock, the ability of some humans to reject logic is no surprise to me.

Live long and prosper.

Then, if they could just make Buffy love and protect the key, why did they give her a sister. Why not just give her a stuffed animal to love, or a car, or a puppy?
Seems like a lot of work to make a human being if they could make Buffy love/fight/sacrifice herself for anything.
('She looks deeply into Mr. Hippo's big glass eyes one last time...and then jumps into the portal to save her bestest ever friend...'😛)

Plus if the monks can do this they why not make Riley and Spike behave similarly? They're both strong warrior, Riley's got some Intiative sources, if they loved Dawn absolutely then they would fight more strongly for her.

Also, by your reasoning, Buffy would love Dawn less after Glory died a that part of the spell faded. I don't see any evidence of this at the end of S6, when Buffy seems to immensely proud to her sister and wants to 'show her the world'. If she loved her because of the spell, then why care?



And oh, I always prefered Kirk or 'Bones' to Spock anyway, I was so glad when Faith kicked his ass. 😀

 

[white avenger]

Then, if they could just make Buffy love and protect the key, why did they give her a sister. Why not just give her a stuffed animal to love, or a car, or a puppy?
Seems like a lot of work to make a human being if they could make Buffy love/fight/sacrifice herself for anything.
('She looks deeply into Mr. Hippo's big glass eyes one last time...and then jumps into the portal to save her bestest ever friend...'😛)

Plus if the monks can do this they why not make Riley and Spike behave similarly? They're both strong warrior, Riley's got some Initiative sources, if they loved Dawn absolutely then they would fight more strongly for her.

Also, by your reasoning, Buffy would love Dawn less after Glory died a that part of the spell faded. I don't see any evidence of this at the end of S6, when Buffy seems to immensely proud to her sister and wants to 'show her the world'. If she loved her because of the spell, then why care?



And oh, I always preferred Kirk or 'Bones' to Spock anyway, I was so glad when Faith kicked his ass. 😀

I totally agree about the stuffed toy or the puppy. Transforming the Key into a sister for the Slayer was stupid and unnecessary on he tmonks' part. Its only actual purpose was to introduce a new, younger, member into the cast who would have a close bond with the existing group, basically the same reason that Chekhov with his god awful Beatle wig, was introduced on "Star Trek."

And what example, one way or the other, do we have that Buffy still has that sort of protective devotion to Dawn in Season 6 and beyond? Nothing in Season 6, but in Season 7, she tells Giles that, under similar circumstances at that time, she would, indeed, have sacrificed Dawn to save the world. Buffy doesn't have to quit loving Dawn entirely just because she no longer placed her life on a higher priority than that of everyone else in the world.

Why didn't the monks create the same feelings of protectiveness to Riley and Spike? For that matter, why didn't they do the same thing to all of the Scoobies, and maybe a few hundred other people, creating an army of Dawn protectors? Could it just possibly be because all that they knew about the Slayer was general knowledge about the "one girl in all the world" whose duty it was to protect mankind from all the vampires, demons, and assorted baddies? Even if they had thought of anything like that, it'ss doubtful that they had sufficient time to do an in depth study of this particular Slayer and all of her friends and allies. From what we saw, they were kind of rushed just to accomplish what they did before Glory found them.

And as for the cast of "Star Trek," I liked Kirk too, and Deforrest Kelly was a fellow Georgia boy, so he had a special place in my heart as well, but Spike was by far the most unique and interesting person onboard the original "Enterprise."

And Faith didn't kick Spike's ass.That was some other Vulcan, who didn't look anything like Spock, and, if you check his rank insignia, it clearly shows that he is a Lieutenant Commander, whereas Spike was a full Commander. (McCoy and Scott were Lieutenant Commanders, Uhura was a Lieutenant, Riley was a Lieutenant, Junior Grade, and Chekov was an Ensign, by the way)

 

[thetopher]

I totally agree about the stuffed toy or the puppy. Transforming the Key into a sister for the Slayer was stupid and unnecessary on he tmonks' part. Its only actual purpose was to introduce a new, younger, member into the cast who would have a close bond with the existing group, basically the same reason that Chekhov with his god awful Beatle wig, was introduced on "Star Trek."

And what example, one way or the other, do we have that Buffy still has that sort of protective devotion to Dawn in Season 6 and beyond? Nothing in Season 6, but in Season 7, she tells Giles that, under similar circumstances at that time, she would, indeed, have sacrificed Dawn to save the world. Buffy doesn't have to quit loving Dawn entirely just because she no longer placed her life on a higher priority than that of everyone else in the world.

Why didn't the monks create the same feelings of protectiveness to Riley and Spike? For that matter, why didn't they do the same thing to all of the Scoobies, and maybe a few hundred other people, creating an army of Dawn protectors? Could it just possibly be because all that they knew about the Slayer was general knowledge about the "one girl in all the world" whose duty it was to protect mankind from all the vampires, demons, and assorted baddies? Even if they had thought of anything like that, it'ss doubtful that they had sufficient time to do an in depth study of this particular Slayer and all of her friends and allies. From what we saw, they were kind of rushed just to accomplish what they did before Glory found them.

And as for the cast of "Star Trek," I liked Kirk too, and Deforrest Kelly was a fellow Georgia boy, so he had a special place in my heart as well, but Spike was by far the most unique and interesting person onboard the original "Enterprise."

And Faith didn't kick Spike's ass.That was some other Vulcan, who didn't look anything like Spock, and, if you check his rank insignia, it clearly shows that he is a Lieutenant Commander, whereas Spike was a full Commander. (McCoy and Scott were Lieutenant Commanders, Uhura was a Lieutenant, Riley was a Lieutenant, Junior Grade, and Chekov was an Ensign, by the way)

Careful...youre Spuffy's showing. 🙂
Spock, not Spike. 😛
But you're right, Faith didn't kill Spock, that was just Andrew's delusions. She did kick Spike's ass though...😉

But to the above point, the monks had enough time to plant Dawn into the lives of dozens of individuals but only had time to place those 'protectiveness' feelings in Buffy? And nobody else?
That's kind of convienient to your argument.
The spell was clearly very intricate.
Plus, Giles notes (that Spike reads out) say that the monks can control energy and shape it- bend reality. There's no mention of mind-control, which seems like a different spell discipline (This is just speculation based on what I've seen of Willow's mind controlling- it seems like very different.)
It's far more likely there was no mind-controling aspect to the 'key' spell and that they heard that just the 'one girl in all the world' could be strong enough to protect her. So they linked the two of them with memories.

As for loving Dawn less, in S6 Buffy's clinically depressed, but in S7, she's acting like a loving, caring big sister, just like in S5- I think Dawn is pretty attuned to Buffy's moods by then.

 

[white avenger]

Careful...youre Spuffy's showing. 🙂
Spock, not Spike. 😛
But you're right, Faith didn't kill Spock, that was just Andrew's delusions. She did kick Spike's ass though...😉

"Spike" was a typo. the I and the O are side by side, and I just hit the wrong key.

I only remember Spike and Faith fighting twice, both in Season 7, and neither fight was in any way conclusive. Buffy stopped them the first time, and Spike walked away (though I'm sure that his detractors saw it differently) the second time. Whose ass would actually be kicked and who would do the kicking if they ever squared off for real and went all the way to a conclusion is anyone's guess.

Or were you referring to this, maybe?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Bt__ZOAF0"]Faith Vs Spike (Buffy The Vampire Slayer Face Off) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[thetopher]

I thought as much. 😉


Uh...nope, I didn't actually know that existed. Or what it is for that matter. 😕
I'm not to big on computer games- some wrestling game with Buffyverse skins?

Yeah, they only tussled in S7, I'm just speculating after what Faith did to Angelus a few weeks previously- kicked that ass. 🙂

I'm not gonna get into a who-can-beat-up who thing, they're on the same side, they both make the leather-clad rebel thing work for them, that's all that matters imo. 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

I thought as much. 😉


Uh...nope, I didn't actually know that existed. Or what it is for that matter. 😕
I'm not to big on computer games- some wrestling game with Buffyverse skins?

Yeah, they only tussled in S7, I'm just speculating after what Faith did to Angelus a few weeks previously- kicked that ass. 🙂

I'm not gonna get into a who-can-beat-up who thing, they're on the same side, they both make the leather-clad rebel thing work for them, that's all that matters imo. 🙂

I'm quoting this, but replying to White Avenger's reputation comment.

Spike beat Angel, Faith beat Angelus, and I think we've seen that Angelus is particularly more deadly than Angel.

 

[RoxySilver]

They might have different personalities, different memories, but all that is an illusion built up by her brain.

I've never really understood what the monks changed exactly. I mean, Dawn isn't an illusion, is she? She's real, she bleeds, cries (a lot), is enrolled at school and has friends.

So did the monks recreated the Summers entire life?
Let's suppose we go back ten years, when the Summers were a family in LA. Do some people (family friends, schools and other) remember Dawn?
They had to alter everybody's memory. Or did they go back in time, implented Dawn and had everybody relive their lives?

I know it is somehow admitted that they altered people's memory, but I don't know why, I feel it doesn't make sense.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I've never really understood what the monks changed exactly. I mean, Dawn isn't an illusion, is she? She's real, she bleeds, cries (a lot), is enrolled at school and has friends.

So did the monks recreated the Summers entire life?
Let's suppose we go back ten years, when the Summers were a family in LA. Do some people (family friends, schools and other) remember Dawn?
They had to alter everybody's memory. Or did they go back in time, implented Dawn and had everybody relive their lives?

I know it is somehow admitted that they altered people's memory, but I don't know why, I feel it doesn't make sense.

I always had the impression that this is like the butterfly effect, a time-travel paradox where any change made in the past ripples through and may result in the rise or demise of entire civilizations.

From "Spiral 5ABB20", we are told by Gregor, the general of the Knights of Byzantium, who Buffy had captured why the Key was made into Dawn:

GREGOR: The key ... is almost as old as the beast itself. Where it came from, how it was created ... the deepest of mysteries. All that is certain is that its power is absolute. Countless generations of my people have sacrificed their lives in search of it, to destroy it before its wrath could be unleashed.

DAWN: But the monks found it first.

GREGOR: Yes, and hid it with their magicks.

BUFFY: Why didn't they just destroy it? If the key is as dangerous as-

GREGOR: Because they were fools. They thought they could harness its power for the forces of light. They failed, and paid with their blood.

DAWN: What do I do? What was I created for?

GREGOR: You were created ... to open the gates that separate dimensions. The beast will use your power ... to return home and seize control of the hell she was banished from.

Buffy laughs. The general looks at her in surprise.

BUFFY: That's it? That's Glory's master plan ... to go home?

GREGOR: You misunderstand. Once the key is activated, it won't just open the gates to the beast's dimension. It's going to open all the gates. The walls separating realities will crumble. (shot of Buffy no longer smiling. Shot of Dawn) Dimensions will bleed into each other. Order will be overthrown and the universe will tumble into chaos ... all dark ... forever.

It looks like the monks were trying to preserve the key for their own future use.

 

[thetopher]

I've never really understood what the monks changed exactly. I mean, Dawn isn't an illusion, is she? She's real, she bleeds, cries (a lot), is enrolled at school and has friends.

So did the monks recreated the Summers entire life?
Let's suppose we go back ten years, when the Summers were a family in LA. Do some people (family friends, schools and other) remember Dawn?
They had to alter everybody's memory. Or did they go back in time, implented Dawn and had everybody relive their lives?

I know it is somehow admitted that they altered people's memory, but I don't know why, I feel it doesn't make sense.

We see in S9, when people start to forget Dawn, that before S5, the memories aren't all that prevelant for say, Faith and Angel- they seem to forget Dawn pretty quickly. I'm not sure how many people, friends or teachers, were 'rewritten' to remember Dawn.

Dawn struck me as a bit of a nerd, at least compared to her sister, she's quiet and likes books (looks up to Willow and Tara). It's possible that before S5 she didn't have many friends, maybe just Janice, and built up a few more as she went on to 'exist'.

Still, interesting question.🙂