Buffy's Best Friend?

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Not telling the scoobies was in season3 before season 4 and that is not what I am talking about.

Whoops, my bad.

Willow is stronger in terms of personality and plays that out on Buffy, which I do not like.

I see that rather as challenging, something a real friend does. The purpose is that Buffy finally starts to question herself and stops with the purposeless drifting. She might come out as a better person at the end.

I just don't see where Willow is meaninglessly playing out her stronger personality to Buffy after the destruction of the seed. In S08 Issue 39, the loss of magic is displayed as a deeply traumatic experience for Willow. Look at the pictures. The next issue shows them talking and Willow struggles with her new condition (and loss of Awulyn) which is understandable and not unique (Buffy & the cruciamentum in "Helpless", remember). She is slightly resenting Buffy, but well it is partly Buffy's (mostly Angel's) fault that it came so far. I don't condemn Willow for it, she's human. I'd be pissed too. Specifically, when Buffy seems so indifferent and unreasonable about it like she was. Later at the beginning of S09 I don't see where the fuss is. Willow wants Buffy to realize the consequences, the latter refuses and wallows in self-pity. That's about it. No self-righteousness, just a (very gentle) kick in the ass to do something. That's kinda Willow's job as a friend. The rest of the season, Willow is mostly apart from Buffy.

season 6 is the turning point where their friendship starts to break for me.

In terms of that their friendship isn't a crucial part of the show anymore, I agree. S07 misses many opportunities to deal with it in favor for Spuffy. I really wish the Buffy/Willow dynamic would have been more addressed. "Same Place, Same Time" was all that we got. But that's neither Willow's nor Buffy's fault.

And Willow had her own life in season 1-4, magic, Oz, computers, college, Tara.

Uh, sorry. I was referring post "Chosen". Every time Willow's does something alone (her quest of getting magic back) OR for herself (working for the military in S10) it's all self-absorbed Willow again. 🙄

Generally I think all scoobies became self-centered, self-righteous and judging too much.

Scoobies including Buffy? Anyway, here is not much to discuss. I don't don't see that at all, including Buffy. Well maybe expect S10 but, again, bad writing of Buffy. She's extremely OOC there.😀

 

[Sternbeeere]

.

Whoops, my bad.


I see that rather as challenging, something a real friend does. The purpose is that Buffy finally starts to question herself and stops with the purposeless drifting. She might come out as a better person at the end.

I just don't see where Willow is meaninglessly playing out her stronger personality to Buffy after the destruction of the seed. In S08 Issue 39, the loss of magic is displayed as a deeply traumatic experience for Willow. Look at the pictures. The next issue shows them talking and Willow struggles with her new condition (and loss of Awulyn) which is understandable and not unique (Buffy & the cruciamentum in "Helpless", remember). She is slightly resenting Buffy, but well it is partly Buffy's (mostly Angel's) fault that it came so far. I don't condemn Willow for it, she's human. I'd be pissed too. Specifically, when Buffy seems so indifferent and unreasonable about it like she was. Later at the beginning of S09 I don't see where the fuss is. Willow wants Buffy to realize the consequences, the latter refuses and wallows in self-pity. That's about it. No self-righteousness, just a (very gentle) kick in the ass to do something. That's kinda Willow's job as a friend. The rest of the season, Willow is mostly apart from Buffy.


In terms of that their friendship isn't a crucial part of the show anymore, I agree. S07 misses many opportunities to deal with it in favor for Spuffy. I really wish the Buffy/Willow dynamic would have been more addressed. "Same Place, Same Time" was all that we got. But that's neither Willow's nor Buffy's fault.


Uh, sorry. I was referring post "Chosen". Every time Willow's does something alone (her quest of getting magic back) OR for herself (working for the military in S10) it's all self-absorbed Willow again. 🙄



Scoobies including Buffy? Anyway, here is not much to discuss. I don't don't see that at all, including Buffy. Well maybe expect S10 but, again, bad writing of Buffy. She's extremely OOC there.😀

Well I do not mean the arcs what that she does alone, just her interactions with Buffy.
Buffyis insecure in the comics all the time, it also seems that she cannot overcome past issues, like Angel. But somehow I feel compassion towards Buffy when i read her thoughts and see her actions.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

Buffyis insecure in the comics all the time, it also seems that she cannot overcome past issues, like Angel.

That I agree and annoys me actually. It seems that everybody grows up but Buffy. I like her (she's the show) but her story in the comics is one of the least interesting to me just because of that issue plus Spuffy.

But somehow I feel compassion towards Buffy when i read her thoughts and see her actions.

I can see when one is solely rooting for Buffy and looking from her POV that the others appear condescending and self-righteous. The problem is that actually Buffy has to change/grow up not the others. I blame mostly Spuffy, or the focus on her love interests in general, for her stagnation. If I had it my way, I would break Buffy and Spike up and give Spike is own comic where he can be the badass, violent vampire asshole we all like again instead the mollycoddle he currently is. Willow has everything a superhero needs and has outgrown her sidekick role. She doesn't really fit into BtVS anymore (she's almost no development or anything to do in S10) so she needs an own comic as well. Buffy can finally grow as a person and might become interesting again. *sigh* Wishful thinking, I guess.

 

[Sternbeeere]

That I agree and annoys me actually. It seems that everybody grows up but Buffy. I like her (she's the show) but her story in the comics is one of the least interesting to me just because of that issue plus Spuffy.


I can see when one is solely rooting for Buffy and looking from her POV that the others appear condescending and self-righteous. The problem is that actually Buffy has to change/grow up not the others. I blame mostly Spuffy, or the focus on her love interests in general, for her stagnation. If I had it my way, I would break Buffy and Spike up and give Spike is own comic where he can be the badass, violent vampire asshole we all like again instead the mollycoddle he currently is. Willow has everything a superhero needs and has outgrown her sidekick role. She doesn't really fit into BtVS anymore (she's almost no development or anything to do in S10) so she needs an own comic as well. Buffy can finally grow as a person and might become interesting again. *sigh* Wishful thinking, I guess.

About Buffy: I feel the same too, it is like Buffy did not develop much in the series, but for me Bangel is the main problem somehow in that. She kisses him in season 5, she sleeps with him in season 8, and she says herself that although she was under twilights control, she might have figured ways to avoid the prophecy, if she has had more knowledge. And in my opinion less feelings for Angel, which she cannot overcome since they came together. Actually I like Spuffy, though my favourite is Fuffy. Billow is also an option as I said, I see Willows actions not as something that abandons Buffy, but rather that her friendship changes into something else.I do not know if the Buffyverse would sustain completely without the other characters and completely new characters would be harsh changes.
Additionally it depends a little on how much fans which character has.
And yeah you are right, it depends on the perspective, i take the Buffy/Spuffy perspective and you take the Willow perspective, hence we come to totally different results, judging the situation.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

She kisses him in season 5, she sleeps with him in season 8, and she says herself that although she was under twilights control, she might have figured ways to avoid the prophecy, if she has had more knowledge. And in my opinion less feelings for Angel, which she cannot overcome since they came together.

I agree and for the record; I'm not a Bangel shipper just because I'm disapproving of Spuffy. Leaving Sunnydale was the best Angel could have done and his character improved greatly from the separation. The show, as well as the A&F comics, are overall great.

Actually I like Spuffy, though my favourite is Fuffy. Billow is also an option as I said, I see Willows actions not as something that abandons Buffy, but rather that her friendship changes into something else.

I like Buffy and I like Spike but not Spuffy. And not because it's Spuffy but because they're blocking each other's development. Spike's story in BtVS since S06 is all about Buffy. There isn't much else which justifies the focus he got in S07 and is now getting in S10. He's simply Buffy's love interest. It's getting boring and he has to adapt too much since their personalities aren't really compatible with each other. Hence, he loses his attributes which make me like him (violent, snarky, rebellious, overall an asshole etc.). The focus on romance is bad for Buffy as well. She can't really develop since she's always mooning over Angel, then Riley, then Spike, Angel again and now Spike again. Give her a break. No love interests for the next two seasons (if there will be two seasons). Concentrate on her development as a Slayer and an adult. And stop bashing the Scoobies to let her romances shine.

My favourite is Fillow (<3)by the way, but I wouldn't want it to happen just for the sake of it. I don't need pandering.

I do not know if the Buffyverse would sustain completely without the other characters and completely new characters would be harsh changes.

Buffy would keep Xander, Giles and Dawn.... and, reluctantly admitted, Andrew (I still prefer he'd simply die). And there is space for new characters.

I can see Spike as the loner type who's driving with his Desoto (does it still exist?) through the lands seeking a new challenge... and some violence. We don't want Angel 2.0.

Willow either joins Angel and Faith (Magic Town + Willow makes sense) or has a completely new set up with new characters. She's the mother of magic after all (kind of). That has to mean something.

If she stays with Buffy, she needs some profound arcs. S10 is a lame joke when it comes to her. She's the second important character of the fandom dammit!

And yeah you are right, it depends on the perspective, i take the Buffy/Spuffy perspective and you take the Willow perspective, hence we come to totally different results, judging the situation.

Hear, hear! 🙂

 

[Sternbeeere]

I agree and for the record; I'm not a Bangel shipper just because I'm disapproving of Spuffy. Leaving Sunnydale was the best Angel could have done and his character improved greatly from the separation. The show, as well as the A&F comics, are overall great.



I like Buffy and I like Spike but not Spuffy. And not because it's Spuffy but because they're blocking each other's development. Spike's story in BtVS since S06 is all about Buffy. There isn't much else which justifies the focus he got in S07 and is now getting in S10. He's simply Buffy's love interest. It's getting boring and he has to adapt too much since their personalities aren't really compatible with each other. Hence, he loses his attributes which make me like him (violent, snarky, rebellious, overall an asshole etc.). The focus on romance is bad for Buffy as well. She can't really develop since she's always mooning over Angel, then Riley, then Spike, Angel again and now Spike again. Give her a break. No love interests for the next two seasons (if there will be two seasons). Concentrate on her development as a Slayer and an adult. And stop bashing the Scoobies to let her romances shine.

My favourite is Fillow (<3)by the way, but I wouldn't want it to happen just for the sake of it. I don't need pandering.



Buffy would keep Xander, Giles and Dawn.... and, reluctantly admitted, Andrew (I still prefer he'd simply die). And there is space for new characters.

I can see Spike as the loner type who's driving with his Desoto (does it still exist?) through the lands seeking a new challenge... and some violence. We don't want Angel 2.0.

Willow either joins Angel and Faith (Magic Town + Willow makes sense) or has a completely new set up with new characters. She's the mother of magic after all (kind of). That has to mean something.

If she stays with Buffy, she needs some profound arcs. S10 is a lame joke when it comes to her. She's the second important character of the fandom dammit!



Hear, hear! 🙂

I agree about the Willow arcs there are really things to explore. (says the girl, who is takes the Buffy perspective 😉). The comics are very Buffy centric and as much as I appreciate understand Buffy better now, the series loses much appeal by long term focus on her.

About Spike, I love all facets of Spike and I love him being a fool for love, for me it would be good that Buffy stops at Spike for some seasons and that is it. I do not see them incompatible and Spike care for her. No more other romances or quarrels. That way, Andrew, whom I see dispensable could be removed also. Buffy would have Willow, Xander, Giles and Spike, who are all interesting characters, who could have own arcs/episodes withhin the comics.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

The comics are very Buffy centric and as much as I appreciate understand Buffy better now, the series loses much appeal by long term focus on her.

I don't mind the focus on her, she's the main character. It's rather that she didn't change much. Overall the same insecurities about her life and the same bad decisions in love interests *looks at the preview of the coming issue, speaking of Angel*. It worked when she was a teenager but she's end-twenty now, an adult.

About Spike, I love all facets of Spike and I love him being a fool for love, for me it would be good that Buffy stops at Spike for some seasons and that is it.

Then Spike would need arcs that concern him alone and have nothing to do with Buffy. Like every other character has. S07, S09 and 10 is all about Buffy. In AtS S05 & After the Fall he's by far more interesting to me because he's apart from Buffy. I think he should do the same what Angel and Riley did. Leave.

I do not see them incompatible and Spike care for her.

Different views I guess. Especially in S10 he is a shadow of himself.

No more other romances or quarrels.

Yup, it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer not Buffy the Supernatural Soap Opera. 😀

That way, Andrew, whom I see dispensable could be removed also.

I would have been happy if he and Jonathan never came back after S06. He worked as the dorky villain but that's it. In S07 he was just annoying because he stole precious Scoobie (Buffy/Willow/Xander) screen-time which was already scarce due to the massive focus on Spuffy. Later in the comics he keeps messing with Buffy (later Willow) repeatedly and, again, steals precious page-space from other important characters (esp. Willow & Dawn in S10), which is already scarce due to the Spuffy focus.

Buffy would have Willow, Xander, Giles and Spike, who are all interesting characters, who could have own arcs/episodes withhin the comics.

Willow and Spike are the wildcards for me. Willow just feels a bit out of place and her story-telling potential might be too big to be told in BtVS adequately. But scratch Andrew and refuse from silly Harmony arcs and we'll see. Xander and Giles are fine, though Giles is a bit bad handled imo.

Spike needs to break out of his "Buffy's love interest" role or he stagnates and becomes a total boring wimp. Angel and Riley would have befallen the same fate if they had stayed with Buffy.

 

[Sternbeeere]

I don't mind the focus on her, she's the main character. It's rather that she didn't change much. Overall the same insecurities about her life and the same bad decisions in love interests *looks at the preview of the coming issue, speaking of Angel*. It worked when she was a teenager but she's end-twenty now, an adult.


Then Spike would need arcs that concern him alone and have nothing to do with Buffy. Like every other character has. S07, S09 and 10 is all about Buffy. In AtS S05 & After the Fall he's by far more interesting to me because he's apart from Buffy. I think he should do the same what Angel and Riley did. Leave.


Different views I guess. Especially in S10 he is a shadow of himself.



Yup, it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer not Buffy the Supernatural Soap Opera. 😀



I would have been happy if he and Jonathan never came back after S06. He worked as the dorky villain but that's it. In S07 he was just annoying because he stole precious Scoobie (Buffy/Willow/Xander) screen-time which was already scarce due to the massive focus on Spuffy. Later in the comics he keeps messing with Buffy (later Willow) repeatedly and, again, steals precious page-space from other important characters (esp. Willow & Dawn in S10), which is already scarce due to the Spuffy focus.



Willow and Spike are the wildcards for me. Willow just feels a bit out of place and her story-telling potential might be too big to be told in BtVS adequately. But scratch Andrew and refuse from silly Harmony arcs and we'll see. Xander and Giles are fine, though Giles is a bit bad handled imo.

Spike needs to break out of his "Buffy's love interest" role or he stagnates and becomes a total boring wimp. Angel and Riley would have befallen the same fate if they had stayed with Buffy.

I think Dawn has enough time, we can see that she becomes more and more the intelligent, nerdy girl contrary to the reckless teenager she is in the beginning and her powers are explored in season 10. Willow does not get enough time. And yeah different views on Spike. And Riley has been boring from the beginning to me, Angel relatively annoying. But again different views.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Buffy's best friend in the early Seasons was Willow. In later Seasons her best friend was...oh wait friends don't exist there. Her biggest confidants however were Giles (not counting that thing in S6/7) and Angel.

 

[Klaus Kartoffel]

I think Dawn has enough time, we can see that she becomes more and more the intelligent, nerdy girl contrary to the reckless teenager she is in the beginning and her powers are explored in season 10.

I was referring only to S10. She felt mostly as a plot device for Xander to me. Her exploring power and dimension hopping arcs have yet to be finished for my final judgement. It's an interesting start, though, I agree.

 

[Buffy Summers]

In AtS S05 & After the Fall he's by far more interesting to me because he's apart from Buffy.

Spike needs to break out of his "Buffy's love interest" role or he stagnates and becomes a total boring wimp. Angel and Riley would have befallen the same fate if they had stayed with Buffy.

These ^^^^ absolutely.

🙂

 

[black cat]

I think that Buffy has no best friends like Faith: in the end they are very similar, both want to be accepted for their human quality instead of their superpowers and apparent " emotional and physical" invulnerability.... So I believe that Buffy has sometimes connection with others ( " occasionally best friend") but Tara, in my opinion, was the " best shorter" friend, because she was able to hear and, somehow, guide Buffy without anger, jealousy, hypocrisy and so on.... Tara considered Buffy as human being not as "killer machine"... Buffy had total faith in Tara:I don't know but they created a spacial bond 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

I think that Buffy has no best friends like Faith:

I won't go this far. Willow was Buffy's Tara up until S6. Buffy told her everything. And Willow never judged. Faith never had a Willow.

Also, Buffy had people like Xander and Giles who lifted her spirits when she was down with beautiful speeches and looked up to her.

 

[Fuffy]

I would say Buffy's best friend is Willow, it's clear that she's closer to her than Giles or Xander.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Every time Buffy made a mistake (or what Willow perceived as a mistake) she was there criticizing and telling her what a bad person she was. Such as, not telling when Angel was back, causing magic to go kaput, etc. Dead Man's Party as was previously said. With Spike in Season 10.

Her first inclination is to act holier than thou, rather than with forgiveness or acceptance that Buffy made a mistake.

Hmm that sounds more like Xander to me than Willow. Willow may have had her faults and was upset with Buffy at times, but I would consider Xander to be the one that acted holier than thou.
 
I think Buffy's bestfriend in s1-5 was Willow. Buffy told Willow things that she would never tell Giles or Xander, and the same goes for Willow. Honestly, I have no idea why Willow or Buffy were/are friends with Xander. He was so judgmental and obsessive. He thought he was God's greatest gift to earth lol. I just never got why two powerful women would give him the time of day.

In s6 and s7 it was probably Spike. He always understood her better than anyone else even in s3 in "Lover's Walk" where he gives his you'll never be friends speech to her and Angel. He is the only one she can confide in after dying. I don't really ship them romantically, but I love their unapologetically honest bond. They aren't afraid to tell each other the ugly truth. He was there for her when her mom was sick and died. They were great and horrible for each other all wrapped up into one. Great as friends. Horrible as lovers.

I haven't started the comics yet, so some of this could have changed. I also feel like I will always go more with what they show portrays over the comics even when I do read them.

 

[sosa lola]

Honestly, I have no idea why Willow or Buffy were/are friends with Xander. He was so judgmental and obsessive. He thought he was God's greatest gift to earth lol. I just never got why two powerful women would give him the time of day.

Maybe because they enjoy his sense of humor, maybe 'cause he's a good company, many 'cause he drives them to whatever they want on his car, maybe 'cause he fixes Buffy's house for free every time it crashes, maybe 'cause he's always there when Buffy or Willow needs him to do something for her to save the world or RL matters, maybe 'cause he's been a rock to both of them when they were at their lowest and provided a good confidence boosting speech, or maybe just maybe it was because he had sacrificed his life and put it in danger uncountable times to save theirs, three examples:

1) Prophecy Girl, without Xander, Buffy would have been dead.
2) Inca Mummy Girl, Xander offered his life to save Willow's.
3) The Replacement, Xander pushed Buffy out of harm's way and got hit by Toth's stick instead.

Friends have imperfections, Buffy and Willow were terrible friends to Xander at times too, but that doesn't mean that their bad outnumbers their good. For every bad Xander moment, there are twenty good ones. Besides, Xander changes and grows up a lot throughout the show. By S7, he was one of the few mature characters, even maturer than Giles himself. And it continues that way in the comic seasons.

I haven't started the comics yet, so some of this could have changed. I also feel like I will always go more with what they show portrays over the comics even when I do read them.

Interestingly, Xander was Buffy's best friend in S8. She told him things she told no one and trusted him with things she trusted no one.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Maybe because they enjoy his sense of humor, maybe 'cause he's a good company, many 'cause he drives them to whatever they want on his car, maybe 'cause he fixes Buffy's house for free every time it crashes, maybe 'cause he's always there when Buffy or Willow needs him to do something for her to save the world or RL matters, maybe 'cause he's been a rock to both of them when they were at their lowest and provided a good confidence boosting speech, or maybe just maybe it was because he had sacrificed his life and put it in danger uncountable times to save theirs, three examples:

1) Prophecy Girl, without Xander, Buffy would have been dead.
2) Inca Mummy Girl, Xander offered his life to save Willow's.
3) The Replacement, Xander pushed Buffy out of harm's way and got hit by Toth's stick instead.

Friends have imperfections, Buffy and Willow were terrible friends to Xander at times too, but that doesn't mean that their bad outnumbers their good. For every bad Xander moment, there are twenty good ones. Besides, Xander changes and grows up a lot throughout the show. By S7, he was one of the few mature characters, even maturer than Giles himself. And it continues that way in the comic seasons.




Interestingly, Xander was Buffy's best friend in S8. She told him things she told no one and trusted him with things she trusted no one.

Hmm, well since I haven't read the comics, I can't have an opinion on that.

I'm not saying that he hasn't done some selfless and good things, but in s1-3, I'm not sure why they allowed him to be such a pompous brat. He whined over Buffy's relationship with Angel, which was none of his business. He treated Buffy like crap when she didn't want him. He lead Willow on, then dated Cordy and then once Willow got with Oz, Xander acted like Willow was supposed to be his. He also basically attempted to rape Buffy in s1 in the Hyena episode, then lies about not remembering it instead of apologizing. Most people seem to have no issues with this, but get all in a tisy over Spike doing the same thing, except Oh wait, he actually went and got a soul to make up for how horribly he behaved.
Oh and even once you think Xander has matured, he has the audacity to ask Buffy to spare Anya when in s3 he told Buffy to "kick his ass" referring to Angel when he knew Willow was going to ensoul him. Regardless of her feelings or his, he should have told her that Willow was casting that spell so maybe she could have stalled him longer. Obviously Buffy had no issues with killing a souled Angel. It was not Xander's place to choose what info needed to be given to Buffy. But, when it's his gf wreaking havoc by choice (not due to the loss of a soul by accident) he expects Buffy to save her.

It's fine if you like Xander and if you think his good deeds outweighs his poor treatment of his friends, but I don't. I think he was a terrible friend the majority of the time.
I mean you are just a crappy person if you don't attempt to save someone you supposedly care about that is in need like the 3 examples you gave. But, Buffy saved Cordy countless of times, and as I recall they didn't even like each other. You don't have to like someone or be a friend to someone to help them. Being a good friend is about treating each other with mutual respect which Xander doesn't do IMO.

 

[Xanderectomy]

Hmm, well since I haven't read the comics, I can't have an opinion on that.

I'm not saying that he hasn't done some selfless and good things, but in s1-3, I'm not sure why they allowed him to be such a pompous brat. He whined over Buffy's relationship with Angel, which was none of his business. He treated Buffy like crap when she didn't want him. He lead Willow on, then dated Cordy and then once Willow got with Oz, Xander acted like Willow was supposed to be his. He also basically attempted to rape Buffy in s1 in the Hyena episode, then lies about not remembering it instead of apologizing. Most people seem to have no issues with this, but get all in a tisy over Spike doing the same thing, except Oh wait, he actually went and got a soul to make up for how horribly he behaved.
Oh and even once you think Xander has matured, he has the audacity to ask Buffy to spare Anya when in s3 he told Buffy to "kick his ass" referring to Angel when he knew Willow was going to ensoul him. Regardless of her feelings or his, he should have told her that Willow was casting that spell so maybe she could have stalled him longer. Obviously Buffy had no issues with killing a souled Angel. It was not Xander's place to choose what info needed to be given to Buffy. But, when it's his gf wreaking havoc by choice (not due to the loss of a soul by accident) he expects Buffy to save her.

It's fine if you like Xander and if you think his good deeds outweighs his poor treatment of his friends, but I don't. I think he was a terrible friend the majority of the time.
I mean you are just a crappy person if you don't attempt to save someone you supposedly care about that is in need like the 3 examples you gave. But, Buffy saved Cordy countless of times, and as I recall they didn't even like each other. You don't have to like someone or be a friend to someone to help them. Being a good friend is about treating each other with mutual respect which Xander doesn't do IMO.

I Would agree that Xander in the highschool seasons (specially s3) was kind of a dick but Xander from S4-S7 was easily one of my favourite characters he had such massive growth through out these season (yes even though his arc isnt as flashy as the other characters) and how exactly is Xander a terrible friend i mean he had no powers of any kind and he still risked his life every week to be there with Buffy, If someone risked there life everyday to help me fight evil i wouldn't exactly call them a poor friend and i love how you conveniently don't mention the time he saved the world without any sort of powers.Xander does have his faults like the scene in becoming pt.2 but i feel like thats the only thing people latch on to while criticizing Xander and that was him as a teenager and he makes up for his mistakes multiple times after this and Xander was not wrong in defending Anya in Selfless what else do u expect him to do and lets not forget Buffy risk everyones lives only episodes later by keeping Spike in the house even though he being used by The First.

 

[sosa lola]

He lead Willow on, then dated Cordy and then once Willow got with Oz, Xander acted like Willow was supposed to be his.

Xander was attracted to Buffy, Willow and Cordelia at the same time but to different degrees. He didn't handle any of those relationships well, I agree about that. However, the end result, he lost all three girls in the sense that he didn't end up with any of them. The show acknowledges that he behaved badly and he learned from those experiences: he admitted to Buffy in Amends that he was never a good friend when it came to Angel and helped her save Angel from that moment on, he and Willow stopped being close after they were caught and he clearly felt guilty concerning Oz in that episode with Hansel and Gretel. He bought Cordelia her prom dress and told no one about her family problems - he could have seized that moment to get back at Cordelia for talking about his home life when he had told her before to keep it a secret, but he didn't stoop that low.

He also basically attempted to rape Buffy in s1 in the Hyena episode, then lies about not remembering it instead of apologizing. Most people seem to have no issues with this, but get all in a tisy over Spike doing the same thing, except Oh wait, he actually went and got a soul to make up for how horribly he behaved.

Both situations are different. Xander was possessed against his consent, AKA didn't have to free will to act. Spike was the same Spike who protected Dawn, same Spike who helped save the world, he was not possessed. I'd argue that Xander was a victim in The Pack, the same way Jenny was a victim in The Dark Age, and she did attempt to rape Giles at his apartment, Jenny was treated as a victim in that episode and no one expected her to apologize for something she had no control over, why different rules apply to Xander?

Oh and even once you think Xander has matured, he has the audacity to ask Buffy to spare Anya when in s3 he told Buffy to "kick his ass" referring to Angel when he knew Willow was going to ensoul him.

That episode was a turning point for Xander's character development. He was finally put in the same shoes as Buffy - notice that right after that episode Xander takes Spike in as a roommate and never accuses Spike of turning evil when Anya and Dawn were weary of him in Never Leave Me.

It's fine if you like Xander and if you think his good deeds outweighs his poor treatment of his friends, but I don't. I think he was a terrible friend the majority of the time.
I mean you are just a crappy person if you don't attempt to save someone you supposedly care about that is in need like the 3 examples you gave. But, Buffy saved Cordy countless of times, and as I recall they didn't even like each other. You don't have to like someone or be a friend to someone to help them.

I agree.

Being a good friend is about treating each other with mutual respect which Xander doesn't do IMO.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Xander showed Buffy and Willow a lot of respect in the majority of episodes - Xander following Buffy's lead without any questions outnumbers the times he disagreed with her. Xander electing Willow as their leader after Buffy's death shows a lot of respect.

 

[Xanderectomy]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Xander showed Buffy and Willow a lot of respect in the majority of episodes - Xander following Buffy's lead without any questions outnumbers the times he disagreed with her. Xander electing Willow as their leader after Buffy's death shows a lot of respect.

Yay! a fellow Xander fan