Buffy's 'coming out'

[EarthLogic]

On rewatching 'Dead Things' and 'Older and Far Away' I was intrigued by Tara's use of a 'coming out' analogy for Buffy revealing her relationship with Spike. She mentions it in OAFA and a reference was cut from the script of DT.

I think there are definitely parallels between what Buffy is going through and the LGBT process of coming out - there's the sense of breaking taboo and revealing your involvement with something others might consider socially/morally unacceptable. There's also the idea of revealing an essential part of one's (sexual) identity.

However I wondered what people thought about it considering the fact that the relationship was portrayed and is largely considered as unhealthy and ultimately detrimental to Buffy's wellbeing. Does anyone feel that invoking this parallel is problematic in light of this, since coming out as LGBT is about getting people to accept an aspect of yourself as an inherently positive thing?

*any LGBT members - feel free to correct me on any assumptions if need be.

 

[Puppet]

Hmm, it's a very interesting theory, and not the first time I've heard of it, either. As an LGBT member, I find the theory believable but not offensive, though that could be because I'm a Spuffy shipper and don't find that relationship quite as 'bad' as non-Spuffy shippers. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words, but let me give it a try, lol.

I definitely see the parallel, saw it a long time ago, probably around the time I was struggling with coming out myself, since it would have been right around the time S6 originally aired. I don't think I ever saw it as being a bad analogy, never saw it as detrimental to the LGBT community, though I suppose I'd understand if others saw it that way. Since it's merely a parallel, and not actually the story of Buffy coming out as gay, it becomes less offensive (imo). BtVS is known for drawing parallels to other situations so, to me, this is just yet another example of that.

Hope that came out right 🙂

 

[EarthLogic]

Hmm, it's a very interesting theory, and not the first time I've heard of it, either. As an LGBT member, I find the theory believable but not offensive, though that could be because I'm a Spuffy shipper and don't find that relationship quite as 'bad' as non-Spuffy shippers. I'm not entirely sure how to put this into words, but let me give it a try, lol.

I definitely see the parallel, saw it a long time ago, probably around the time I was struggling with coming out myself, since it would have been right around the time S6 originally aired. I don't think I ever saw it as being a bad analogy, never saw it as detrimental to the LGBT community, though I suppose I'd understand if others saw it that way. Since it's merely a parallel, and not actually the story of Buffy coming out as gay, it becomes less offensive (imo). BtVS is known for drawing parallels to other situations so, to me, this is just yet another example of that.

Hope that came out right 🙂

No that's great, thanks!

I definitely think it's an angle that's been explored in Whedon academia (I'd be very surprised if it hadn't by now) but I haven't yet delved much into queer readings of the show so I wasn't sure of the different ways it has been perceived. It's only just come to my attention now as it has been a very long time since I've watched the later seasons.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I don't think it is a good analogy. LGBT people should not have to feel that kind of solidarity with people who willingly engage in unhealthy relationships. I also don't think Tara is suggesting there is an equivalence.

Of course, Tara's experiences as a gay woman has probably help her develop an open and emphatic mind.

 

[EarthLogic]

I don't think it is a good analogy. LGBT people should not have to feel that kind of solidarity with people who willingly engage in unhealthy relationships. I also don't think Tara is suggesting there is an equivalence.

Of course, Tara's experiences as a gay woman has probably help her develop an open and emphatic mind.

No I don't think Tara herself is suggesting an equivalence, but the text may be doing so with its deliberate use of that language.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

No I don't think Tara herself is suggesting an equivalence, but the text may be doing so with its deliberate use of that language.

I disagree. It is very common to use that kind of language for things that are not equivalent. For example, someone could 'come out' to their friends as a bulimic. Someone may refer to themselves as a closet-smoker. Being gay does not give you cancer, though. And being gay is not really comparable to dating an obsessive vampire whose only inhibition is a brain implant.

That being said, it could still be interesting to discuss the way those scenarios are comparable.

 

[EarthLogic]

I disagree. It is very common to use that kind of language for things that are not equivalent. For example, someone could 'come out' to their friends as a bulimic. Someone may refer to themselves as a closet-smoker. Being gay does not give you cancer, though. And being gay is not really comparable to dating an obsessive vampire whose only inhibition is a brain implant.

It is common in colloquial speech, but in a work of literature, the language is chosen for a reason and that makes it worth examining.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

It is common in colloquial speech, but in a work of literature, the language is chosen for a reason and that makes it important and therefore worth examining.

Good point. And sorry. I hate being Mr. Dismissive-Person. The fact that they use that language and that Tara is the confidant would make one draw that comparison and it may have been something the writers intended for us to do.

 

[TriBel]

However I wondered what people thought about it considering the fact that the relationship was portrayed and is largely considered as unhealthy and ultimately detrimental to Buffy's wellbeing. Does anyone feel that invoking this parallel is problematic in light of this, since coming out as LGBT is about getting people to accept an aspect of yourself as an inherently positive thing?

*any LGBT members - feel free to correct me on any assumptions if need be.

There is a definite parallel posited (by the text if not by Tara) and it's the reason I think the Spike/Buffy relationship is ultimately a progressive one (I don't see it as negatively as you do - I don't think it was intrinsically unhealthy - circumstances made it so). I'm straight so I can't say how LGBT members view it but my twins sons are both gay and they have no problem with the analogy. As far as I'm aware, queer theorists such as Stockton have applied "queerness" to groups who are othered by their distance from the normative - not by sexual orientation. If a vampire/slayer relation is anything - it's extreme in terms of binaries. Regardless of how you feel about the relationship, it's a radical reconfiguration of existing psychosocial structures - most significantly in its questioning of the abject and abjection.

the language is chosen for a reason and that makes it worth examining

. I think this applies throughout but is incredibly important in S7. IMO 7 illustrates the paucity of language - much of what is said in 7 is lacking or second-hand - language is shown to be inadequate. Wilcox has a very good essay in Why Buffy Matters on this (though I tend to disagree with her conclusion).

 

[thrasherpix]

I think Tara is saying that she can understand about hiding a relationship that others would not approve of, not making a statement of equivalency, and checking the scripts (as I'm not going to watch those episodes right now or anytime soon), I don't think it was intended by the writers to be anything other than that. I don't think it's problematic because of how I believe Tara meant it.

However, I would not particularly care for it if the Spuffy was equated with a gay relationship (unless it was on the abuse and other dynamics of a specific gay relationship rather than being gay). While one could say Buffy being with vampires is an equivalent, Buffy didn't have to hide her relationship with Angel when it happened so that wouldn't work either.

And as a side note, Willow and Xander cheated with each other knowing it was wrong but apparently unable to stop, and they should be able to relate more to Buffy's situation than Tara did (though at least Willow and Xander weren't all messed up about it like Spuffy other than the cheating itself).

 

[TriBel]

@EarthLogic - there's also the "it's like a gay bar but with demons" in Potentials. TBH, I'm much more uncomfortable with this overt comparison than I am with a structural one. @thrasherpix - I agree with the remark about Angel but structurally Angel is different because he is much more clearly defined by his own other - Angelus. Spike is uncanny (as is Dracula) because he blurs boundaries. In fact, I've just noticed this in Barbara Creed's "Phallic Panic" - Dracula is monstrous because he "threatens phallic heterosexuality...he is the thing that lies beneath". It's this that 7 unpacks and this unpacking begins in 6. As I said, I don't like overt equations but structurally it's sort of inevitable because the vampire myth evolved - in part - to address what are psychosocially figured as "unruly sexualities". As such, it's less to do with "being gay" than it is do with questioning the rigid definitions upon which patriarchy rests.

 

[Dora]

Personally I do not think it has anything at all with being Gay its just Tara using the term of telling someone something you have kept a secrete .Although Buffy is occasionally using Spike for self harming when she is at a particularly at a low point , she does not understand why she keeps letting Spike in , why she lets him let him do those things to her
Buffy has told the one person she feels she can tell, to tell anybody about you being sexual abuse is hard believe me , it shows how dissociated from the Scoobies she feels

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

IMHO I would assume it's just Tara using a phrase and concept she's familiar with for exposing a relationship. It would be as Tara said "Xander outed Dawn on her crush on so and so." Just like how Willow occasionally uses Jewish terminology, or the Trokia talked about Nerd stuff. I think the Season 2 Vampire Slayer unnatural relationship was the least of Buffy's problems in season 6.

 

[November]

I think there are definitely parallels between what Buffy is going through and the LGBT process of coming out - there's the sense of breaking taboo and revealing your involvement with something others might consider socially/morally unacceptable. There's also the idea of revealing an essential part of one's (sexual) identity.

Breaking the moral taboo is not restricted to LGBT, but it is largely restricted to women. Xander never faced such disapproval, even though his demon has likely murdered more than Spike. The sexual issues you bring up are women's issues not restricted to LGBT. It feels like it is starting to become socially unacceptable not to identify yourself by sexual orientation or family choices.

I disagree. It is very common to use that kind of language for things that are not equivalent. For example, someone could 'come out' to their friends as a bulimic. Someone may refer to themselves as a closet-smoker.

Exactly.

think Tara is saying that she can understand about hiding a relationship that others would not approve of, not making a statement of equivalency, and checking the scripts (as I'm not going to watch those episodes right now or anytime soon), I don't think it was intended by the writers to be anything other than that

Again I agree.

Spuffy started in a need to feel - I am more inclined to agree with @Dora that it is more typical of a self harm behaviour than to be compared to the reveal of a loving relationship of any sexual orientation.

 

[Alittlegrim]

This is an interesting point and something that has been mentioned before, like when Xander says "I guess a guy has to be dead to make time with ya" when she turns him down. He is being mean but he isn't wrong. Other than Riley the only long-term relationships she has had were with Angel and Spike. It seems to be a theme that points to a specific orientation. The parallels to homosexuality are quite astute. Though I do not believe this is meant to show homosexuality in a negative light. While the relationship with Spike as shown as being destructive and maybe even abusive, it absolutely was not that way with Angel. At least when he was good. They loved each other as much as Tara and Willow do, admittedly with the added priviso that they can't have sex lest he loses his soul again. Though overall I think the analogy is accurate and shows the realationships associated with this sexuality as being more or less like any other, with with the potential deep love and disturbing issues.

 

[RagnarockerB]

I think the process is paralleled but I don't think the text is meant to equate Buffy's relationship with Spike with being queer. Throughout the season arc I think the writers are trying to suggest that while Buffy struggles to deal with the realities of moving from an idyllic state of being to the harshness of adulthood, and while Spike is trying to reconcile his violent nature with his new found love for Buffy, the two of them represent the dysfunctional couple. The toxic relationship. A romantic bond between people who are very, very good at hurting each other (although, welp, Spike much more so than Buffy thanks to that Bathroom scene).

If such is the case then there are parallel in the processes of coming out as gay, lesbian, bi, trans or genderqueer, and coming out with the information that you are in a toxic relationship.

On another note, the phrase "coming out" was also tossed around when Buffy had to come out to her mom as The Slayer, which from Joyce's dialogue has a lot of parallels with coming out as queer. Maybe it's the writers being very lazy and trying to insert emotion into the text by equating it to a real-life process, or maybe there's some indication that Buffy could actually be a little queer herself. I'm sure someone has it in their headcanon that coming out as gay drove Buffy insane and that led her to invent delusions of being a monster slayer as she rotted in a psych ward.

I lean more on the side of the writers being a little lazy and using queer terminology as short hand to further the story, and I don't think that Buffy's several "coming out"s have been much more than short parallels with little meaning.

Then again, Buffy and Faith have some ungodly sexual tension at times so, you know. Fuffy confirmed...?