Buffy's Death
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TheChosenOne
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Showtime wouldn't count. If you read back what N4H asked he states ...
We know that the First was well aware who Buffy was and where she lived and as he was the one who sent the Turok Han, as well as the Bringers a couple of episodes before, then this instance wouldn't apply.
We know that the First was well aware who Buffy was and where she lived and as he was the one who sent the Turok Han, as well as the Bringers a couple of episodes before, then this instance wouldn't apply.
SlayerThe
My
Actually, I believe that Dracula had most likely heard of Buffy by name. I mean, c'mon now, the girl is practically world-renowned as a slayer.
Plus, we never saw Dracula try anything apocalyptic in Sunnydale; his main focus seemed to be Buffy. If he had came to the Hellmouth for anything but Buffy then we probably would have seen his plan for destruction, but we didn't.
I mean, why wouldn't he have heard of Buffy by name? She had been the slayer for around six years, and she had taken out some incredible foes (e.g. the Master) that Dracula could have heard about. And not to forget that this was when Buffy peaked at her power and began to patrol every night after her incident with the first slayer.
As for the debate about the tombstone, it's Sunnydale after all. I hardly doubt anyone would care about someone ordering a tombstone or coffin for that matter without proper certification because these are the people who still live in the town after a big snake tries to eat the graduating class, a dragon flies out of a portal, and a building is completely taken down and replaced with some strange looking creatures from another dimension.
Plus, we never saw Dracula try anything apocalyptic in Sunnydale; his main focus seemed to be Buffy. If he had came to the Hellmouth for anything but Buffy then we probably would have seen his plan for destruction, but we didn't.
I mean, why wouldn't he have heard of Buffy by name? She had been the slayer for around six years, and she had taken out some incredible foes (e.g. the Master) that Dracula could have heard about. And not to forget that this was when Buffy peaked at her power and began to patrol every night after her incident with the first slayer.
As for the debate about the tombstone, it's Sunnydale after all. I hardly doubt anyone would care about someone ordering a tombstone or coffin for that matter without proper certification because these are the people who still live in the town after a big snake tries to eat the graduating class, a dragon flies out of a portal, and a building is completely taken down and replaced with some strange looking creatures from another dimension.
nerd4hire
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Giles tells the Scoobs to keep the fact Buffy is a Slayer quiet. Why?
Spike doesn't appear to know what a Buffy is when he first arrives in Sunnydale, although he does know about slayers. Spike hung out in the same circles as Dracula and he's a little obsessed about slayers. Wouldn't he know everything that was general knowledge concerning the Sunnydale slayer?
David Greenwalt helped create BTVS from it's inception. In the Greenwalt penned episode Faith, Hope and Trick, here's how much Trick and Kakistos know about Buffy as Slayer -
Spike doesn't appear to know what a Buffy is when he first arrives in Sunnydale, although he does know about slayers. Spike hung out in the same circles as Dracula and he's a little obsessed about slayers. Wouldn't he know everything that was general knowledge concerning the Sunnydale slayer?
David Greenwalt helped create BTVS from it's inception. In the Greenwalt penned episode Faith, Hope and Trick, here's how much Trick and Kakistos know about Buffy as Slayer -
SlayerThe
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nerd4hire said:
I see a problem with this:
Spike arrived 3 years before Dracula, and 2 years after Trick and KissingToast.
During the time of Spike's arrival and Dracula's arrival, Buffy had defeated Angel and stopped Acathla from rising, as well as many other battles.
Although I would think her most famous feat (with the vamp-inclined) would have been killing the Master.
nerd4hire
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Just trying to establish where canon originally stands on this.
Giles and the Scoobs want to keep knowledge of Buffy being the Slayer a secret as much as possible. For the most part they succeed.
Now let's get into it though, because this continues into future seasons.
The Freshman written by Joss Whedon
Sunday doesn't appear to know at first Buffy is the Slayer, until she sees her dust one of her vamp crew.
Sunday has been able to hunt at the college campus at will, because the slayer is in town, and in high-school. If that was about to change wouldn't a smart cookie like Sunday keep her eyes peeled for Buffy Summers. We know she can find her by name if she wants to, because later she does just that.
Sunday tells her crew Buffy won't last the night and sends her crew to the tunnels. Not to the dorm, to the tunnels. The tunnels are where they hunt. They can gather information there.
Buffy goes to town to her mother's house. When she returns to the dorm she finds this note in her empty room-
*
The initiative don't know Buffy is the Slayer at first.
*
From The Real Me by David Fury
*
Demons don't appear to know where she lives, but they do know she hangs out at the Magic Shop. In the replacement by Jane Espenson Toth first looks for the Slayer there.
Other groups who do not seem to know to look for Buffy at her house when hunting her in Season 5 are the demon gang who's nest she burns down, and the Knights of Byzantium.
Later in Family by Joss Whedon the Lei-Ach also seek Buffy at the Magic Shop.
*
In Family Glory discovers Buffy is a Slayer from the Lei-Ach demon.
*
In Flooded in Season 6 by Jane Espenson the M'Fashnik demon obviously doesn't know Buffy is the Slayer. He wants to kill the Slayer, but Warren has to give him her address so he'll know where to find her.
*
Surely the 2 vampire teenagers in All the Way don't know Dawn is the Slayer's sister, cause if they do, they're the dumbest vampires on record.
*
In Once More With Feeling Sweet has to be told Dawn is the Slayer's sister.
*
In fact even Marti Noxon appears to know where canon stands on this issue when it suits her. In Villains by Marti Noxon, demons have been sitting in a bar watching television. There has been a news story covering a girl shot in her backyard. Addresses and or names are normally given out with such stories, but the writer who told us Buffy's name is so famous it has reached all four corners of the world now tells us the local demons don't know that the shot girl is the Slayer until Warren tells them.
Giles and the Scoobs want to keep knowledge of Buffy being the Slayer a secret as much as possible. For the most part they succeed.
Now let's get into it though, because this continues into future seasons.
The Freshman written by Joss Whedon
Sunday doesn't appear to know at first Buffy is the Slayer, until she sees her dust one of her vamp crew.
Sunday has been able to hunt at the college campus at will, because the slayer is in town, and in high-school. If that was about to change wouldn't a smart cookie like Sunday keep her eyes peeled for Buffy Summers. We know she can find her by name if she wants to, because later she does just that.
Sunday tells her crew Buffy won't last the night and sends her crew to the tunnels. Not to the dorm, to the tunnels. The tunnels are where they hunt. They can gather information there.
Buffy goes to town to her mother's house. When she returns to the dorm she finds this note in her empty room-
*
The initiative don't know Buffy is the Slayer at first.
*
From The Real Me by David Fury
*
Demons don't appear to know where she lives, but they do know she hangs out at the Magic Shop. In the replacement by Jane Espenson Toth first looks for the Slayer there.
Other groups who do not seem to know to look for Buffy at her house when hunting her in Season 5 are the demon gang who's nest she burns down, and the Knights of Byzantium.
Later in Family by Joss Whedon the Lei-Ach also seek Buffy at the Magic Shop.
*
In Family Glory discovers Buffy is a Slayer from the Lei-Ach demon.
*
In Flooded in Season 6 by Jane Espenson the M'Fashnik demon obviously doesn't know Buffy is the Slayer. He wants to kill the Slayer, but Warren has to give him her address so he'll know where to find her.
*
Surely the 2 vampire teenagers in All the Way don't know Dawn is the Slayer's sister, cause if they do, they're the dumbest vampires on record.
*
In Once More With Feeling Sweet has to be told Dawn is the Slayer's sister.
*
In fact even Marti Noxon appears to know where canon stands on this issue when it suits her. In Villains by Marti Noxon, demons have been sitting in a bar watching television. There has been a news story covering a girl shot in her backyard. Addresses and or names are normally given out with such stories, but the writer who told us Buffy's name is so famous it has reached all four corners of the world now tells us the local demons don't know that the shot girl is the Slayer until Warren tells them.
D
doppelgänger2
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Amber Benson
Currently Pending
As a side note to the "tombstone saga", they could have gotten a normal tombstone, without rousing any suspicions. People do it all the time, and as far as I know, a death would never be publicized unless family members wanted so... It's not like the "tombstone maker" or whatever would start the juicy gossip trail about Buffy's death...
And as for her being known throughout the demon world, I'm pretty sure news of Buffy killing the Master would have spread like wildfire... Like the episode Freshman (Season 4), when the vampire creeped up behind Willow and Buffy, only to see that she was the Slayer, then turned and ran... Most "rookie" vamps would start to hear the rumours and try to keep as far away from her as possible...
And as for her being known throughout the demon world, I'm pretty sure news of Buffy killing the Master would have spread like wildfire... Like the episode Freshman (Season 4), when the vampire creeped up behind Willow and Buffy, only to see that she was the Slayer, then turned and ran... Most "rookie" vamps would start to hear the rumours and try to keep as far away from her as possible...
Amber Benson
Currently Pending
Ah right! Hmm I guess that would be the question... But, in repect to that, not EVERY vampire has to make the connection Buffy Summers=Slayer... It's just the way spreading rumors goes... People names are often shadowed by their reputation, in the sense that no one needs to know exactly who you are, just what you did.... So, saying that in some episodes, some people knew exactly who Buffy was, name and all, when in others they were totally clueless doesn't entirely mean anything... Information seems to be a privilege...
And yea, he does leave because of the weapons... But that just proves more into the theory of the stories of the Slayer... What other girl would carry such items, unless she was the Slayer or a close companion?
And yea, he does leave because of the weapons... But that just proves more into the theory of the stories of the Slayer... What other girl would carry such items, unless she was the Slayer or a close companion?
nerd4hire
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Again though, this is my point.
Buffy and her inner circle prefer to keep the knowledge she (Buffy Summers) is the slayer a secret. For the most part they succeed, as has been shown from multiple examples above.
The vampire in the example you gave above did not rise from the grave and say "Oh no, it's Buffy Summers, and she's the slayer". It rose from the grave, saw a bag full of weaponry, and thought to look for lunch elsewhere.
And actually...just to quibble here, vampires don't rise from the grave knowing about the slayer.
We see this when Holden meets Buffy in CWDP -
Buffy and her inner circle prefer to keep the knowledge she (Buffy Summers) is the slayer a secret. For the most part they succeed, as has been shown from multiple examples above.
The vampire in the example you gave above did not rise from the grave and say "Oh no, it's Buffy Summers, and she's the slayer". It rose from the grave, saw a bag full of weaponry, and thought to look for lunch elsewhere.
And actually...just to quibble here, vampires don't rise from the grave knowing about the slayer.
We see this when Holden meets Buffy in CWDP -
Amber Benson
Currently Pending
See, that's entirely opinionated though. It might sound far-fetched, but we don't know the circumstances of most of the vampires. It's completely possible that some "people" can figure it out. Ford did, and they weren't even in Sunnydale (which to me, with more evil, makes things like a Slayer quite believable)... Ford rose with the knowledge of Buffy as the Slayer... And Faith knew, with just one look at Buffy... I'm not trying to say they weren't trying to hide it, or that it just radiated off of her, so everyone knew who she was, name and all, just that it seems some people were more perceptive than others...
SlayerThe
My
This happens a lot.
There are probably a lot of demons and vampires who know Buffy by name, but remember, not everyone would hear the same details. For example, there are plenty of people who know about certain celebrities, but then again, there are some who only recognize them by face and not by name. Get what I'm saying?
Not to mention that Dracula probably did research before arriving in Sunnydale.
I mean, Buffy is probably one of the most well-known slayers. Although, she could be known as the "one who used that rocket-launcher".
There are probably a lot of demons and vampires who know Buffy by name, but remember, not everyone would hear the same details. For example, there are plenty of people who know about certain celebrities, but then again, there are some who only recognize them by face and not by name. Get what I'm saying?
Not to mention that Dracula probably did research before arriving in Sunnydale.
I mean, Buffy is probably one of the most well-known slayers. Although, she could be known as the "one who used that rocket-launcher".
nerd4hire
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Amber Benson said:
Not opinion at all. It's a script fact. Vampires do not rise from the grave knowing what a slayer is, unless they had knowledge of the fact prior to their human death. Remember this one from Fool for Love -
Ford was a student of vampires and all connected lore. There are books in the Buffyverse that offer information on the vampire slayer. There was one in the Magic box at the time of The Real Me -
Ford knew Buffy from her vampire slaying days in LA. He knew she was the slayer at the time of his death. He would rise with all the knowledge he had as a human. That's canon.
Amber Benson
Currently Pending
See, that's exactly my point. I'm not trying to say that every vampire rises with the general knowledge of a Slayer, but that it gets passed along, just like you gave the example from Fool For Love... And that sometimes, they DO have prior knowledge of Buffy being the Slayer...
I think we're both debating the same side of the same point... but my ORIGINAL point is, Buffy's dying wasn't a huge cover-up, mainly because people don't read too far into things. They see the bot around, and they assume she's alive. Sunnydale is a small town, but it's not small enough for everyone to know your business... I believe the only thing they had to hide the death from was Hank, and Social Services (who would no doubt take Dawn away), and of course, the demons... But other than that, I don't think her death would have risen much of anything in the town... She's just another resident to the Hellmouth...
I think we're both debating the same side of the same point... but my ORIGINAL point is, Buffy's dying wasn't a huge cover-up, mainly because people don't read too far into things. They see the bot around, and they assume she's alive. Sunnydale is a small town, but it's not small enough for everyone to know your business... I believe the only thing they had to hide the death from was Hank, and Social Services (who would no doubt take Dawn away), and of course, the demons... But other than that, I don't think her death would have risen much of anything in the town... She's just another resident to the Hellmouth...
nerd4hire
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Amber Benson said:
The problem is though, that's just not true. I can say that with confidence, not because it's opinion, but again because it's a script fact. They did make a definite effort to hide the fact Buffy had died from the general human and underworld population. We know this, because they tell us so -
After that though we can make assumptions. Mine is, one of the reasons they wanted to keep Buffy's death a secret as much as possible was to avoid the news getting out through characters such as Jonathan, Warren, or Harmony who were aware of the Buffy/Slayer connection that if Buffy was dead, the slayer was dead.
We saw what happened when the Demon Biker gang found out the slayer was gone.
Amber Benson
Currently Pending
See, I don't think they did... Sure, it says, scriptually, that they intended on keeping it from the entire world, but did they really do such a thing? I know that my opinion isn't entirely structured behind script, but it's not entirely invalid either... I've been doing script anaylsis for almost as long as I've been able to read (okay, since 6th grade), and there is a lot of subtext that proves otherwise... In plain text, yes, they were running a cover-up of her death. But how well did they succeed? How hard did they actually try? They left a marked grave, and although it was in a secluded area, it must be frequented every once and a while... I mean, Willow found that spot for the "special ingredient" for the resurrection spell, and the demons were galavanting all over there when they came into town... And how long did they actually think they COULD keep it a secret? But, that's all venturing down a different debate road... All I'm saying is that they weren't keeping the cover-up like they had planned... Opinion-wise
doppelgänger2
Meh.
I'd have to say that I'm with N4H.
You can't argue against the fact that what we see in bargaining is a gang of slayer-hags trying to cover up Buffy's death by letting a robot version of her take her place.
This they do for, what I understand, two reasons: What Giles mentions about the world and the underworld (i.e. if the seedy underbelly of Sunnydale found out about the slayers death, they would do exactly what happened when they found out about the Buffybot) and because Dawn wanted to stay with the gang and not taken into custody by some one else or maybe be forced to move to her father.
As N4H mentioned, if for example Harmony found about Buffy's dead, you'd see the entire west coast population of vamps hit Sunnydale and it would have been so much worse than when the biker gang stormed into Sunnydale.
That's a pretty good reason to hide Buffy's death.
More important was the Dawn issue. I'm sure no one, not even Anya, would have liked Dawn be taken away from them. So keeping Buffy's death wasn't just about saving the people of Sunnydale, it was also about saving Dawn, in a way. Their love for Dawn kept them believing that they could keep her death a secret for as long as it was necessary.
But then we have Willow and her magic. I think that she knew from the moment she saw Buffy lying there on the ground on a pile of junk that she would bring her back, she was just waiting for the right moment to do so. When she broke this to the gang, which I think must have been quite a while before Bargaining took place, they suddenly realized that they wouldn't have to keep Buffy's death a secret for ever, which ment they could use the Buffybot until Buffy came back without no one ever knowing.
You can't argue against the fact that what we see in bargaining is a gang of slayer-hags trying to cover up Buffy's death by letting a robot version of her take her place.
This they do for, what I understand, two reasons: What Giles mentions about the world and the underworld (i.e. if the seedy underbelly of Sunnydale found out about the slayers death, they would do exactly what happened when they found out about the Buffybot) and because Dawn wanted to stay with the gang and not taken into custody by some one else or maybe be forced to move to her father.
As N4H mentioned, if for example Harmony found about Buffy's dead, you'd see the entire west coast population of vamps hit Sunnydale and it would have been so much worse than when the biker gang stormed into Sunnydale.
That's a pretty good reason to hide Buffy's death.
More important was the Dawn issue. I'm sure no one, not even Anya, would have liked Dawn be taken away from them. So keeping Buffy's death wasn't just about saving the people of Sunnydale, it was also about saving Dawn, in a way. Their love for Dawn kept them believing that they could keep her death a secret for as long as it was necessary.
But then we have Willow and her magic. I think that she knew from the moment she saw Buffy lying there on the ground on a pile of junk that she would bring her back, she was just waiting for the right moment to do so. When she broke this to the gang, which I think must have been quite a while before Bargaining took place, they suddenly realized that they wouldn't have to keep Buffy's death a secret for ever, which ment they could use the Buffybot until Buffy came back without no one ever knowing.
nerd4hire
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On script facts; Yes there are times when what's presented leaves room for interpretation. There are other times when there's no flexibility.
For example, Buffy is blond. We see she's blond. Other characters refer to her as being blond. We saw her as a young girl, and she was still blond. There is no reference or subtext suggesting the possibility she can be anything other than blond.
Now you may want to see her as having black hair. You may even force yourself to see her that way but the text is unequivocal. Buffy is blond.
Bargaining tells us in black and white language the Scoobs want to keep Buffy's death secret from humans and the underworld. They (the Scoobs) may not succeed as well as they would have hoped, but it is a fact they hoped to keep the secret. They said so. They gave us reasons why. We saw how they put the plan into action. There is no subtext suggesting why they might be lying. We are given no reason to doubt it, other than we don't want to believe it for personal reasons.
With the Dracula thing though, there's room for flexibility. Dracula knows Buffy is the slayer. That much is script fact. When we choose to believe whether, or not what he suggests about every demon in the world knowing Buffy is the slayer we can debate this, because as his been shown there are other script facts that contradict this. We can put these contradictions forward and suggest perhaps what Dracula says about this particular issue may be some sort of warping of the truth.
If there is something that contradicts the script fact the Scoobs wanted to keep Buffy's death a secret from humans and the underworld, I've yet to see it produced.
For example, Buffy is blond. We see she's blond. Other characters refer to her as being blond. We saw her as a young girl, and she was still blond. There is no reference or subtext suggesting the possibility she can be anything other than blond.
Now you may want to see her as having black hair. You may even force yourself to see her that way but the text is unequivocal. Buffy is blond.
Bargaining tells us in black and white language the Scoobs want to keep Buffy's death secret from humans and the underworld. They (the Scoobs) may not succeed as well as they would have hoped, but it is a fact they hoped to keep the secret. They said so. They gave us reasons why. We saw how they put the plan into action. There is no subtext suggesting why they might be lying. We are given no reason to doubt it, other than we don't want to believe it for personal reasons.
With the Dracula thing though, there's room for flexibility. Dracula knows Buffy is the slayer. That much is script fact. When we choose to believe whether, or not what he suggests about every demon in the world knowing Buffy is the slayer we can debate this, because as his been shown there are other script facts that contradict this. We can put these contradictions forward and suggest perhaps what Dracula says about this particular issue may be some sort of warping of the truth.
If there is something that contradicts the script fact the Scoobs wanted to keep Buffy's death a secret from humans and the underworld, I've yet to see it produced.
I_Luv_BtVs_725
Sam
I've always wondered that too... But about the Dracula thing, did he mean vampires knew her throughout the world? Is that waht you're saying? That vamps would recognize it? Or humans?